Books The Official Darth Plagueis Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

The fact that Plagueis had a good chance of winning a duel while awake, could be one reason why Sidious attacked Plagueis in his sleep.

 

This. Always seemed clear to me. Palpatine saw his moment and took it. Was it cowardly? Yes. Does it mean he was the weaker of the two and uncertain he'd win in a straight up fight? Yes. And so what?! Secrecy, deceit, trickery, betrayal; all of these are also a part of what it means to be a Dark Lord of the Sith in The Order of the Sith Lords.

 

Palpatine:


Choose someone as a successor and you will inevitably be succeeded.

Choose someone hungrier and you will be devoured.

Choose someone quicker and you won't dodge the blade at your back.

Choose someone with more patience and you won't block the blade at your throat.

Choose someone more devious and you'll hold the blade that kills you.

Choose someone more clever and you'll never know your end.

Despite these cautions, an apprentice is essential. A Master without an apprentice is a Master of nothing.

 

This do not throw off my point, this could be what Luceno said IN ADDITION to this. In short Palpatine knowing he can't defeat Plagueis, but also knowing that his time was getting short with Plagueis around.

 

Wait a minute -- I thought Darth Plagueis was just a huge build-up to the ending which was moralizing about the evils of alcohol?

Plagueis' alcoholism was the REAL monster.

 

No, the tragedy of Darth Plagueis was that he was merely a binge drinker. Maybe if he was a proper alcoholic he wouldn't have passed after a single session.

 

I am really confused that Plagueis would even be foolish enough to get drunk and lower all his guards in front of his apprentice. I think this is another example that shows Plagueis really viewed Palpatine as an equal and not a lesser being.

 

Perhaps Plagueis was feeling so down in the dumps after he lost his homeboys in the Canted Circle debacle and his Sojourn frat house that he was feeling in the mood to relive his glory days that one night. I mean after he lost his frat base what did he do on those lonely Friday nights? I don't remember seeing any old fogeys in the Outlander, so he probably wouldn't be welcome there. And the Coruscant parties Luceno describes sound dreadfully dull and lack the excessive gambling and cage fighting to which he's accustomed.

Besides, he's probably jealous because Palpatine has his Doriana/Pestage buddy team. He's kind of like the dad who inserts himself into his son's social life whenever it's inconveniently awkward. And can't hold his drinks. I wonder how many times Palpatine's had to drag him back to the apartment quasi-conscious in the past?

 

Plagueis wanted to form some sorts of Ying/Yang dualistic unity with Sidious, this he made clear. He wanted to have Sidious control the Galactic Government, while he controlled the Force. He wanted to be the invisible face in the empire while Sidious was the visible one.

However, I don't know if Plagueis viewed Sidious precisely as his equal, he wanted to Sidious to have absolute hold in the realm of matter, while Plagueis wanted absolute hold in the realm of the Force, so in that sense, yes, Plagueis wanted Sidious to be his co-equal. However and here is the thing, Plagueis viewed the normal world as a bad immitation of the world of the Force or something along those lines.

 

I believe that Plagueis overestimated the importance of The Force and that in reality it's the normal world that matters.

 

Indeed, which most likely is one the reasons he got killed. The Force is an aspect of the universe, not its source. Albeit a very powerful aspect.

Given things like the Bedlam Spirits (which showed nigh-omnipotence if not somehow outright omnipotence) leads one to believe that there are forces stronger than the Force.

 

Certain sources seem to act as though the Force is the universe.

 

Not familiar with the Bedlam Spirits. The Wook is very brief on them, however it does say they are indirectly mentioned in Darth Plagueis. Anyone know when that it?

 

When Plagueis goes to Bedlam.

http://books.google.com/books?id=0D...C0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=plagueis bedlam&f=false

 

The mention of "Bedlam" is really only used as a inside joke of sorts in DP, so it won't give you a good idea of what they're really about. Honestly their antics bear more than a passing resemblance to the Mortis trio of TCW. Only more... Alan Moore-ized. Sort of like the Dr. Manhattans of the EU. Sequestered on one planet. And more abstract than a blue naked dude.

 

Considering it's description of a vast energy field that binds all life together, I wouldn't say they're far off. Even the beings one might equate to Gods, The Ones and possibly Celestials, ascend to that level via the Force.

 

An energy field generated by living things.

Is the physical universe in fact generated by living things?

 

At the least, the beings inside it are. Considering that though, it raises the question of which came first, life or the Force. And if so, what created either.

Though i'm also sure Lucas never put this much thought into it.

 

I've always assumed that midichlorians were the very first lifeform and that The Force began as an energy field that they generate.

 

Before this morning i've never once given it any thought cause it didn't matter and would probably never be answered.

At this point i'm inclined to believe everything that currently exists is just left over from the Celestials, given they seem to be cosmic beings beyond comprehension akin to Gods.

 

The Bedlam spirits seem to be above the Celestials, not even the Celestials are credited with omnipotence which the Bedlam Spirits are, their powers bend reality itself.

One of the Bedlam Spirits claimed to have invented time. The way they are shown, it seems the BS could just lift their eyebrow and turn Sidious into a peace loving monk that would put Yoda to shame.

 

that needs to be an infinities story

 

"...The only thing he he was afraid of was losing his power, which eventually of course he did. Unfortunately, he got completely ****faced one evening and hell down the stairs.
Ironic, he could save others from death, but not himself."

 

What do we know about the Celestials?

Speculated that they oversee both Sides of the Force.
Created constructs of terrifying power that have lasted millenia and were capable of moving entire star systems.
The Ones are seen as their descendants.
Arranged Hyperspace lanes.
Believed to guide the actual events of the galaxy itself.
Believed to hold all knowledge of the universe.
Deemed to in the end be a concept that no mortal mind could begin to understand.
Some think they may have merged with the Force itself.

And it goes on. Really, with all the ideas about them I don't think the spirits seem to be above them at all, and they very much seem to be thought of as omnipotent.