Lit The Official Darth Plagueis Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Rogue_Follower, Jan 3, 2012.

  1. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Luceno seemed to indicate that it was an enemy of Rugess Nome. Cosinga lacks motive.
  2. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    The Senate from Malastare says he's allied with people who have been targeting Hego Damask for a long time, and some even going back further to his old mentor Rugess Nome. And since we know his allies seem to be Santhe Security, and the Nome/Tenebrous was enemies with them, it seems to fit perfectly.
  3. Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Nov 21, 2000
    star 4
    Teenage Palpatine having disturbing dreams about Damask? o_O There's always been a Batman/Robin component to this master/apprentice pairing stuff, but... [face_beatup]
  4. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    And balls.;)
  5. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Palpatine had to come from somewhere.
  6. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
  7. Eddie Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 16, 2001
    star 3
    Having finished the book I went back and read Cloak of Deception - has anybody else gone back to this?

    I would highly recommend revisiting this book as a companion to Plagueis. It reads very different with the information we now have.
  8. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6

    I wonder if Plagueis would be amused with Maul's use of Dun Moch?
    [face_mischief]
  9. Darth_Foo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 24, 2003
    star 4
    Well...when I got DP I had recently bought DM:SH and already owned CoD. So I did all three in "chronological" order. I stopped at the end of the right chapters and switched books. Even went so far as putting note cards where these and Jedi Council: Acts of War take place. :-Bx3

    dewback_rancher likes this.
  10. Eddie Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 16, 2001
    star 3
    That's hardcore Darth Foo!

    I'm currently reading Shadow Hunter so doing the same thing without the breaks in chapters!!!
  11. MrFantastic74 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2010
    star 4
    I purposefully didn't read any of the posts above me in this thread because I don't want any spoilers. I couldn't find a non-spoiler thread. Please quote this post in your reply.

    What I'd like to know is: Is this book worth the read for someone who is generally not satisfied with SW novels? Everyone places the Thrawn Trilogy at the top of their list of favorite SW books, but I thought they were just OK. So, how does this book stack up to others in the SW EU? I read the preview on iBooks on my iPhone, and it seems to be well written (one of my pet peaves with some other SW novels is that they are, understandably, written for a teen audience). Basically, I'm looking for a book that feels like SW, but is also "adult", well-written and thought provoking. Some nice plot twists would be good. Although I appreciate good action, character development is probably the most important thing to me.

    Any non-spoiler thought s would be appreciated.
  12. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    I think this book is exactly what you're looking for. It has high quality writing; in-depth and has interesting revelations; great character development for Plagueis, Sidious, Dooku, King Veruna, and others... by the end, Plagueis feels like a fully-rounded and three-dimensional character who fits perfectly into Star Wars, and it's hard to imagine Star Wars without this character; I never really loved the Thrawn Trilogy, and this book was much better, DARTH PLAGUEIS is definitely in the Top 5 EU works of all time; there's great continuity tie-in's with pre-TPM stories; this novel really redeemed the EU books for me; it's definitely thought-provoking, and it's not 100% action (like most SW books, with the teen audience in mind) but the action it does have is very tense, significant and well-written. I rated it with a 98%, and I would definitely recommend that you read it. :)
  13. Darth_Foo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 24, 2003
    star 4

    Awesome. I liked Shadow Hunter a lot more than I thought I would.




    I think you would like Plagueis, until the last third. At that point the story gets a little detracted by a ton of EU references. This can be a good thing because it brings together all the pre-TPM stories into a cohesive plan, but I think if someone who hasn't read all those things wouldn't appreciate it as much.
  14. MrFantastic74 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2010
    star 4
    Thanks, man. It sounds great. Curious what you consider to be the other four of the top five SW books.

    Hmmm. I have not read any pre-ANH materials at all. In fact, I think the only EU stuff I've read have taken place after ROTJ. Would I be lost reading Darth Plagueis?
  15. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    I'd rate THE UNIFYING FORCE, TRAITOR, DESTINY's WAY, and the LEGACY comics among my other favorite EU works.

    I didn't read any pre-TPM stories before DARTH PLAGUEIS. I was aware of them and what basically happened, but I don't think I even really needed that. They weave stories about the Yinchorri alien race, how Palpatine became Senator, what Darth Maul was doing before Naboo, how Sidious approached the Trade Federation, who ordered and funded the Clone Army on Kamino, why Dooku became cynical about the Republic and the Jedi Order, the story of King Veruna (who was ruler of Naboo before Padme became Queen Amidala), and a few others. These are each covered in their own stories, but never before from the Sith's point of view, and they were never all connected as part of one story before. It's all explained within DARTH PLAGUEIS, but if you want more detail on these side-stories you can read those stories or look them up on Wookieepedia, but I wouldn't look them up on Wookiepedia now if I were you sicne they probably contain DARTH PLAGUEIS spoilers.
  16. MrFantastic74 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2010
    star 4
    Thanks, m8!
  17. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    The thing about the ordering of the clone army was only previously touched on by a brief passage in LOE, and that was from Dooku's POV.
  18. blackmyron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2005
    star 5
    I like that Luceno finally gave a credible explanation on where exactly Sifo-Dyas got the credits for the initial order.
  19. Pfluegermeister Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2003
    star 4
    The latest TCW episode seems to have provided some new insight into the period this novel covers, whether it meant to or not. I'm just going to warn everyone about spoilers now, because here it comes:

    So when Savage and Maul are reunited, with Maul's sanity and memory restored, Maul notices that "the Force feels out of balance." Savage confirms this by answering, "Yes, there is conflict - the Clone Wars." But what Maul then says was delicious and insightful: "Ah, yes. So it began - without me. [...] I was apprenticed to the most powerful being in the galaxy once. I was destined to become so much more. But I was robbed of that destiny by the Jedi, by Obi-Wan Kenobi."

    This tells us a lot. There has been much discussion about how much Maul knew and when. Wrath of Darth Maul confirms that Maul did know that Sidious was Palpatine, and that the intent of the Naboo crisis was to get Palpatine levered into power. What Revenge now confirms is that Sidious also shared his plans for the war with Maul as well - and apparently had a very specific role in mind for Maul with it.

    This makes the situation within the Sith ranks even more Machiavellian than it already was - keep in mind that Darth Plagueis establishes that Plagueis and Sidious were themselves putting together the exact plan for the war as the Naboo crisis was about to get started, maybe a month to a month-and-a-half prior to the events of TPM. Revenge now reveals that Sidious was already sharing this information with Maul behind Plagueis' back - and because Maul knew nothing about Plagueis at the time, we must assume that Sidious was already planning for a Plagueis-free future, happily incorporating Plagueis' plans and taking his advice (which Sidious in any case feels he fed to Plagueis, rather than the other way around), but otherwise already working toward himself. Sidious apparently did mean for the Clone Wars to happen as he and Plagueis were expecting, but he was expecting Plagueis to be dead. It wasn't going to be a Plagueis-Sidious partnership; it may have been meant to be a Sidious-Maul partnership, in the way that it eventually became a Sidious-Tyranus partnership.

    But then what was Maul supposed to do during the war as part of this "partnership?" What was this destiny he speaks of? The episode itself only hints at it with the dialogue I cited above, but some of the interviews Sam Witwer gave leading up to this episode reveal a little more, and hint at the idea that it was Maul who may have been originally meant to lead the Separatist forces, not Grievous, and possibly not Dooku either. It does fit - although I'll confess that I never believed politicking to be his strong suit before his dialogue-heavy debut here, so I always questioned whether he could have filled Dooku's shoes, and to an extent I still do, because I somehow just can't see Maul chairing sessions of the Separatist Parliament like Dooku does. But filling Grievous' shoes? I'd buy that instantly; more specifically, I'd buy the premise that Grievous was actually a last-minute, slapped-together, improvised replacement meant to fill Maul's shoes.

    In fact, as terrfying as Sidious intended Grievous to be, one would think that Maul would cut an even more imposing figure, with an additional ten years of training and preparation under his belt, than Grievous did. Sidious needed a figure of nightmare haunting the Republic if he was going to scare the Republic into giving him supreme power; who better than, literally, a scary red devil? It's all psychological, and in principle no different than Grievous, resembling a skeleton-skull-robot, becoming the Republic's fear-symbol as he eventually did. Like Grievous, Maul was great with a blade and could meet the Jedi in combat; he could take command of droid forces when needed; he could think tactically; he'd trained under Sidious almost since birth. Maul would work as a fearsome Separatist commander, going in with the troops, smashing things up, letting
  20. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    According to Endgame Maul did know about Plagueis.
  21. Pfluegermeister Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2003
    star 4
    Yes, he did - after he had been sent to Naboo and just before he was killed, so he really had no time to process that information before he died. And in that instance it was more about him finding out about the existence of Hego Damask the gangster-financier, and his suspected involvement in Veruna's murder and some of Palpatine's other intrigues, than it was about him finding out about Plagueis the Sith Lord, and his role as Sidious' master. Maul undoubtedly would have put two and two together eventually, assuming Endgame doesn't imply that he did before the short story ended(I did read the story, but could not purchase the book, so I cannot consult it at present to be certain).

    No, when I refer to "at the time," I'm talking more about the weeks and maybe months leading up to TPM, and the mindset and expectations Maul might have had when he stood with Sidious on the balcony, expecting that at last, they - Sidious and Maul - would have their revenge, not Plagueis and Sidious; the moment Maul lands on Naboo, all that's out the window, either because he died, or because, had he not died, he might have had some interesting questions for Sidious when he came back (as, indeed, he still might have in season five of TCW...).
  22. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    I always thought Maul was underestimated, and the last episode does seem to prove that he's more than just an animal... that he has plans more than killing Jedi and having revenge. His line that went something like "Yes, let's begin with Revenge" seems to hint that Maul may turn out to be just a machiavellian as Sidious.

    I still think Maul could have filled in Dooku's shoes, he would have had years to mature into a charismatic but imposing leader.

    But I definitely agree that he could have at least been the original Separatist commander, before Grievous and the Chiss Dark Jedi lady who came before him, leading the droid forces into battle.

    I also think Maul would have been the original Darth Vader too, the last stages of the Clone Wars could have been General Maul publically betraying the Separatists and leading the Republic forces to an overwhelming victory, making him a hero of the Republic and then the new Empire. But that was probably Palpatine's plan before he discovered Anakin. Once Anakin came into the picture, even if Maul wasn't cut in half, the temptation would have been too sweet to pass up for Sidious. He would have probably engineered a match between the two of them to see who would be the stronger apprentice.

    I also wonder what Mother Talzin's role in all this will be revealed to be. Perhaps she is the true biological mother of Maul, and just sent one of her witches to pretend to be Maul's mother and to give him away to Sidious, pretending it's to hide Maul from her but really it's all a part of Mother Talzin's grand plan. But what could that be? To infiltrate the Sith?
  23. Pfluegermeister Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2003
    star 4
    I'd buy everything in that scenario, more or less, save for the notion that Maul could then somehow be depicted as defecting from the Separatist cause and joining the Republic; that's one leap too many for me. Would the people accept Grievous if he did the same after all he'd done? Probably not; one might as well expect the American people to believe that Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, after decapitating Daniel Pearl and God knows who else, would then have defected from al-Qaeda and led the assault on Osama bin Laden's Abbattobad compound. No one would trust him to be able to do it, or even to want to.

    The novelization for ROTS reveals that they DID plan to do that with Dooku, but Dooku was a former Jedi and had a fold to go back to if he chose, and he had a reputation of being above Grievous and keeping his hands clean - so far as the public knew. Grievous was meant to take the fall for the atrocities of the war, and Dooku, after defecting, would decry Grievous' crimes and say he was wrong to support the Separatists, and would then have been given some place in the New Order. But that's just what Sidious told Tyranus; evidently he felt no one would believe it of Dooku either, and in any case, Dooku had to die to keep him quiet.

    I do agree, though, that the moment Anakin showed up, Maul was superfluous and would eventually have been made to face Anakin to decide who would serve Sidious. As you say, Anakin was too good to pass up.
  24. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    I'm planning on reading Plagueis and inserting Cloak and Shadow Hunter in the appropriate places.
  25. Matthew Trias Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 1999
    star 6
    I'm not sure that Maul's line confirms he knew about the Clone Wars to come...just that he knew some plan to sow chaos throughout the galaxy was in the works and that he put two and two together and figured out that the Clone Wars was it.