Lit The Official Darth Plagueis Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Rogue_Follower, Jan 3, 2012.

  1. Yodaminch Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 6
    I finished this two days ago and have been absorbing it. It's been a long time. Not since Mindor I think (and honestly, in my opinion this blows that away too) since I've been excited to read a Star Wars book. This book was literally with me everywhere too. On my Iphone, on my ereader and on my laptop. I read it every time I had a free moment because it was incredibly hard to put down.

    Unlike many recent works which felt like a chore to read, I actually dreaded reaching the end of this masterfully written novel. The attention to detail and the way things just fit without much issue makes me wish ALL authors and writers had to adhere to the same process Mr. Luceno used. Certainly would help in the cartoon. :p

    Having read so many of these old preTPM works referenced, to me it was a treat to read. I loved the backstory of Palpatine, the gungans war over plasma (is that the first time plasma has been mentioned. I'm assuming plasma = the weapons the gungans use?), the rise and fall of Veruna and the references to so many characters. And all the little things like remembering Jocasta Nu was on the council at one point, the details surrounding Valorum's fall etc... All of it was very tight from what I could see.

    I also loved how some characters were mentioned, but never spoke. Padme for example does not speak until she's Queen (Though I am curious why Pablo wasn't used instead of that other guy's son). Bringing in Dorianna and fleshing out Pestage was also fantastic. I also enjoyed how Luceno left many scenes mostly to our imagination.

    One detail that did interest me was that two members of the council investigated after the attack on Demask but were never mentioned by name. Something else that seems curious- has it ever been outright stated that Sifo-Dyas was not on the council? Dooku states specifically that he turned a seat down. But Sifo-Dyas, while he seems to imply not being on the same level, I don't recall if it has been outright stated that Sifo-Dyas was NOT a leading member of the Jedi Council.

    One does feel sorry for Maul. He's pretty much a tool to do Sidious' bidding. I saw others mention that Plagueis feels a bit like the godfather the way he interacts with others and the favors Demask Holdings does for some beings. I can definitely see that. But it seems like Plagueis lives three lives: the Sith Lord, the crime boss Damask and the upstanding citizen Demask. Otherwise I think more people would have been upset with Palpatine being seen near Hego Demask.

    As for Sidious not technically being the master in TPM. I see it like Jedi. It seems that around the time Sidious rescued Demask, he ceased being the apprentice and passed his trials if you will (slaughter of Pax Teem). From there, he was a Sith Lord equivalent to Jedi Knight. Around the time of TPM he appears to have hit Jedi Master level status and is Plagueis equal and partner (in Plagueis' mind at least). But, much like Yoda tells Dooku "Much to learn you still have" decades after Dooku became a knight, there are things Plagueis knows that Palpatine still has to learn.

    Also, it's been a while since I've read Cloak of Deception, but is this the first time they mention Valorum's assistant being his lover?
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  2. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    I really liked it when I read that young Palpatine hated his father because he was "overconfident," when he was summing up his relationship with his father to Plagueis. (It obviously goes deeper than that, though).

    And in the second part, apprentice Palpatine hated the Jedi because they were "overconfident."


    It just makes me think that in ROTJ, when Luke tells Palpatine "your overconfidence is your weakness," the insult actually gets far deeper under Palpatine's skin that Luke intended. I bet Palpatine was thinking of his father in that instance, if we ever get that part of the scene from Palpatine's point of view. As well as "I'm a Jedi, like my father before me" probably reminding Palpatine what he secretly knows is true... he's become his own father, and hates himself for it.
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  3. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    I would not put that past Luceno.... Dude thinks of just about everything.
  4. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

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    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    So given what we now know about the prequel era, who else would love to see a re-write of the OT novelizations co-authored by Stover and Luceno? [face_mischief]
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  5. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    If they keep writing from the Sith-POV, then it would work fabulously.
  6. DARTH_DEEZY Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 1
    great points from everyone...concerning Darth Maul, I don't think Sidious considered him a TRUE sith due to the fact that he could not hide his presence in the force and his menacing appearance yellow eyes etc... can't rememebr the exact page but I recall Sidious questioning Maul's ability to "carry the Sith imperative forward". ...also Maul's impetuous nature was off putting to Sidious, the fact that he spent hours of his free time (instead of meditating) stalking the Jedi temple in hopes of seeing a jedi hinted at his obsession with violence and battle as opposed to the subterfuge required to be a successful Sith Lord...Also the fact that Sidious tells Plagueis of Maul's existence IMO dooms him to the role of Sith lackey/assassin unlike Darth Venamis who's existence was kept secret...also I think Plagueis was generally unimpressed with Maul until he saw the saber staff.

    regarding Sidious and Plagueis abandoning the rule of two: early in Darth Sidious Training, Plagueis mentions that it's also their responsibility as true Sith of the Bane lineage to hunt down any "pretenders" as their existence was detrimental to the grand plan

    and as a sidebar as someone mentioned there needs to be a novel centered on DARTH TYRANUS I'm very interested in more details concerning his Sith training the ordering of clones, the murder of Syfo Dyas and the selection of Jango Fett as the clone template
  7. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

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    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    Although Mindor has proven that Stover really gets Luke Skywalker. Plus I?d love to read his PT-style narrative of ?This is the return of the Jedi?
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  8. JediLight Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2001
    star 4
    Agreed!
  9. Renasko Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2007
    So...why is midi-cholorian manipulation only knowledge for a Dark Sider? Coming away from reading this, it seems like it'd be valuable for most Force-users (not Forceful). Especially for Jedi that are more grey than white.
  10. Yodaminch Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 6
    Look at the way Plagueis uses it. He's imposing his will on the midi-chlorians and forcing them to do his bidding essentially. However, we know there are jedi healers who use their talents to heal others. I expect they too use the midi-chlorians but the manner is different. Plagueis uses them to extend his life and power and to kill Veruna. I suspect perhaps at the end, they abandoned Plagueis. We know he tries to gather them to protect himself against Sidious and fails. Perhaps because the way he's used them is more like a dictator dominating their will and forcing them to do things against their nature. It's very clear that this is, in Palpatine's own words "unnatural". I get a very dark Frankenstein version of this.

    However, keeping in mind Luceno wanted to show Qui-Gon's path to immortality, my thinking is Qui-Gon embraced the will of the force and the midi-chlorians to achieve eternal life as a spirit. It also feels like, while Qui-Gon might have been interested in it (still unclear to me), he was also prepared to die and passed peacefully essentially. Much the same way Ben accepts his own death and Yoda as well. The Jedi do not fear death "There is no Death. There is the Force". I would assume therefore that their path to immortal life is much less about staying in their physical shells and more about living on as greater immortal beings.
  11. KnightDawg Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 26, 2007
    star 4
    Manipulation of the Force would be considered unnatural.
  12. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Generally speaking, all Force-users manipulate the Force.

    The way I read it, he failed because Sidious was choking him, and thus he was unable to draw on the Force effectively. As Lucas said in Rolling Stone: Cutting off life is cutting off breath. The road to the Force is through the breath.
  13. 13thsithlord Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2005
    star 1
    i agree if you can clone a force user - anakin could have repaired himself and palps would have let him.
    and in my cannon the true palps died on DS2. the clones were just that just ....clones
  14. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Yep. Gotta get specific to find the darker stuff, like say: force-manipulating an organic's menstrual cycle and/or biological-functions to induce pregnancy. [face_mischief]


    ;)
  15. TheRedBlade Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2007
    star 3
    I am glad (and maybe a little jealous) that I'm not the only one who fantasizes about this exact concept.

    "This is how the return of the Jedi looks to Jabba the Hutt...," followed by Jabba's view of Luke cutting through his goons over the Sarlaac.
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  16. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

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    I must say that it worked out really well to re-release TPM so close to the release date of Darth Plagueis. As an aside, I?ve arbitrarily placed his death at the point in the movie when there begins to be a reversal of fortune in favor of the heroes, specifically when Anakin destroys the Trade Federation battleship. The Chosen One?s unconscious use of the Force creates ripples of befuddlement all the way to Coruscant, which causes Plagueis to get sloppy drunk and pass out. Those ripples of Force befuddlement also caused Maul to utterly forget about the admonishment that Sidious gave him, and also caused him to become a slack-jawed idiot when Obi-Wan pulled his stunt. Plus, there?s something symbolic about Plagueis falling dead simultaneously with the army he had a hand in creating.

    Another thing that occurred to me from the book is that if Anakin was brought about because of Sidious and Plagueis mucking with the Force, I have a new theory about Luke and Leia. We?ve already seen that Force users can see the future, and that the Force has a will of its own that often acts in opposition to the Sith. Perhaps the Force ?foresaw? what was coming with Anakin and decided to ?hedge its bets? by creating not one, but two additional vergences that were just as powerful as the Chosen One.
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  17. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    From the review thread...


    9.7/10

    Great novel, but a few flaws. A lot was great about this book, but to keep this short, I'm just sticking to the flaws.

    The events during and around Episode I seemed to be rushed through, and Hego Damask did seem deluded that he would become co-chancellor. He was better-positioned to take Dooku's eventual role, as leader of the Separatists.

    I also wish we saw more of Plagueis's experiments and the mystical side, especially when Plagueis/Sidious unbalanced the Force, killed/resurrected/killed/resurrected/killed Venamis, and then when Plagueis reached out in the Force to create a Forceful being. But I heard that Luceno didn't cover this because it's about to be covered somewhere else, so I guess it isn't really a flaw.

    There should also have been more focus on Plagueis before he began looking for an apprentice, as the solitary Dark Lord. The beginning seemed to focus too much on his immediate escape from Bal'demnic.

    I like reading about politics, even Star Wars politics, but even I was confused by some of the political machinations going on throughout the book.

    General comments: I wonder if Plagueis may show up again, I'm not 100% convinced he's finished. Am I right in thinking that Santhe Security was behind the death of Tenebrous? Senator Pax Teem from Malastare said that many had waited a long time for revenge upon Damask, and the displeasure of some of "them" goes back even further, to hating Damask and his ally Rugess Nome. I also don't believe that Palpatine wanted to kill Plagueis from the start, or was putting every idea inside his head, many times we see Palpatine briefly flirting with but ruling out betraying his master, and Plagueis was definitely behind the manipulation of Sifo-Dyas and making Dooku an ally as well as the Kamino-grown Clone Army.

    Plagueis is a remarkable creation, a fully-rounded character that's now fully-grounded in the EU. And Sidious has finally been fleshed-out, but not diminished. This is Luceno's masterpiece.
  18. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    We don't need the Force to explain Luke and Leia. Anakin and Padme had sex.
  19. DARTH_DEEZY Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 1
    I was just about to post this...excellent observation
  20. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    But twins do seem to be abnormally common in the Star Wars universe [face_liarliar]
  21. Yodaminch Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 6
    Agreed on that. But what I'm saying is that, he dominated them and was imposing his will over them. I suspect he could have been saved if they were willing to help him. But because he was unable to draw on the Force effectively, his hold wasn't as strong and they just let him die.

    Something I took away from the rewatch of the Phantom Menace. Qui-Gon's emphasis on the living force. "Be mindful of the living force" he says in the beginning. During the council meeting "He's headstrong and he has much to learn of the living force". And then when he talks about the midi-chlorians, as we know, he mentions that they 'continually speak to us' and when you 'quiet your mind, you'll hear them'.

    Which brings me to this: Qui-Gon knew he couldn't defeat Maul. He'd fought the guy once. He knew one on one he was in trouble. That moment where he meditates makes me think he was quieting his mind to listen to the midi-chlorians. Hence why it feels like he willingly let go. He just managed to say what he needed to Obi-Wan and then he was at peace. As opposed to Plagueis who literally fights to his last breath.
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  22. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

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    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    Well, yeah :p But what I was getting at is an explanation as to why Luke and Leia are so freakishly strong in the Force. By comparison, look at when the incredibly powerful Revan hooked up with the "not chump-change" Bastila. The result was a Squib, to use the Potterverse term.

    Another fun aside is that comparing TPM to the DP novel, Qui-Gon recognized Anakin's latent talent in the Force fairly quickly, while Sidious had no clue until A) he did the math after talking to Master Dooku, and (B) he concentrated real hard the next time they met. Interesting...
  23. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    But was Vaner really a Squib, or did he just follow a different occupational path?

    For some reason, Vader in Dark Lord thought it was a given that a child of him and Padme would have been exceptionally powerful.

    There's some consistency there. Qui-Gon didn't seem to sense anything special about Anakin when they first met, just as Palpatine sensed nothing from Anakin on the Coruscant landing platform. It wasn't until the dinner table conversation that revealed Anakin's abilities as a podracer that Qui-Gon began to focus on Anakin.
  24. TheRedBlade Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2007
    star 3
    A more pressing question would be if Leia's twins were supposed to to be a balance: a living example of what Luke and Leia could have been in they grew up together.
  25. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    I like to think Vaner was non-Force sensitive, or at least very weak in the Force. Even when Revan was reprogrammed, according to Bastila, the Force began to quickly show itself again in subtle ways. Assuming the son of Revan would inherit all of his powers, I can't imagine his Force powers would simply lay dormant without training. Plus, even though the Jedi Order seemed to give Revan and Bastila special privileges, I imagine they would insist on training the son of Revan, should he be Force sensitive, after what his father did (though on the other hand, the Council that would oversee his training were not the Vrook and Vandar led one, but the Exile's apprentices, so I could see an exception being made).

    Either way, we're not really given a clear answer, but I definitely like the idea of the son of one of the most powerful Force users being non-Force sensitive. In fact, I kind of would have liked if Luke Skywalker were to have a non-Force sensitive son or daughter, but of course that won't come to pass.