The Official Dark Nest III: The Swarm War Discussion Thread (spoilers allowed)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by The2ndQuest, Nov 27, 2005.

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  1. Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare

    VIP
    Member Since:
    May 9, 2000
    star 6
    What happened to human beings? :p

    Firstly, I'd suggest Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, the Epic of Gilgamesh, Grendel, Aragorn and the Army of the Dead, and the Star Wars trilogy as variously inverting expectations on that front...

    But that's almost irrelevant: Jaina has, to adapt Aryn Thul's words, "a good heart". I'd say she's still a knight.

    I'd definately say she's still a human being...

    Nevertheless, you seemed to be implying that humanity wasn't big enough to cope with what Jaina is becoming. I respectfully disagree.

    And you've read Shatterpoint recently?

    But Jaina is not, IMHO, supposed to be a simplistic hero(ine) who we root and cheerlead for as she cleaves her way Conan-style through armies of the enemy... for a start, she's too much of a threat to the male id - she can't really be an avatar of it in quite the same way...

    :p

    *nods*

    Good call. Which side are you on in this discussion, again? [face_thinking]

    The trouble is, she's all they've got. That's why she's the heroine. :D :cool:

    - The Imperial Ewok
  2. jedisolosticks Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 1
    That is a brillant post. You captured everything I love about Jaina. Her passion and her faults. If she was a bland perfect herione, I wouldn't be interested. To be honest, it's one reason I've fallen away from Leia. She's really perfect and how can anyone identify with that. Jaina is the lover and the fighter. She's also very complex which makes understanding her difficult. I think the dark nest showed Jaina's potential in the force, for good or for worse. Remember the dark nest was a precursor to Legacy. I think all the major characters are on a level playing field now, except for Luke. Each with their strengths and weakness to be exploited in the next series.
  3. Kenobi_Kid Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2005
    star 4
    I gotta go with QM on this one. Since TJK, Jaina's been in a bad way, and by TSW, her personality could probably best be described as a GFFA version of the Incredible Hulk (Jaina get angry!! Jaina smash!!) suffering from Stockholm Syndrome.[face_thinking]
  4. thrawn20 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2005
    What happened to Grand Admiral Pellaeon? Did he actually retire from service to the Imperial Remnant?

    And, is he now an "ex-Imperial" as described in the recent Swarm War book?

    How could he, a man of such professionalism and honour, ditch the Imperial Remnant and the ideals of the New Order, that he very much believes in?

    Please, someone let me know what's going with Pellaeon ....
  5. Excellence Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 7

    As the cast list says, he's the Alliance's Acting-Supreme Commander.
  6. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Pellaeon was popular with the fans and for reasons completely out of character, he abandoned his ideological beliefs to head the GFFA's navy.

    Personally, I think it's funny since he would be somwhere about 120 by now.

    E_S
  7. QuentinGeorge Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2003
    star 5
    Pellaeon is the same age as Obi-Wan - so he'd be 57 + 40 = 97 by the time of the Legacy series.
  8. Drew_Atreides Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 30, 2002
    star 5
    ...well, i finished this one just about an hour ago..

    I was all set to lambast it, but then i wound up actually enjoying the last couple chapters (i could even get a semi-decent visual of both what Lomi Plo actually looked like AND of the action sequence at the end!)

    Denning still remains among the most overrated of the SW auteurs. This book still had sequences that made no sense (can anyone properly picture what was going on there when the B-Wings came flying down after Luke, Mara and Jacen's X-Wings, or StealthXs or whatever the heck they were flying? Being a hardcore X-WING videogame player.. I dunno... If i'm trying to picture what i think i'm trying to picture, there's NO way some standard pilot could fly a B-WING down a passage that a fully trained set of Jedi Knights were struggling to navigate in X-WINGS.) The Jaina-Zekk stuff needs to be stopped as soon as possible. It's not only creepy, it's stupid *rubs his forearms all over Tahiri, though, just because it's currently socially acceptable* Also, i have trouble understanding why Denning opts to give us SUMMARIES of HALVES of conversations between human characters (Luke says "hey, what's your problem?" Troy Denning then proceeds to assure Luke that he had no problem.), but then he INSISTS on giving us EVERY SINGLE line of BUG talk.. "U RUB BRRRUUUB!" Something just doesn't make sense, there. I swear there were entire half-pages that i simply could have skipped over because it was entirely R's, U's and B's.

    One thing i will give credit for: I thought he handled Leia's Jedi training and her transition into joining the Order very well. And as much as i hate hate hate Jaina, Denning has actually moved Jacen in an incredibly interesting direction. I was actually disappointed when Jacen was put out of commission for the final fight. I haven't given two Sith-Harlots of a BLOAH (was that what Leia kept saying? I forget, now. At any rate, Star Wars curse words continue to be lame.. Han said "Then i'll see you in HELL" in the Empire Strikes Back, for the love of god, use some real curse words!) about Jacen since "Traitor".

    I do wish we had more Ben then we got, but... I suppose the next series will be where we finally start to see what he has to offer the Order. Hopefully they don't screw him up.

    And say hey, Kyle Katarn got the most exposure he's EVER received in a book.. Heck, i think he had more air-time then KYP.

    Now,if only one of the people in charge realized that Kyle has enough of a following to warrant him actually having prominent role in one of the books....


  9. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    With 50 years of naval service in the Thrawn Trilogy?

    And no, fans don't get to retcon his age. The Republic had a navy, as evidenced by the people who flew Kenobi and Jinn to Naboo. Pellaeon is listed as being nearly 70 in TTT SB, IIRC.

    E_S
  10. QuentinGeorge Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2003
    star 5

    With 50 years of naval service in the Thrawn Trilogy?


    He joined at age 15, lying about his age.

    Thrawn Trilogy is 9 ABY. 57+9 -15 = 51.

    Fifty years, give or take a year.

    And no, fans don't get to retcon his age.

    Leland Chee isn't a "fan".

    The Republic had a navy, as evidenced by the people who flew Kenobi and Jinn to Naboo.

    That's the Judicial Forces.

    Pellaeon is listed as being nearly 70 in TTT SB, IIRC.

    Again, 57+9 = 66. That's "nearly 70"
  11. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Dear Quentin,

    His age, in TTT = "70+" (Heir to the Empire Sourcebook, page 52, WEG 1992).

    The Thrawn Trilogy is, as you note, +9ABY.

    Which means, at the Battle of Yavin, he was no younger than 62. That is, he's 61-69.5 in that time period, allowing us to have him at age 71-79 or so in TTT which is consistent with the "70+" given.

    From the Battle of Yavin to the events depicted in Dork Nest 3: the Swarm Bore, a total of 35 years pass.

    Which makes Gilad Pellaeon anywhere from 97-104.5 years old.

    Of course, your pal Leland can retcon a decade here and there to satisfy fans and also authors, who serendipitously can avoid making a new character to fill the role.

    Obi-Wan Kenobi was 25 in the Phantom Menace, and died at age 57. +9 years to the Thrawn Trilogy would have made Kenobi 64, a minimum of 7 years younger than Gilad Pellaeon.

    Didn't Obi-Wan Kenobi remark he was getting too old for the sort of adventuring associated with rescuing princesses? Or is that going to be retconned as a subtle manipulation of Luke Skywalker?

    Pellaeon is far too old to be a Supreme Commander. However, because the fans love him (and frankly, that the other choices are idiotic or vapid, why not?) he gets a few decades shaved off here and there.

    Bwa'tu or whatever the hell is name is is 1 part Thrawn (tactics), one part Kre'frey (Craziness), and 1 part Fey'lya (Cold Evil Bothan!), proving there's nothing particular new about him either. It could be worse, I'm surprised we didn't get a YVH:GFFASC (Yuuzhan-Vong Hunter: Galactic Federation of Free Alliances Supreme Commader) droid in these books!

    Would fans actually desert the books or keel over and die if there was an entirely new cast in a book? RC:HC says no, but we keep getting the same old people! Pellaeon will die at the age of 170 from extreme abuse at the hands of authors, it seems, just to keep fans happy that instead of a dignified end, Thrawn's officious and cautious 2IC gets an extended lease on life.

    That does it. I'm reading TTT again after Dark Lord. I need Tim Zahn to make me like Star Wars again, since Troy Denning has soured it for me. Bah!

    E_S
  12. QuentinGeorge Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2003
    star 5
    I'm not sure what the meaning of your post is. Are you implying I *want* him to be born at that year purely to see Pellaeon in more stories?

    Hell, I don't even care for Pellaeon as a character, and hope for his imminent death....

    In that sense, I agree with you.

    But it's indisputable that the EU, as of at least the release of the NEGTC and the Force Heretic series has treated him as born in 57 BBY. There's been no sinister plot involving "shaving off of age" to keep him in the game. I can hardly see LFL having the foresight to pull off a conspiracy theory like that.

    He's 97 as of the Legacy series.

    Does that make him too old to be a main character?

    In my opinion, yes - they killed off Mon Mothma and Ackbar at younger ages. I'm hoping he's killed off in Legacy: Betrayal.
  13. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Oh, I see, we were talking at cross purposes.

    I don't know about killing him off, I'd just retire him. But the problem is, who replaces him? The only person with a moderate amount of character development possible is Thrawn'lya, I mean Bwa'tu, it's Kenth Hamner...

    Hmmm...

    E_S
  14. greensaber88 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2005
    They could always bring ANOTHER continuing character out of retirement....AGAIN, i'm sure there's plenty of them, or maybe bring Ackbar back to life? (which im sure is within the realms of some author's imagination).
    Personally i wouldn't mind an old character being given Supreme Commander status, just so long as it can be justified. i mean not everyone's a genius like Thrawn or Ackbar, would it be sooo unreasonable to have a less-than omnipotent commander? i'd like to see someone like Aril Nunb, Atril Tabanne, Judder Page, Pash Cracken, or even Ba'tra take command, or better still, a totally new character (not another Bothan, Mon Cal, human or Sullustan!) seize the reigns..........

    .........anything to stop coffin-dodgers clinging to command with their liver-spotted hands and their hovering zimmerframes parked on the bridge
    (I actually though Keyan Farlander would be a good Supreme Commander, but then i -only recently- discovered he is a Jedi)

    -Greensaber
  15. JacenSolo132 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 10, 2005
    star 1
    I liked Admiral Kre'fey during the NJO. It was totally out of character IMO for him to join some of his species in their Ar'krai approach.
    I would have liked him as Supreme Commander.
  16. Drew_Atreides Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 30, 2002
    star 5
    Yeah, i liked Kre'fey, too, up until the point where that one author (i can't recall quite WHO now) totally ruined him.

    They need to make Lando supreme commander. We'd never lose a fight after that. We'd be TO COOL.
  17. barabel_humour Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2005
    star 4
    Nah, I nominate Han Solo or Wedge Antilles for Supreme Commander. [face_talk_hand]

    I doubt Pellaeon's given up his Imperial ideology, it's much more likely that he's just succumbed to senile dementia. :p
  18. greensaber88 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2005
    I apologise, i would definatley not dislike seeing Admiral Kre'fey back as Supreme Commander, i really hated how he was knocked off before he'd even had a single book as SC just because an author disliked him as a character. Kre'fey was a good NEW character from NJO, he was sort of "cunning" like a Bothan should be but without all the backstabbing political mind. and i think you're right, JacenSolo 132, his going off an the ar'kai WAS TOTALLY out of character, he was never one to do something just because the rest of his species was, and at the end of TUF he seemed perfectly content with having the Yuuzhan Vong on Zonama Sekot, so i'd have to say that was a problem i had with TJK, TUQ & TSW.
  19. greensaber88 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2005
    Actually, now that i think about it Kre'fey is a lot like what i imagine Jedi Knight/Master Tresk Im'nel to be, though since he's barely even mentioned i could be wrong. i think he should have seen more 'limelight' during NJO, especially when the Bothans were very anti-Jedi
  20. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Oh why not make Wedge supreme Commander? I mean, he's a fighter pilot and therefore not really schooled in capital ship warfare but that never stopped our motly collection of authors!

    I still think Denning should do a YVH:GFFASC droid! Those things were really original in the first place and didn't at all rip of T-800 designs, and the dozen variants he shoehorned into Dork Nest were all timely and awesome and just pwn3d. A GFFASC model would be liek wow!!1!

    E_S
  21. -myndonos- Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2004
    star 1
  22. barabel_humour Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2005
    star 4
    Well, starfighters are like capital ships but bigger. o_O Besides I'm sure Wedge is both a quick-study and extremely adaptable. :D

    [face_idea] Why not have a Yuuzhan Vong Supreme Commander?! =D= [face_devil]
  23. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    -myn-, don't use words you don't understand. :)

    barabel, I think Wedge is an awesome character, and I'm a huge fan of the X-Wing series.

    However, I think people end filling these roles because it's done in a simple equation;

    Popular Character + Unfilled Role = Teh Win!!1!

    The thing I was actually thinking when reading DN3 was that the obvious side Pellaeon has taken with the Jedi vs Omas actually does set him up for a swift political (and contrived) exit, which is why I wonder about SC replacements.

    Can anyone remind me where Kenth Hamner stood in the DN books; pro-GFFA or pro-"Independance"?

    E_S
  24. quad_gun_jinn Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 13, 2002
    star 4
    IIRC He was pro-GFFA. I think, like Corran, he was influenced by his past affiliation with it.
  25. ConservativeSoldier Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2005
    star 3
    Corran and Kenth were pro-GFFA.
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