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Books The Official Darth Plagueis Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Rogue_Follower, Jan 3, 2012.

  1. Joe_Garelli

    Joe_Garelli Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2007
    I find it pathetic that Darth Maul is reduced to be only a hitman with a Sith name, not a real Sith Lord, all just because of his tattoos and fearsome appearance, he should be veyr intelligent and cunning and capable of doing anything that Darth Tyranus or Darth Vader can do, but the authors and fans treat his character like a lackey that can only kill and do the dirty work for his master, not as an able bodied sith lord who is merely of lesser rank but still a force to be reckoned with on his own, i would see Darth Maul as being very well trained in combat but also in the dark side of the force and the history of the jedi and the sith, and of the galaxy at large, on the same level as Obi-Wan from TPM or AOTC, instead he is dumbed down and reduced to be a dumb hitman like Luca Braso from The Godfather, not a sucessor at all.

    People saying that he is not a true Sith Lord because of his tattoos and appearance is stupid, why wouldnt he be able to be something more? If he was just another human or alien with a normal appearance and training then he would not be treated as just another warrior, it would be nice to see Darth Maul being recognized as a legitimate Sith Lord who had the potential to rise to a place that was equal to Count Dooku's, instead he is just a thug that kills people and cannot hope to be a Dark Lord, even if his master got killed or was exposed and arrested by the jedi and he had to take over, you can even see in the book that he resents not having a dual identity like Darth Sidious does, who is also Palpatine and a senator, Darth Maul wished he had another life along with being Darth Maul, but his Sith nature dominated his life, there was nothing else in it.
     
  2. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 2003
    Two things stick out when it comes to Maul needing/ not-having a second ID....

    1.) By removing any connection between the Sith and his tattoos, Maul could walk anywhere he wanted to. Rare or not, for a Dathomiri male to be at large, the lack of a Sith connection removes certain shackles for the character. His freedom is nobody's business, just ask Anakin.

    2.) It would have been easy to create any one of five hundred different indentities for Maul, after 'Restraint', with the most sensible being Meltch Krakko's Mando-merc armor to conceal everything & provide a working-history. Coming from Orsis, as whomever, it would make perfect sense for the TF/CIS to hire him. There were no records of Maul's enrollment and non survived his return. I'm only miffed that Maul didn't ponder that missed chance in 'End Game'.

    Darth Maul wasn't limited by anything in universe, ultimately he was shortchanged by everyone who had a hand in creating him. One BIG missed opportunity.
     
  3. instantdeath

    instantdeath Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 22, 2010
    A big point is that Plagueis only thinks he's intended as a glorified assassin, but all evidence points to Sidious actually having great plans for Maul. Maul's the one who doesn't consider himself a true Sith; the irony is that he's far harder on himself than his master is, despite thinking the contrary.

    I think, of all authors who have written him, Luceno portrays the most intelligent Maul by far. I only wish we got to see that side of him more in The Wrath of Darth Maul.
     
  4. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian Future Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    ?Let's go over the second part of the speech once more, shall we?? [face_skull]
     
  5. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    About that second part:

    When I got there I actually went back through the book looking for textual support of Palpatine's whole "everything was my idea" claim. And right away I thought I had found some, so I was kind of shocked, thinking Luceno had worked this in all along the way without my really noticing. But on closer inspection it's not really there for most of the topics Palpatine mentions ( though it can be "written in" between the scenes presented ). He does seem to be the one to first suggest somehow pairing up the Jedi with assassins, and he has that insight about turning people against the Jedi, but in most cases we essentially have to take Palpatine's word for it, or - as indicated in the Facebook Q+A with Luceno - assume that Palpatine is simply overstating the case. For example, in the case of Maul, it seems kind of meaningless for Palpatine to claim Maul was his idea, since Maul was literally dropped into his lap, while in the case of Dooku, Palpatine's insinuation seems to actually go against the evidence in the text.
     
  6. instantdeath

    instantdeath Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 22, 2010
    I don't have time to dig through the book to find the specific quote I'm looking for, but I seem to remember at one point, Plagueis is talking about the Grand Plan, and Sidious chimes in with a simple suggestion; and at that suggestion, Plagueis's entire line of thinking seems to change. I seem to remember Palpatine suggesting that the public needed to be turned against the Jedi.

    I honestly like the idea of Palpatine planting ideas in Plagueis's head through the Force just as much, though, but I imagine there would be some manipulation in the "profane" world, as well. I doubt Palpatine authored everything, despite his claim. I'm content to give both Palpatine and Plagueis half credit [face_liarliar]
     
  7. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian Future Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    I love how this exchange was essentially-

    Sidious: The Chancellor has dispatched Jedi to Naboo
    Plagueis: Who?
    Sidious: Qui-Gon Jinn and his Padawan, Obi-Wan Kenobi.
    Plagueis: ****! :oops:
     
  8. Starkeiller

    Starkeiller Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2004
    Making an ally out of Dooku and convincing Sifo-Dyas to place an army order are without a doubt all Plagueis's pet projects (in Marxist-Leninist terms, what Sidious did is appropriation :p). The Clone Wars, though, are all Palpatine.

    P. 187: This is the most definite one. Sidious suggests to Plagueis the end of the Jedi through Order 66 and the Jedi Purge, and sucks up to him in order to make him believe that he is a good student who's not after the chancellorship, but of course Plagueis can't be Chancellor because he's a Muun with many enemies, and he's devoted to his crazy projects. And after he's done, Sidious says: "in the annals of Sith history, you will be known as Plagueis the Wise." o_O ("as if thinking out loud," "as in revelation," "purge").

    P. 216: Plagueis clearly gets the idea of making the Kaminoan clone army Jedi-led (as opposed to Jedi-opposed) from Sidious.

    We will have to exploit their self-righteousness and blind obedience to the Republic, Sidious had said at one point. The Jedi must be made to appear the enemies of peace and justice, rather than the guardians.
    Mulling it over anew, Plagueis began to wonder whether he had taken the wrong approach on Kamino. Perhaps, he thought, it would be better to have the Kaminoans create an army capable of fighting alongside the Jedi rather than against them ...


    P. 327: Same as above.

    Palpatine sat down. "We still need to raise an army for the Jedi to command. But one that answers ultimately to the Supreme Chancellor."
    "A grown army could be designed to do just that," Damask said.
    Palpatine considered it. "It sounds too simple. Jedi are not easily taken by surprise. Honed for warfare, they will be even more difficult to ensnare."
    "At the end of a long war, perhaps? With victory in sight?"
    "To achieve that, both sides would have to be managed." Palpatine blew out his breath. "Even if a surprise attack could be launched, not every Jedi would be in the field."
    "Only those suitable for combat would need concern us."


    His doubts, and the fact that he seems not to want the Kaminoans for the job, seems like bait to me, but perhaps there is supposed to be an alternative? [face_thinking]

    P. 344:
    There's one more issue," Plagueis said. "The Naboo crisis has finally caught the fancy of Coruscant. If we could force a similar crisis in the Senate, your election would be guaranteed."

    Sidious thought about it. "There may be a way. The call for a vote of no-confidence in Valorum."


    It seems that no plan in vague terms (raise an army, start a war, etc) was originally Sidious's idea. But after he's elected Senator and Plagueis loses his touch with reality, most of the planning appears to originate from him.
     
  9. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 2003
    Loved it a minute later as well, when he deduced that Jinn would simply wreak slow havoc on the Control Ship.:)
     
  10. The_Forgotten_Jedi

    The_Forgotten_Jedi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 12, 2010
    I found that great as well. The Sith seemed to regard Qui-Gon as some kind of Chuck Norris. I wish he and Kyle Katarn could have met...

    In other news, IGN has reviewed Darth Plagueis. Apparantly they are thinking of reviewing novels now. The review seemed fairly positive, but they gave it a 6.5/10.[face_not_talking]
     
  11. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    I'm surprised at how many reviewers seem to be getting this wrong. The novel's last scene is after the close of the film.
     
  12. instantdeath

    instantdeath Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 22, 2010
    IGN's reviews, no matter what medium, have never made sense. They're not as bad as gamespot, but they're quite terrible regardless.
     
  13. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    This book proves once and for all that San Hill is not Plagueis. Oh, the pain, the pain...
     
  14. The_Forgotten_Jedi

    The_Forgotten_Jedi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 12, 2010
    Agreed. Their reviews for Fringe and Big Bang Theory usually leave me wanting to tear my hair out of my head whenever I read them. I find the wrestling wrap-up to be funny though- and I don't even watch wrestling! :p
     
  15. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    I have FINALLY gotten the book.

    Already over a hundred pages in.

    I've got to say, the image of the Dark Lord of the Sith being annoyed by a student at a university's help desk, and being given a map of the campus to find his own way to a certain building, walking around while looking at the map and trying to find the right classroom, is just hilarious. :D
     
  16. Kol_Skywalker

    Kol_Skywalker Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 9, 2006
    I would really love to know some of the behind the scenes info that led to creation / publication of this novel.

    Ie: why was it cancelled all those years ago, only to be released now? What decesion led to the cancellation last time? Hss the book radically changed / evolved over time?
     
  17. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 2003
    Radically different, yes.


    Not even close to being the same book from six years ago.
    Originally, Plagueis and Jinn were racing against time and each other to find the key to immortality. Or something.
     
  18. KnightDawg

    KnightDawg Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 26, 2007
    As much as I would love a Dooku book, I'm dying to know more about this Darth Gravid. James Luceno created a very interesting character with this Sith Lord.
     
  19. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 2003
    Yeah, more going on there than what met the eyes.
     
  20. DarthMarly

    DarthMarly Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    May 10, 2010

    I think they delayed the novel's release since Lucas was planning to re-release the movies in 3D, and this book would cause a lot of hype. It's already near the top of the bestseller list and folks like me, who really didn't like The Phantom Menace to begin with, now want to see it again to see the connections with the book. Great marketing.
     
  21. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Luceno also said in the interview that they wanted more focus on Palpatine. (And probably less on Qui-gon and the Whills)
     
  22. Hogne

    Hogne Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 21, 2004

    I finished the book last night, and while it wasn't a "My [insert deity here] I can't put this book down" kind of novel, it was among the better Star Wars novel in quite some time. For some reason I prefer prequel novels to post ROTJ-novels.

    My four main problems with the book are:

    1) I imagine it must be a confusing book to those who aren't quite well versed in the EU, as quite a a few of the important events in the book are only referenced. There are even build ups to some of them, and on on the next page you are given the cliff notes, or resume if you will, in stead of the event itself. I'm impressed with all the references Lucenco managed to come up with, but it makes the book harder to follow. Even I were lost a few times, even if I knew most of the references.

    2) The manipulation of Syfo-Dias was too easily done.

    3) I'm annoyed that Palpatine is no longer the mastermind we've all given him credit for. I think that his rant at the end of the book about him being the one coming up with all the ideas didn't ring true at all. I saw no evidence in the book that this was the case. And there being three Sith-lords at the same time during TPM just doesn't ring true for me.

    4) Too much politics and too many names. At times there were pages after pages with references to politicians, sons of dignitaries, conflicts, organisations and who knows what, and this didn't really add much to the story, other than "what are they talking about?" It might have been that a lot of this were references to books and comics I've never read, or have forgotten about.

    Nevertheless, quite a good read and I liked the book. 7 out of 10 for me.
     
  23. instantdeath

    instantdeath Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 22, 2010
    It seems like I'm the only one (who's mentioned it, at least) who actually liked the idea that Palpatine's (possible) manipulation of Plagueis was kept secret even from the reader. I was also somewhat annoyed that the plan we see executed in ROTS was mostly authored by Plagueis, and really enjoyed the possible revelation at the end.

    Taking Luceno's word in mind, I imagine it was about half Plagueis, half Palpatine's manipulations; we know that the manipulation of Sifo-Dyas was Plagueis's doing. Still, I wonder if Luceno was hinting that Palpatine was manipulating Plagueis with words, or if he was somehow implanting ideas into his head using the Force. It certainly wouldn't be the craziest display of mind control we've seen in the EU (Revan was able to implant knowledge of Basic into the Rakata's head!).
     
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  24. JediMara77

    JediMara77 Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 5, 2004
    No, I liked it, too. I love when authors are able to keep secrets like that from the reader. It's easy to keep secrets from the reader when you never use a certain character's POV, but it's much harder to do so when you use a character's POV. And I can totally buy that Palpatine was influencing Plagueis.
     
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  25. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian Future Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    Read Starkeiller?s quote above. Sidious? manipulation of his teacher (??but Master? Never!? [face_skull]) is quite subtle. Insidious, even :p Subtle enough that the reader might miss it also. But upon re-reading, it?s quite correct that he re-directed Plagueis? train of thought. He had some vague ideas involving clones and Jedi, but it was Sidious who came up with what we saw on-screen regarding the Clone Wars, the discrediting of the Jedi, and Order 66.
     
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