Lit The Official Darth Plagueis Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Rogue_Follower, Jan 3, 2012.

  1. JediLight Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2001
    star 4
    Read the whole book (except the Epilogue - will do tonight). Overall, I absolutely loved it.

    Some thoughts on book:

    -The Phantom Menance = Darth Plagueis?
    -Loved the Gunray tie-in scenes. "I'm a Sith Lord. You can call me Darth Sidious". (Paraphrasing)
    -Didn't connect Anakin as a Plagueis experiment. Maybe that's just me. I love the chapter title though "Force strikes back"
    -As others pointed out, I didn't recognize all the EU stuff besides the Bane story. Kind of made some subject matter hard to read
    -Who is Darth Gravid? New Sith Lord in the Bane line?
    -Thought Darth Tenebrous was an intersting character. His master, was also a Bith, neat. (The Bith Sith)
    -I didn't like Maul dumbed-down, but he was still a Sith Lord, in my book. Sidious simply broke the Bane rule. I always approached Sith Rule of Two differently before the Bane series. My thought is that if you put three darkside subjects in one room together, you'll end up with two survivors. That concept flowed with the movies (Anakin and Luke). The Bane series turned my thinking from a practice to a Rule. Sidious called him "Darth Maul" which meant that both thought of each other as Sith.
    -Hoping next book is about Darth Tyranus. I loved all the Dooku and Sifo-Dyas content

    EDIT: Overall book was awesome. I'd give it 9 out of 10. Worth a read again.
  2. KnightDawg Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 26, 2007
    star 4
    That's because Anakin Skywalker wasn't a "Plagueis experiment". It was highly suggested by Darth Plaqueis that Anakin Skywalker was created by the Force due a tip in the balance towards the darkside as a result of the shift that had been the outcome of months of intense meditation, during which Plagueis and Sidious had sought to challenge the Force for sovereignty and suffuse the galaxy with the power of the dark side.

    Looks like someone needs to catch up on their Star Wars reading. :)

    Yes. He was the one that destroyed a lot of the knowledged gained through the Rule of Two and was some how drawn to the light side of the Force.

    No, Darth Tenebrous' master was a Twi'lek. I think you are confusing Darth Tenebrous with Darth Venamis.

    Darth Maul wasn't "dumbed-down" at all. A Sith is not a Sith Lord. Darth Maul was defeated before he could ever achieve the title of Sith Lord. Darth Sidious used him as a Sith Assassin.
  3. JediLight Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2001
    star 4
    "A Sith is not a Sith Lord" - You're saying (and Luceno wrote) that Maul wasn't a Sith Lord, just a Sith. That dumbs him down from the TPM, IMO.

    I don't have any interest in most EU stuff, besides the Bane books and TOR content. All post ROTJ EU is crap IMO. Thanks for suggesting I begin reading more often.
  4. KnightDawg Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 26, 2007
    star 4
    When was it ever stated that Darth Maul was a Sith Lord? Even back when TPM came out, I don't ever recall hearing Maul described as anything more than a Sith Apprentice. The fact that Darth Sidious trained him makes him very special and not dumbed down at all. A highly trained Sith Assassin is fearsome. Who knows what would've happened had he killed both Jedi's on Naboo. Again, a Sith and a Sith Lord are very different. Just like a Jedi and a Jedi Master are not the same.

    Anytime!! There are tons of good SW novels out there from all the periods.
  5. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    Maul is definitely a Sith Lord, not an assassin like Ventress. His trial is detailed in The Wrath of Darth Maul, and Sidious explicitly states that he is now a Sith Lord. Also, only Sith Lords ever get "Darth" titles.

    Again, Maul wasn't dumbed down; if anything, he was made smarter. Sidious fully considered him a Sith Lord. Maul, however, did not consider himself one after he lost to Kenobi. It doesn't change the fact that Sidious thought him worthy.
  6. Joe_Garelli Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 22, 2007
    star 1
    One thing that shows that Palpatine/Darth Sidious was weaker and lessed skilled in the use of the dark side of the force was that Darth Plagueis was able to torture someone to death and repeatedly bring them back to life again several times, eventually letting them die, yet Palpatine killed Bevel Lemelisk seven times and brought him back each time in a new clone body and had his consciousness transferred by Palpatine's dark alchemy, Palpatine was totally unable to bring him back to life in his own body each time because he lacked his masters skills at bringing people back to life.

    Although Darth Plagueis was not able to transfer someones soul from one body to another and Palpatine was, although he might have been able to do the same thing if there was a clone body in the room ready to go.

    Its kind of funny that Darth Plagueis and Darth Krayt learned how to cheat death in different ways, Plagueis by manipulating the mididchlorians in others and using DNA to bring them back to life, Darth Krayt by killing someone and letting them be reborn by his powers, those of the ancient Sith Lord's, Darth Krayt could have benefitted from Darth Plagueis's secrets and powers and used them to heal himself, likewise Darth Plagueis could have benefitted from Darth Krayt's ability to die and be reborn free of all disease and problems, maybe someday a Sith Lord will come along and have the knowledge of both along with what Palpatine knew about transferring his spirit into clone bodies, thus being able to cheat death.

    The Sith Emperor seemed to have this kind of knowledge and power, living one thousand years and remaining healthy and strong would be hard to do, Yoda managed nine hundred years but was old and weak and not strong in the body but only in the force.

    Its funny how this book and Dark Empire shows that Palpatine was pretty much a novice as far as Sith Lord's go, not being very good or highly skilled compared to his fellow Dark Lord's and having a crappy power to compensate for it with, yet Darth Plagueis and Darth Krayt both came up with some powers that were much better than any Palpatine could have imagined, its a shame that Darth Plagueis and the Sith Emperor never had a holocron where they passed their knowledge and powers on down to Palpatine or Darth Krayt, the Sith could have combined all of that dark knowledge together and come up with a perfected way of cheating death.
  7. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    Knowing more esoteric powers isn't the same as being flat out "stronger" in the Force. If we go by this logic, the Sith Emperor is by far the most powerful Sith Lord to ever live.

    Bane even said that he would attempt transferring his essence to clones, if he had the time to create them. Plagueis simply feels that true immortality is the only way to to... as Tenebrous so aptly puts, he's afraid to die.

    If we're going by esoteric powers, remember, Palpatine was able to destroy an entire planet. No other Sith Lord has even come close to that. No being has ever come close to that, even creatures like Abeloth, who are probably more powerful than Palpatine normally. The only ones who come close are the Sith Emperor, who had thousands of Sith Lords willingly help him with the ritual, and the thought bomb. He's also capable of Force flight, which Plagueis was unable to ever develop.

    In terms of fighting prowess, I doubt any other Sith is stronger than Palpatine. I can't really think of any Sith Lord who's Force power is strong enough to so easily beat a Force user like Starkiller, or to very nearly rip the lightsaber out of Windu's hand (according to the novel).
  8. KnightDawg Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 26, 2007
    star 4
    My apologies, I meant that Darth Maul was never a Sith Master. I mixed master and lord, my bad.

    If anything, this novel made Maul smarter than ever. In the past, he was just viewed as a wild dangerous animal of pure hatred and rage. I thought this novel really showed us the smarter and calculated side of him.
  9. Darth_Foo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 24, 2003
    star 4
    My Continuity OCD got the better of me and I put note cards in my DP book where it would jump to another story, ie DM: Saboteur, Cloak of Deception, and DM: Shadow Hunter. See I never read DM:SH and just got it. Now that I'm on the third section of DP I'll get the whole lead-in to TPM in chronological order (also with JC: Acts of War and Prelude to Rebellion). Now the problem is to pace myself so I'm not finished too long before the movie. :-B
  10. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    Ah, right, he's definitely not a master (which, of course, makes me wonder how Maul would be as a master. Perhaps we'll see in TCW, if he trains Savage?)



    Shadow Hunter is a very fun book. Very interesting, that Reeves had (Shadow Hunter spoilers, can't remember if they're mentioned in Plagueis) Maul kill two Jedi, yet not actually kill them by cutting them with his lightsaber. In a way, they both kill themselves, so you can still see Qui-Gon as his first Jedi kill if you want to
  11. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Here's an example of a typo that should never have survived the editing process: C-P3X. Any Star Wars fan should know instinctively that the P follows the 3 in C-3PO, and C-3PX is obviously going to be the same way.
  12. Darth_Kiryan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2009
    star 4
    ANd he was a SIth Apprentice, as well as being referred to by Sidious as Darth Maul, so he was still a Sith Lord - in a manner of speaking. But, considering his name is Maul, he is nothing but an attack dog, which his name suggests. So assassin fits well.

    But the Darth Title is given to Maul, regardless.

    Heresy. Begin reading boy. the Thrawn Trilogy is obviously the best, IMO.
  13. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    If we want to get into the ?who can/can?t do X power? contest, then Vader is more powerful than Plagueis, because as I said before, what took Plagueis decades of 24/7 intense study and meditation, Vader accomplished by instinct and pure force of will vs. Starkiller aboard the Death Star, at Mustafar, and particularly on Atoa.
  14. JediLight Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2001
    star 4
    One thought could be is that Darth Maul wasn't a true Sith Lord because there were already two Sith Lords (Sidious and Plagueis). I disagree with that notion as well.

    Does the Thrawn trilogy have clones of the Emperor? If it does, I have no interest. Darth Sidious died by the hands of Anakin Skywalker at the end of the ROTJ. That's how Sidious story ends, at least for me and George Lucas.
  15. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    Dark Empire. Zahn hated the idea of Palpatine being cloned.
  16. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    Tenebrous, Plagueis, and Sidious all didn't believe in the Rule of Two.

    Dark Empire has clones of the Emperor, which Palpatine transferred his essence to. Lucas apparently said it's one of his favorite EU stories. I like to think that Palpatine's essence was greatly diminished in the void, and that it wasn't the real Palpatine who inherited the clones, just a shadow of his former self. Dark side energy, shaped by Palpatine's will, leftover from his death, that was no longer a true threat to the balance of the Force.
  17. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    In my ?personal continuity,? cloning a Force sensitive = clone madness. Without fail. The stronger the sensitivity of the source, the more stark-howling barmy the clone. That explains why there was no therapeutic cloning for Vader, why Joruus C?Baoth was completely mental, and why ?the Emperor Reborn? was a cackling loon.

    Easy-peasy, lemon squeezy.

    As far as the Maul not being a full Lord thing, I?d say it was comparable to where Sidious was a decade into his own apprenticeship under Plagueis. Powerful and skilled enough to be a Lord, but not nearly enough so to take down the Master. The bit about him being ?an assassin and nothing more? is a yet another line of nerfshavit Sidious was feeding him
  18. Ulicus Lit'ari

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2005
    star 6
    Yeah. Despite what Plagueis may have thought, Darth Maul was a fully trained member of the Order of the Sith Lords, a true Sith apprentice of Darth Sidious and, as such, a Sith Lord in his own right.

    More specifically, as an apprentice of the Banite line, Maul was a Dark Lord of the Sith. (True, that all RoT Sith bear the title of "Dark Lord" seems rather at odds with the Karpyshyn books... but who can tell the mistakes from the retcons, there?)

    I don't really think this makes a huge amount of sense in Palpatine's case. The "clone Emperor", after all, was the actual Emperor having set up shop in a succession of new meatsuits.

    I'd be more inclined to think the constant disembodiment and exposure to chaos was what was driving him up the wall.
  19. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    I always LOL at each Sith Lord who thinks they?re ?beyond? the Rule of Two.

    Tenebrous said he was beyond it, only to get smoked by Plagueis.
    Plagueis thought he was beyond it, only to get fried by Sidious.
    Sidious tried to break it with Maul, only to lose him.
    Tyrannus thought the rule was done-for, only to get beat down by Anakin.
    Vader tried to break it with Rhett, only for that project to go off the rails.
    Vader and Sidious tried to break it with Luke, and we saw how that went.

    To be so megalomaniacal as to believe oneself to be above it, and to be ultimately ensnared by it are both aspects of Sith psychology.
  20. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    But I mean that none of them thought that it was a rule to be followed. It ended up being natural Sith behavior, under the circumstances they were in. But none of them really obeyed it, or said they were part of it. Darth Maul wasn't any less a Sith Lord than Tyrannus or Tenebrous.
  21. Starkeiller Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2004
    star 4
    As opposed to the Palpatine we see in Ep. VI & III? o_O :p

    Seriously, how is Palpatine any "crazier" in Dark Empire than in the movies? Does he show any of the symptoms C'baoth's clone did? Moreover, would a crazy guy, or worse yet, a crazy clone, almost take back the galaxy? He no longer controls everything, and has been taken by surprise and murdered, which accounts for him having lost that "I'm untouchable" attitude he had in the films, and that's why he's so much more bad-tempered. Just being murdered would be enough to ruin my temper for life (or... whatever condition is applicable for someone who is undead). But other than that, he's just the same guy we see in the films. Seriously, a crazy clone wouldn't sit down to write his magnum opus while waiting for his former lackeys to slaughter each other. The Emperor from Return of the Jedi, would.

    --

    As for Maul, his Master treated him with more Sithly respect than he ever treated his own Master, and at least considered him an apprentice, not a virulent DNA storage case, as his Master's Master considered his own apprentice. :p
  22. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    Even Bane attempted to break the Rule of Two at the end of his life... didn't go so well.
  23. Ulicus Lit'ari

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2005
    star 6
    He's okay in Dark Empire.

    But he totally sucks in Empire's End.
  24. Starkeiller Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2004
    star 4
    Yes, in Empire's End he's losing it. But that's not clinical insanity, it's an irrational fear of death, same thing his master, Darth Plagueis, suffered from all his life (in case anyone thought this was off topic :p).
  25. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Idiots.

    :p
    THIS.

    Darth Maul was the epitome of what it meant to be a YOUNG Banite Apprentice: loyal & driven.
    My favorite part of the story; for all ways & for ever:
    pride precedeth the fall. :)