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Lit The Official Darth Plagueis Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Rogue_Follower, Jan 3, 2012.

  1. darklordoftech Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 6
    Whatever the case, no Death Star was going to blow up with Sith on board. Vader and Palpatine are no Tarkins.
  2. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Who else besides Luceno has characterized it?

    Apparently you can. That's just the kind of thing notable Sith would tend to aspire to anyway.

    After all, one of them dreamed of killing it.

    "Force = everything" is no less an EU invention than unbalancing the Force as ritual, and arguably it may tend to undermine certain sections of film dialogue. What we were told in ANH and TESB was a somewhat different story: that the Force is an energy field created/generated by living things, as opposed to being treated as identical to the things generating it; it surrounds us and penetrates us, while it is not said to be us. And as an energy field which permeates the whole galaxy it is indeed "out there" and "right here" at the same time, wherever in the galaxy "right here" happens to be.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Oct 12, 2013
  3. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 6
    Yeah I'm not really interested in wasting my time.
  4. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    So the Expanded Universe wasn't really that paradoxical about it after all?
  5. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 6
    No, I'm just not interested in attempting a discussion with a brick wall.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Oct 12, 2013
  6. Ulicus Lit'ari

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2005
    star 6
    Then don't post in response at all.
    Last edited by Ulicus, Oct 12, 2013
  7. son_of_skywalker03 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2003
    star 4
    Looked like he had valid counterpoints to me.
  8. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 6
    Which can only prove my point that the Force is depicted paradoxically. Apocalypse also deals with balance and says it was never restored.

    Ultimately you're picking and choosing among the contradictory EU accounts what you want to choose to believe, and it's not worth arguing about.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Oct 12, 2013
  9. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    You said what constitutes unbalancing the Force is depicted paradoxically in the EU, but I don't know of any other EU characterizations of what constitutes unbalancing the Force other than Luceno's.

    It is true that different authors often seem to have different ideas about the Force.

    In that case there seems to be a contradiction between the source and Lucas, for whatever that's worth - unless of course Lucas changed his mind and it's all a setup for the ST which takes the same retcon approach.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Oct 12, 2013
  10. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 6
    "Since the fall of Darth Bane more than a millennium ago, there have been hundreds of thousands of Jedi -- hundreds of thousands of Jedi feeding the light with each work of their hands, with each breath, with every beat of their hearts, bringing justice, building civil society, radiating peace, acting out of selfless love for all living things -- and in all these thousand years, there have been only two Sith at any time. Only two. Jedi create light, but the Sith do not create darkness. They merely use the darkness that is always there. That has always been there. Greed and jealousy, aggression and lust and fear -- these are all natural to sentient beings. The legacy of the jungle. Our inheritance from the dark."
    Jedi Merkurian likes this.
  11. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I don't see anything there about unbalancing the Force, and I'm also wondering how the hell Mace knows about Darth Bane. He read a sourcebook.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Oct 12, 2013
  12. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 6
    I suppose I'll just take Ulicus' advice at this point.

    Edit: Although to answer your question about Bane, it's likely because the EU completely ignored the Lucas backstory for Bane:

    Yes, Bane did die over a millennium ago because he was part of the fifty plus Jedi Knights that formed the Sith with the guy that became Darth Ruin. And he emerged to fight the Jedi after all the others died out so the Jedi could know about the Rule of Two.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Oct 12, 2013
  13. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I don't think so.

    When it was believed all of the Sith were destroyed, he emerged from his concealment.

    A thousand years had passed since the Sith were believed destroyed, and the time they had waited for had come at last.

    Bane's apprentice may have been changed to a female, but other than that the latter portion of the quoted text is more or less consistent with the later EU.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Oct 12, 2013
  14. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 6
    So did Bane live for nearly a thousand years?

    "The Sith had come into being almost two thousand years ago."

    "Others were recruited, and soon the ranks of the Sith swelled to more than fifty in number."

    "They destroyed their leader first, then each other. What few survived the initial bloodbath were quickly dispatched by watchful Jedi. In a matter of only weeks, all of them died. All but one."

    "The Sith who reinvented the order called himself Darth Bane."

    Nope, it ignored the fact that Bane was one of Darth Ruin's original group -- which destroyed itself within weeks of Ruin leaving the Jedi Order, leaving Bane its sole survivor, "almost two thousand years" before Episode I.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Oct 12, 2013
  15. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    He did not emerge to fight the Jedi in an overt sense. That would wait until later, as the passage indicates: the time they had waited for had come at last.
  16. darklordoftech Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 6
    So you're saying that the Rule of Two had already existed for 1000 years when the Sith seemingly went extinct? That's such a cool idea!
    The Rule of Two makes perfect sense that way!
  17. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 6
    The Jedi knew that the Sith were still around in Bane's lifetime. "A thousand years had passed since the Sith were believed destroyed."

    Even after Bane was the last Sith, the Jedi knew about him, because they didn't believe the Sith were extinct "almost two thousand years ago," but only "a thousand years" ago.

    So when it says he "emerged," how am I supposed to interpret it, knowing that the Jedi knew the Sith were still around for centuries after Bane's lifetime, unless Bane's lifetime lasted all those centuries? And even if it did last those centuries, the Jedi still knew about him, because they didn't believe the Sith destroyed until "a thousand years" ago, rather than "almost two thousand years ago."

    The Phantom Menace novelization is straightforward with its story; the EU messed it up.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Oct 12, 2013
    darklordoftech likes this.
  18. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    That's why my statement referred specifically to "the latter portion" of the quoted text. You've identified a problem with the earlier part, and unsurprisingly this issue has come up before. Given that the text in question, taken as a whole, seems to imply that Bane lived for 1000 years, it doesn't seem too unfortunate that later works attempted to clean this up a bit.

    Actually, a significant time gap can be inserted between "as with the Jedi" and "In the end". The "leader" referred to after that break doesn't actually have to be Ruin, though for all I know the author may have intended it to be Ruin.

    "When it was believed all of the Sith were destroyed, he emerged from his concealment." He hid out from the other Sith until they were all dead. It's not about the Jedi.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Oct 12, 2013
  19. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 6
    There's no reason for the text to make the distinction of "weeks" if it's time jumping. The EU dun goofed. Wasn't the first time, nor the last. The novelization is straightforward with the story, and explains the "plot hole" of how the Jedi knew about the Rule of Two. The EU in its zeal for retcons tried to tie Bane in with the Valley of the Jedi, and their retcon completely distorted the original story -- not to mention completely ignored the reason why the Rule of Two exists.

    This is why Lucas steps on the EU. And that's your answer for how Mace Windu knows about Darth Bane.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Oct 12, 2013
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  20. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    We simply appear to differ on what that statement means.

    The period of weeks, in that interpretation, is after the time jump.

    There's a lot of goofing to go around.

    Unfortunately there was no such plot hole until it was created by the EU. The plot hole does not exist in TPM taken by itself, since there is nothing in the film to prevent the Sith from having had the "rule" prior to their supposed disappearance.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Oct 12, 2013
  21. darklordoftech Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 6
    They should make movies about all this Sith history.
    Jedi Merkurian likes this.
  22. V-2 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 4
    ...that completely disregard all this codswallop.
    darklordoftech likes this.
  23. darklordoftech Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 6
    The Rule of Two existing for thousands of years before the "extinction" of the Sith makes perfect sense and could make for interesting stories. Perhaps when Windu arrested Palpatine, he was doing what the Jedi had always done when they identified a Sith Lord.
    Last edited by darklordoftech, Oct 12, 2013
  24. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Did anyone else enjoy the fact that this book laid the smackdown on midichlorian blood transfusions?

    [IMG]
  25. _Catherine_ Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2007
    star 4
    Jedi Ben, Sable_Hart, Ulicus and 3 others like this.