The Official Dark Nest III: The Swarm War Discussion Thread (spoilers allowed)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by The2ndQuest, Nov 27, 2005.

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  1. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    >>Umm, and?<<

    And nothing- that was a counterpoint to your counterforce comment.
  2. Quiet_Mandalorian Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2005
    star 5
    And doesn't Jaina have to take into account gravity then, as well as the aircraft itself and the actions of the pilot, all of which are working against her?[face_thinking]
  3. Master_Keralys Sometime Technical Aide and Erstwhile Lit Mod

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    No, not really. What she's going with the stick is with gravity, and anyways that's not what was being gotten at - it's that the Jedi do things counter to forces - even strong forces like gravity - on a fairly regular basis. [face_thinking]

    - Keralys
  4. Quiet_Mandalorian Force Ghost

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    Apr 19, 2005
    star 5
    I swear I'm going to figure out some way of turning this thing around...
  5. ConservativeSoldier Jedi Knight

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    Oct 1, 2005
    star 3
    Dedication. Perseverance. I like it.
  6. Quiet_Mandalorian Force Ghost

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    Apr 19, 2005
    star 5
    Vor'e, verd. Now if only I had discipline to go with all of that...
  7. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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  8. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    If it's so easy to manipulate objects like that, why didn't the Chosen One - who is, simply put, more powerful than Jaina could hope to be full stop back fangirls, back - and his Master, Obi-Wan Kenobi, just use the force to push the missiles into CIS cruisers? Why did Obi-Wan lose most of his systems to buzzdroids when he could have just lifted them off one by one or in groups?

    Bear in mind I know the precise answer, and that I'm probably trying to prove a point. :p

    E_S
  9. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    The argument about OR Jedi not using these mega powers because they're Jedi would seem a little silly considering Anakin had just turned to the Dark Side and had become a uber-poweful meglomaniac at that point, no? o_O
  10. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    Rule 0.

    ;)
  11. Ender Sai Chosen One

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    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    The answer was because it's 100 times a better story if they didn't.

    :p

    If a stunningly two-dimensional character like Jaina can do it, then yeah you'd want to believe the Chosen One and his pals could too. The fact they didn't kinda signifies to me at least that the author (Lucas, and to a degree the prequel authors) realised leaving the Force as a crutch is really quite boring.

    That is, it really hurt the story to have this supersonic power creep on display. Now perhaps fans wanted it, after having an enemy like the Vong which existed outside the Force (note: AWESOME CONCEPT!) but I felt it left you as far from the edge of your seat as humanly possible. I bring Zahn back into this to illustrate how fantastic an under-trained Jedi Knight, with a natural raw Force talent, can be without the Force. Luke escaped from Karrde's base using his innate skills and it really helped Zahn in that writing Luke without the Force made Luke a really kickass character. As in he took the previous incarnation of Luke, which was ROTJ, and he expanded on that.

    We don't really get that alot in this novel, and in a sense the characterisation sorta matches the rotating cast of the prequels; but novels should typically offer more depth. How many people read ROTS and thought, "Man, if only Anakin was like this in the movie!"? I know I did.

    So Jaina, now, is really just a Generic Jedi, doing Generic Jedi Superhero Stuff. It was like an arbitrary trade-off was forced; she can have a character or she can have Force Powers.

    People chose the latter.

    Jacen, for example, really shone most in Traitor where he was stripped of the Force. It fleshed out his character deeply and I get the feeling it's diverted away from where Stover inteded now but it really took an extreme situation for Jacen to becoming interesting.

    Which brings me to a question; does this Trilogy suggest that a person needs to be stripped of the Force, or lack the Force, to be interesting? Think about it, which character does Denning do best? Han - a non-Jedi...

    The rest are thoroughly interchangeable and that's one of my biggest gripes about the story. We expected good characters, we got cardboard cutouts with phenomenal powers.

    E+S

  12. EwokStromboli Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2004
    star 3
    Agree wholeheartedly.

    I think too many people get wrapped up in "Luke is too powerful/Luke isn't powerful enough" type of debates. Power/raw ability/whatever you want to call it isn't the only aspect of Luke's character. Another is resourcefulness, and Zahn demonstrates it beautifully in the Myrkr sequence/Hilliard City battle.
  13. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    >>why didn't the Chosen One... and his Master, Obi-Wan Kenobi, just use the force to push the missiles into CIS cruisers? Why did Obi-Wan lose most of his systems to buzzdroids when he could have just lifted them off one by one or in groups?<<

    That's actually a question I had about the film itself (at least as far as the buzz droids go)- there is no reason why they couldn't have force-shoved/flicked them off their fighters.

    As for the missiles- well, with Anakin I think he'd rather just show off with his piloting skills.
  14. Havac Former Moderator

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2005
    star 7
    I don't think that it's fair to say "The Jedi can't do that because in the movies in some parts, they don't do it and you'd think they should." Like it or not, the precedent has been set. You just have to retcon it like a good fan.;)
  15. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    The problem I have with that Havac is that it says, "Yes, we'll find a way to shoehorn this rubbish into the overall scheme of things, Mr Denning. And why not, we've made worse things fit into it" - in place of rejecting it for a higher standard.

    For example, you're saying if we order a medium rare steak and we get welldone, we might as well just eat it and find ways to cover up the different taste or pretend it's really as good as a medium rare.

    I can't do that; I'd rather authors simply wrote better rather than writing dumber and us lapping it up.

    E_S
  16. BENSKYWAKER Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2005
    star 4
    I think Troy Dening did a great job with all the characters and not just the non force sensitive ones...

    the whole why didn't they just force shove them off thing, well heres the reason...

    Not only is it a better story line but obi-won and anakin were under alot of presher with the whole about to die, must save the channcolor think...

    I really like this book EXEPT FOR THE COVER!!!It totally led me on, and then theres no force lighting at all??? What is up with that...

    The Jacen being interesting thing, well I don't like him any more, he used to be the kid that didn't want to fight and questioned the jedi morals...Which I liked...Now he is just a guy who thinks its ok to use your anger... I'm disapointed in him...
  17. Havac Former Moderator

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2005
    star 7
    E_S, the difference is twofold:
    A. We can't send SW back to the kitchen.
    B. The SW steak comes well-done half the time -- it's no freak occurrence. We can't ignore it or dismiss it as a flub. We have to accept that it is possible for Jedi to do these things, and we have to figure out why it wan't done in the movies.
    I acknowledge your point that powers for the sake of powers are bad, but I hesitate to say we can only go with what's shown in the movies. Characterization and powers are not mutually exclusive, although it may seem like that sometimes. Inventing powers as a deus ex machina crutch is no good, but using powers in a logical fashion is just fine with me.
  18. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Well I never meant we were beholden to the movies alone; IIRC Zahn invented some powers for his books. What he didn't do was use the force as a deus ex machina, which is what we have now.

    Lord no, I don't think the powers should be confined to the films because that leaves telekinesis, some dogdy foresight and some occasional healings. I think we're saying the same things Havac; but I'm less willing to acce[t the chaff with the wheat. ;)

    E_S
  19. Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare

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    star 6
    Ender_Sai: now you're just ticking me off. [face_shame_on_you] :p

    Everyone knows what you think. For all your admiration of the Qui-Gon/Yoda type of Jedi, you're behaving a lot more like Kyp Durron, loudly and persistently equating your opinion with the only valid POV.

    If this is how you read TSW, can you really make any claim to be offering an objective analysis?

    I really enjoyed TSW: it remained emphatically STAR WARS, but IMHO offered very subtle and emphatically human characters driving a convincing and compelling story - so what do you say to my analysis?

    Is it, perhaps, that TSW asks you to meditate on your opinion on what should be "right way up" for the Jedi?

    And isn't that a good thing?

    ***

    On the specific issue of the buzz-droids start of RotS - IMHO, this would be covered by stuff already discussed.

    The training of the Prequel-era Jedi stresses control and focus. Psychologically and technically, they're constrained from doing this sort of thing. Additionally, a Jedi Interceptor is designed around a Jedi pilot: it requires a lot of their focus simply to concentrate on flying - perhaps a deliberate tactic by Palpatine? Especially in a situation of complex chaos like the Battle of Coruscant, especially when the mere presence of the buzz droids serves to fray their focus, they probably can't just pluck them off...

    Put simply, Kenobi would regard it as a poor show to use his irritation to swat the buzz droids off. Jaina, on the other hand, has a different POV - albeit one that's no less "Jedi", equally human.

    - The Imperial Ewok
  20. Excellence Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 7

    Finished it today. Had some irritating issues ranging from major to minor, but still another great read, positively excellence in places. The biggest issue, aside from Lomi Plo's full name every time, was Jagged and Rar's deaths uncomfirmed. That's cheating readers of a trilogy of tension. The subplot with the baby hardly mattered for all the page time it got. Obviously, the fireworks will come in Betrayal, which is what, 5yrs later?


    Fans have raged over the minscule Skywalker you saw in that superficial NJO series. You just got a full trilogy of him, front stage and all. It's what you wanted, isn't it? Your beloved movie names back and kicking it, right? So lets forget the alien aspect of fried eggs in the books and enjoy what you wanted; Denning delivered the bomb.

    Are his Forgotten Realms books like this too?
  21. TheMillionDollarMan Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2005
    The last Forgotten Realms trilogy he wrote was poor, imo, with the last being awful (and containing on of the worst sequences ever). His first books were good though.
  22. Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare

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    Excellence: The biggest issue, aside from Lomi Plo's full name every time

    :p

    Hmm. Maybe "Lomi Plo" is a two-part given name name like "Tenel Ka" or "Kirana Ti"...? [face_thinking] o_O

    - The Imperial Ewok
  23. Quiet_Mandalorian Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2005
    star 5
    On the contrary. I would argue that Jaina's rampant display of Force-overkill throughout the book makes her markedy less human.

    It would be easy (or perhaps lazy) to assume that in doing such things, she becomes something more than merely human, but inevitably, all that emerges is cartoon caricature of a character, possessed of about as much emotional depth as the Roadrunner, powers ever expanding to her convenience.
  24. Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare

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    star 6
    </Sir Bedevere>ex-zactly!

    See, I would argue, that "less human" in this case is merely a term to describe what can happen to a human being.

    Sure, Jaina is dangerous, deadly, and powerful. There's a danger she'll make an Anakin-scale mess of everything, a danger she'll fall to the Dark Side, and also, on the more... personal level, that she'll be unable to function as a normal human being any more - a problem which we're already seeing in DN3. It's underlying. It's there. It's part of her.

    It's why a part of her is so happy to become Taat's lover, and Zekk's Nest-Queen.

    It's called characterization.

    But, in case you hadn't noticed, she's stronger, and more tangled than that.

    And why? All because she's trying so hard to save everyone she can. Because she cares. Because she's been hurt, and seen hurt.

    Because... she's human.

    Monsters are said to be the children of Cain. And Cain was a son of Adam.

    I don't think there's anything "mere" about humanity, unless you're referring to the messed-up straitjacket of psychological programming and cultural expectation that became roadkill on the front of the Sunulok in the middle of the NJO...

    And I definately don't think that when we see characters seared and transformed, tempered and forged in this way, they "inevitably" become cartoon caricatures.

    I'm highly amused by your echo of Zekk's description of Tenel Ka in Star by Star.

    They acquire more depth, more complexity... more humanity. Jaina has terrifying potential. Everyone does.

    And yet - still, stubbornly - she hangs on to something. You could even argue that that's the dynamo. The more she uses the Force, the tighter she grips, and the tighter she grips, the more she draws on the Force.

    She's not just some casual superheroine.

    Yes, Jaina is becoming "less human"; but - *deep breath*- I don't think I'm wrong when I say...

    That's.

    The.

    Kriffing.

    Point.

    *deep breath*

    Thank you.

    - The Imperial Ewok
  25. Quiet_Mandalorian Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2005
    star 5
    And, need I say it, a Monster must be slain by a Knight.

    And now you're missing the subtext? I was quite clearly employing sarcasm with the "mere".

    By my definition, when they begin to seemingly exist on the same level as Mace or Yoda in Clone Wars, i.e. employment of Force-powers on a somewhere-close-to-Exar-Kun-scale, legions of followers slaughtered in their wakes, expendable, faceless opponents imaginatively annihilated in numbers never before imagined...

    *shakes head*

    Haven't read that in a while, unfortunately.

    Read many X-men comics lately? Pre-Dark Phoenix Jean Grey seems like she might soon make a good comparison if things continue in this vein for very much longer.

    Agreed. Can we find some way to kill her now?
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