Lit The Official Darth Plagueis Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Rogue_Follower, Jan 3, 2012.

  1. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2003
    star 6
    Now that I have time to read this a second time through in more detail... it would take a post 3x's as long as the book to outline my thoughts on how ingenious this book is. I'm going to have to make a post later about whatever random thoughts came to my mind while reading that haven't been brought up by other people here already.

    Stuff nobody else cares about like holy crap, did Luceno actually just bring back the Bedlam Pulsar?!? or how "San would become Hego's right hand" is one of the best lines in existence and would no doubt go in my sig if this book were not under spoiler wraps.

    Also, I second the comment above by Monopoly that Plagueis is flat-out awesome all around. The guy just lives to be the epitome of badass. I kind of hope Luceno makes some short stories about his adventures sowing mayhem around the galaxy with his droid.
  2. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Six years mah dear.
    Couldn't agree more...


    This book is full of great lines, names, people, places, affiliations, customs, traditions, politics, musings, combat, side references, lore, starfalls n sunrises, blood, intrigue, subterfuge, wit, verve, action and drama.... Griswald, I need more than egg nog & Tylenol. This book kicks ass.
  3. Rogue_Follower Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2003
    star 6
    I care.
  4. DarthAdamentum Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2008
    star 3
    Triple S... I shall now call Darth Gravid's apprentice as Darth Grievous. kinda suits her right? because she grieves to the loss of essence transfer
  5. Nobody145 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2007
    star 4
    Yeah, Plagueis was awesome. He actually taught himself not to sleep for years, until Palpatine got him drunk. Still, he had a better inkling of the Sith's fate than Palpatine did, that by trying to wrest control of fate from the Force, the Force would counter somehow. Plagueis definitely didn't create Anakin as part of his experiments, but the timing is far too close to one of their acts to be coincidental so apparently Anakin was born of the Force or something like that.

    And yeah, Palpatine comes off very well as he gloats at the end that he was the mastermind to a dying Plagueis. Althouugh Plagueis wasn't quite invincible, as he was nearly killed about halfway through the book, but even half-dead he took out like half a dozen assassins.

    And as expected of Luceno, there are tons of excellent references. Like Dorianna, its nice to see someone else use him, since usually only Zahn remembers him (well, Zahn wrote about him first, but I had expected to see Dorianna pop up in more prequel stuff, but then I expected to see Victory Star Destroyers and Headhunters more tooo, so Dorianna is just one of those before-prequel references that should be used but most Lucasfilm works don't bother, except for Luceno who is awesome at this kind of thing). Not to mention tons of Sith references from Naga Sadow (and Plagueis does NOT want to just end up as a Sith ghost, he wants true corporeal immortality) to Vitiate, the Sith Emperor from TOR as well as Darths Sion and Nihlus. I'm only slightly sad that I probably didn't understand a lot of the references.

    Darth Gravid was an interesting idea, although with how Plagueis and Palpatine referred to him I almost expected him to play a bigger part eventually instead of Palpatine just eventually reflecting on how much damage Gravid did. He sounded like a really radical kind of Sith since he actually came to see the light, although he still viewed it in terms of making the Sith stronger. But still, nice to hear how he apparently destroyed a lot of Sith artifacts (he felt it was better for the Sith to start from scratch), usually its always seeing Jedi holocrons destroyed or artifacts looted, while Sith artifacts last for millennia, or fallen Jedi or more like that. Also nice to see essence transfer referenced and definitively gone.

    Interesting dynamic going on for most of the book, since Maul wasn't quite a secret apprentice as Plagueis was aware of him, but then Plagueis thought Maul was just a tool, an assassin they could send out occasionally to do their bidding while Palpatine and Damask publicly ruled, but then Palpatine wad hiding stuff from Plagueis too. Dooku was also a jerk quite often, its kind of a wonder that Qui-gon turned out as well as he did considering how Dooku was (and his other apprentice). Palpatine kills Plagueis at almost the same time Maul loses on Naboo (I forget if the book said died or not, but with how current this book is, with references to Talzin and Vitiate, they were probably intentionally vague on that), and that's probably another sign that Palpatine shouldn't have been quite so confdient... although it eventually turns on him, even if it takes another 30, 40 years or so. Also nice to see how Sifo-dyias got the clone idea, although the literally contrivance of the Force keeping Plagueis from mentioning Kamino while Jocasta Nu was in the same room was literally the will of the (dark side) of the Force. Although even if she had heard the name in a random conversation she probably wouldn't have remembered (she was kind of a jerk in Episode II anyway).

    These guys are all evil, although funny how all Plagueis and Palpatine and Dooku all came from rich families, although Plagueis' mother was sent by Darth Tenebrous, as Bith science calculated he would be powerful. Quite a few interesting approaches to the darkside, as the Bith Tenebrous thought science and math was the best way to power, while Plagueis was more into experimenting and midichlorians and such. And apparently Tenebrous' Twi'lek
  6. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    Just want to point out the obvious. The continuity in this is fantastic.

    A Shi'ido? Seriously? Awesome, I actually enjoyed the Galaxy of Fear books :)
  7. Zorrixor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2004
    star 6
    Barriss may have answered that... [face_whistling]
    ...just sayin' :p
  8. S1thari Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2008
    star 3
    This novel has been very, very hard to put down. I'm torn between the need to consume the entire novel and all of its delicious bits of information as quickly as possible and wanting to fully absorb and digest every single sentence. Suffice it to say, it's a difficult balance to strike. :eek: [face_hypnotized] =D=

    Looks like this was the perfect time to actually start caring about the EU again. [face_thinking]
  9. Darth_Kiryan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2009
    star 4
    SO, essentially, Plagueis and Palpatine did manipulate the medichlorians, but that alone didn't create Anakin, so the Force did the rest

    is that right?
  10. Nobody145 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2007
    star 4
    I don't have a copy of the book (still debating about Kindle or physical copy), so my memory might not be the most accurate, and I'm not that good at keeping the timeline exact in my head, but basically, Plagueis takes Palpatine on as his apprentice, they train, Plagueis experiments, and about nine years before Episode I, they make a major breakthrough. I forget if that was when Plagueis managed to literally bring Tenebrous' backup/secret apprentice back to life multiple times (although he had already been brain dead for a long time by then so not sure if the mind would've remained), or something else, but its a major accomplishment, and an asteroid doesn't drop on their head so they figure the Force is letting them get away with it (or rather that they've overcome the will of Force, being power-mad Sith and all).

    Then years later, on the verge of becoming Supreme Chancellor, Palpatine is having a chat with Dooku (who is about to walk away from the Order and already pretty close to falling without too much overt prodding from Plagueis or Palpatine) and Dooku mentions this Force-strong boy Qui-gon found, possible the Chosen One of prophecy, born nine years ago... which really set off alarm bells in Palpatine's head. The two thought that since they hadn't been struck down by lightning they could get away with their crimes against nature and life and all that, but finding out Anakin was born at that time (with supposedly no father, although this is all third-hand based on Shmi's words, but Anakin's Force strength is undeniable) starts them worrying. Plagueis has dealt with quite a few major players of the era, and at about the same time he's having some problems dealing with Gardulla as that Hutt had lost a lot of money at the Boonta Eve Classic, and Palpatine tells him that Anakin won that event, and Plagueis mutters that his actions are already echoing among the stars (or something like that). So Anakin was born far, far away from Plagueis or Palpatine, probably in response to their threat. Although by the end Palpatine is going mwa-ha-ha, he's going to usher in the Sith Grand Plan, and take Anakin as his apprentice, with Dooku as a placeholder until then... and the rest is history.
  11. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2003
    star 6


    Pestage and Doriana were excellent in this book. I could never understand why Palpatine placed so much trust in them (or at least, let them live as long as they did) when Vader had absolutely no qualms about offing his assistants whenever he felt like it.

    Also, the image of Pestage and Palpatine busting into the Canted Circle ceremony with guns blazing is hilarious. :p

    Repeated references to Gravid and the other Sith who existed between the Bane-Tenebous line were something I hadn't expected, since many authors tend to stick with the "major names" (Bane, Exar Kun, etc) when modern Sith reference other important Sith in the past. Luceno did a great job mixing the new with the old.

    Speaking of musings, I thought it was neat we weren't always told the "truth" behind the motivations of some of the characters. Even though the story followed Plagueis and Palpatine's trains of thought closely, there seemed to be a lot of suggestions rather than explicit explanations behind what motivated them.

  12. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Not entirely.

    In truth, that act was all about Plagueis, not Sidious.
    The latter only observed the lab results before witnessing the final acts of the Venamis-Project.

    On the same day, they went after another target.
    Together.
    ;)

    But it wasn't until Sidious went back to Coruscant, that Plagueis would attempt his greatest feat.
    [face_mischief]

    THIS.

    As I've mused since my first spoilz, every time WE went to Sojourn, the story simply rocked.

    For those that are just finishing this for the first time, I urge you re-read pages 269-272.
    They clarify exactly what happened on Sojourn when Plagueis and Sidious went uber-mystic.


    ***

    IMO, the 'power to cheat death' means learning direct control of midichlorians.

    Which leads me to this:
    Vader looked in all the wrong places, for power.
    His lack of patience never paid off.
  13. dewback_rancher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2009
    star 4
    Just out of curiosity, how does Palpatine come off? Vader may be my favorite Sith Lord, but I get annoyed when people try to trump Palpatine, because I have to admit that that is sort of the intent there. He was designed to be evil incarnate, basically the 'devil', as Lucas has put it.

    Are his 'greatest threat in SW history' credentials intact coming out of the Plagueis novel?
  14. Starkeiller Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2004
    star 4
    I have to say, Luceno does a tightrope act with this. Certainly not what I would have liked, but better than I expected. Best part for those on the "evil incarnate" camp (and those include Misters Lucas and McDiarmid so, let's say, the ones on the "right" camp [face_devil]) has to be his father's remark that he had him tested because he had doubts whether he was his son, or even human at all.

    My biggest surprise yet is how unpleasant a character Plagueis is. [face_sick] He's written as a thug, a gangster, a thoroughly unpleasant individual, rude, with bad hygiene, and -- anathema for a Sith -- a vegetarian with a moral code, albeit a completely demented one. Plus, the book makes it seem that Palpatine is mostly self-trained in the Sith ways -- Plagueis saw no wisdom in the ancient Sith, nor had much time for his apprentice between his godfather business and his experiments. I can't wait for Palpatine to kill him (a few pages to go). Tenebrous was right about him. Now the Bith was a good Sith: just a slimy self-serving @$$!-!()!# like Palpatine.


    Why still black highlights? Isn't it time to lose them? The book is out. [face_dancing]
  15. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    I disagree with your assessment of Plagueis, most of what you described happened after Fobosi.
    And they had two major tasks to perform, one for each Sith Lord.

    Yes, Sidious was self made.
    But so was Plagueis.

    Remember; at some point, Tenebrous sabotaged his training... and started training another.
    ;)

    Palpatine is as brilliantly insidious, as ever. Maybe even more so than before.

    Tenebrous didn't teach Plagueis everything he knew, yet Plagueis is arguably the most powerful force user to ever have lived. I say force user, because he lost his way at the end. Without any real irony, the same, basically happened with Sidious. He might have witnessed firsthand; all that his Master could do, but did not not know all the secrets. Yet after killing Plagueis, he went on to become the most powerful Sith Lord ever. Sidious even admits as much: that at that time, he didn't need to be more powerful, only more clever. Once the galaxy was Palpatine's, he would set his sights on surpassing his former teacher. Somewhat ironic that Plagueis called Tenebrous 'Master' after his attack, but Sidious did not do the same as he 'killed' Plagueis.

    Although, I'm not convinced that he actually died there.

    ***

    As for the continued use of BLACKOUTS, its a respect thing. Not everyone runs in here to read details, some peeps (as evidenced in a post or two during the last 24 hours) enjoy reading the vague comments without the actual nuts and bolts of the story. Even with THAT measure still in place, I have refrained from even mentioning some of the big stuff. Just because.

    Also many; of our good-TFN-friends living overseas, don't have the luxury of identical release dates... so IMO, continued BLACKOUTS are good for at least the first month of release.:)
  16. Zorrixor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2004
    star 6
    I'm only highlighting selected blackouts at the moment...

    Namely the short ones that don't sound like they're revealing much. :p
  17. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Case and point.

    ***

    @ StarKeiller:
    How was Darth Sidious any less of a gangster than his Master?
    Did you miss his introduction and subsequent bird conversation with Nute?
    Pure ~ Corleone ~, his offer was. [face_mischief]
  18. Starkeiller Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2004
    star 4
    Of course. Makes sense.

    I am one of those Europeans, and I got it on January 10. If one is content with a digital copy, procuring one is not that difficult.

    Aside/rant: And it's not a luxury, by the way, it's a right. We're supposed to be living in the 21st century globalized capitalist world of the Internet, not Soviet Russia, and the entertainment industries need to realize that they just won't keep the prices where they want them, or they will perish under the banner of piracy.

    It's just that Plagueis has no class. Palpatine is a gentleman and will sway you with his silken words even while doing his most thuggish work, but Plagueis, even when dealing with delicate matters, is just plain rude. Plus, he doesn't wash and drinks through his nose. Yelch.... [face_sick]

    The bird one-liner was one of the best, by the way. [face_laugh]
  19. Zorrixor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2004
    star 6
    Tell me where!!! =P~
  20. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    @ StarKeiller:

    IDK about you....
    but calling someone a "Stunted slime" doesn't strike me as a GQ-smooth, gentleman's move. Or the 'feeble-minded' wisecrack, for that matter. Not to mention the veiled, and the not so veiled threats.

    I mean, if THAT stuff ain't gangster, then we'll never be on the same page.
    :p
  21. Starkeiller Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2004
    star 4
    Now THAT is gangster. :p

    Palpatine does a gangster's work to get where he is, certainly, but he's at least he's charming. Even in that scene with Gunray, he tries to keep a balance between the threatening overlord and the equal co-conspirator. In much the same way, for those who watch that show, that Nucky from Boardwalk Empire is a gangster but he's an affable fellow as far as gangsters go nonetheless. Plagueis is a repulsive character in general. I'd fancy enjoying a conversation with Palpatine before he sent Maul or Vader to stab me in the back and dumb me in the garbage masher, but I wouldn't want anything to do with Plagueis. Even Jabba has better manners. And having read The Tenebrous Way, his Master was spot on about everything. That short should really be part of the novel. I guess they'll print it with the paperback.
  22. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    My thoughts that I promised you all a day or so ago about the book. But be warned, there be spoilers!

    Darth Plagueis was excellent; it met most of my expectations and surpassed others.

    Luceno consistently proves why he is considered one of Del Rey?s greatest assets when it comes to Star Wars literature; in my opinion, he is rivaled only by Stover with respect to authors with multiple contributions to the mythos. He edges ahead of the likes of Steve Perry, Michael Reaves, Paul S. Kemp, and Timothy Zahn?who are all superb authors in their own right. On the other hand, he absolutely outclasses the likes of Drew Karpyshyn, Troy Denning, Aaron Allston, Karen Traviss, and the Bantam-era novelists like Kevin J. Anderson.

    Key to Luceno's success is his attention to detail and respect of continuity; suffice it to say that this novel is more entrenched in canon than any other published work with the Star Wars name on it with respect to the vast multitude of references and connections to other canonical works. He reportedly worked with highest levels of the Lucas media empire to ensure the accuracy of events and to guarantee that the novel, cover-to-cover, was commensurate with the creator?s strict vision of canon.

    Plot

    The book is segmented into three parts. The first part deals with the final day of Plagueis's apprenticeship under Tenebrous. After killing his Master, he continues his entrepreneurial quests under the alter-ego of Hego Damask, the outrageously wealthy 'Magister' of Damask Holdings?which has direct ties to the likes of the Trade Federation and InterGalactic Banking Clan. His pursuits lead him to Naboo where he first meets Palpatine, a young malcontent, and discovers that he's highly Force sensitive.

    The second part deals with Palpatine's Sith training?philosophical lessons on MuunilinstMygeeto and Sojourn, combat excursions on Hypori and Kursid, and political refinement on Naboo and Coruscant. Plagueis increases his efforts to manipulate midichlorians and uses his vast resources and connections to facilitate Palpatine's political career.

    The third part deals with a bifurcated path the Sith take to success: Palpatine working to complete the political elements of the Sith Grand Plan, ranging from the blockade of Naboo to his subtle manipulation of Dooku, and Plagueis's fanatical efforts to conclude his Force-entrenched experiments. And ultimately, one succeeds as the other fails, which determines the novel's chilling ending.

    Characters

    The novel deals with two principal characters: the titular Sith Master and Darth Sidious. Everyone else is relegated to supporting roles, though some feature more than others?Maul, Dooku, Tenebrous, Veruna, Pestage, Valorum foremost among them.

    Plagueis is described in the films as a mystic. In the novel, he is that in addition to political kingmaker, galactic financier, and scientist. The implication throughout the novel is that the Sith of Bane's order must be all of these?as adroit in the trappings of the "profane world" as the Sith combat arts. As a combatant, though, Plagueis is tremendously potent. At one point, Plagueis muses that in all of his studies in the Force, if a Force-user who was his equal in strength preceded him, he isn't aware of it. Luceno is careful to not paint him as unstoppable or infallible, however: Plagueis is wounded in his grueling duel with Venamis, nearly slaughtered by Maladian assassins, and is noted more than once to have little talent with Sith sorcery?unlike his disciple. As a character, he is profoundly ruthless without being cruel (at least as an adult). He is, in a way, depicted as almost honorable and killing only when necessary. In fact, he is shown to have a genuine affection and surprisingly deep trust in Sidious, which (as you would expect) dooms him.

    Palpatine is, in many ways, more prominent in the novel than Plagueis himself. We are first introduced to him as a young malcontent. In addition to being responsible for the deaths of two people in a speeder accident, his past was so
  23. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    So certain you are, that the Massster failed....
    Would Venamis, Veruna and Shmi all agree?

    I wonder.
  24. Starkeiller Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2004
    star 4
    As far as the "who created Anakin" business goes, Luceno again chose the middle path. Which is great. Exceeded my expectations, really. 10 years before Anakin's birth, we are introduced to "the Magister's pregnancies" and learn that he has supposedly succeeded in creating life. Shmi was a slave at the time, Plagueis was Gardulla's business partner and had helped her take over Tatooine, you get the idea. Then, we flashforward 20 years later, and Plagueis panics when he learns of Anakin.

    Who he is referring to is left ambiguous. Is it himself? Is it Palpatine? Is it the Force? Of course, Plagueis has developed this crazy idea that the Force is like an opponent to him, trying to thwart his plans, and we are to assume that "the Force struck back," like he does and the chapter title suggests. But if we are not so inclined, Plagueis creating Anakin makes perfect sense.

    Best way it could have been handled.


    We also never learn if Palpatine did mention Damask in his acceptance speech. I'm so sure he didn't. [face_devil]
  25. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Agreed.

    And because I just can't help myself....
    This is for those who CANNOT wait to read the text for themselves:
    I'm happy with how that was handled, as nothing has changed.
    Its still up to each of us to decide.

    Brilliant, really.