Lit The Official Darth Plagueis Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Rogue_Follower, Jan 3, 2012.

  1. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2003
    star 6
    Yeah, that's exactly how I interpreted it. The ambiguity behind Anakin was brilliant.

    Although the story content of the second half of the book ran into Cloak of Deception territory quite a bit, I felt the tone and pace of this novel was completely different. CoD was a bit helter-skelter; DP was basically following the lives of two dudes. Er. Crazy sadistic dudes.


    EDIT: Curse you for beating me to it, SSS! :p
  2. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Brilliant.


    Seems to the theme today, Mah-lady.
    :)
  3. Starkeiller Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2004
    star 4
    Just to dispel the demon of quoting, and to close a cycle, here are quotes casting similar ambiguity on Palpatine's nature:

    Palpatine's fury buffeted Plagueis. Blossoms growing along the sides of the pathway folded in on themselves, and their pollinators began to buzz in agitation. FourDee reacted as well, wobbling on his feet, as if in the grip of a powerful electromagnet. Had this human truly been born of flesh-and-blood parents? Plagueis asked himself. When in fact, he seemed sprung from nature itself. Was the Force so strong in him that it had concealed itself?*

    --

    Cosinga exhaled deeply. "I know that you are of my blood, because I had you tested, just to be certain. But in truth, I don't know where you came from -- who or what you are descended from."


    *This of course, with the added 'he's so evil flowers fold in on themselves in his presence' touch, channels the other ambiguously begotten dude's "Noo" moment in Ep. III.
  4. BuddhaRich Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2009
  5. cwustudent Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2011
    star 4
    Rosemary's Baby: Tenebrous (visiting Plagueis' mother) is like the creepy old man next door, who keeps an eye on Rosemary. And Help me please: Palpatine's father decided to have his son tested, wanting to verify his paternity, and discovered...what about his son?Did Plagueis have a hand in Palpatine's conception? Like Damien from The Omen, Palpatine was created evil? *shivers*
  6. Pfluegermeister Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2003
    star 4
    What he discovered, I believe, is that his son had a high midi-chlorian count; the EU has already established that Force-sensitive beings can manifest spontaneously in families that have never before shown such talents. The father had probably already guessed this was possible from as soon as when he tried to swaddle the son and the infant fought back with a strength greater than his size. What did the father do with this knowledge? We know the son certainly didn't want to go to the Jedi, and the father probably didn't for many reasons of his own, so I suggest the father went to great lengths for the rest of his life to keep it quiet. The book speaks of the boy being moved from school to private school, bailed out of every jam he got himself into - I believe one of the primary reasons for all this effort on the father's part is to keep his son's Force talent from being discovered. I would not even put it past the father to hate his son for the burden this power - and the sting of his son's rejection of him - had lain on a man unprepared to raise such a child. And as the father was clearly abusive in his dialogue with his son, I do not doubt that the son would then sense this resentment and grow to hate the father with even more murderous intent.

    Given this fundamentally dysfunctional father-son dynamic, I'd have to propose that this young man was quite possibly fated to become the man he became practically from the start. A new entry into the debate of nature vs. nurture.
  7. cwustudent Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2011
    star 4
    Back in the day, when it was Sido-Dyas, it was a play on Sidious. I wasn't a fan of Sifo-Dyas, preferred Sido-Dyas. Would you say this book gives Sifo-Dyas a chance to become an interesting character worthy of being responsible for the clone army? I want to say, "Change it back to Sido-Dyas, so we get rid of an unnecessary character, and Obi-Wan doesn't have to wear a fake beard in that scene." On the other hand, I like to think this book will bring Sifo-Dyas into his own, which will only further my SW appetite. :D
  8. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Impossible. He lacked the knowledge, wisdom, understanding, and power at that point in time. Certainly, Plagueis had the will, but he had yet to find the way. He was merely a silent observer on Bal'demnic, he could not have been more insufficiently equiped for that other endeavor.

    Prior to this novel, I secretly hoped there would be more to all that stuff, but am pleased nonetheless.

    Mistresss Coffee surely will attest to the badassery of the moment when the two most-powerful Dark Lords in gffa history acted in complete unison and utter harmony. So unnatural that it....

    Well, lets just say that if mastering death was like playing tictactoe, then Luceno truly wrote without hubris when he wilted those flowers. If you haven't read it, then you don't know the powah, of the Dark Side of the Force. Plagueis tried to create life AND one-up Dark Empire in a single, solo meditation session, so the hubris did end up finding its way home. The aftermath was that cancer (my word there) hit every animal in the vacinity of the chamber and Shmi got pregnant (not stated, but it is known) and hopefully when sleeping. Because Plagueis had remade himself into a dream....

    I'm only surprised that Luceno didn't include the actual quote about how a Sith Lord's true strength resided in their will. But that's some serious nitpicking, for sure.
    :p
  9. The_Forgotten_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 12, 2010
    star 4
    So I had extremely high expectations for this book... and it completely surpassed them. This is the most wonderfully written, deep, and continuity heavy EU book in existence. The level of detail and amount of information that is crafted onto every page is brilliant. I once feared that exposing the origins of Palpatine and revealing information on his master would ruin everything, but Luceno managed to make everything 1000x better and add dozens of new layers to the Sith Grand Plan, while still leaving everything that needed to be ambiguous (Anakin) ambiguous.

    One thing: I wish we had learned the name of Darth Tenebrous master, since he was the one that kickstarted the Grand Plan.
  10. cwustudent Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2011
    star 4
    Impregnating a sleeping Shmi - how mythic! I love it...except I weep for Shmi, being invaded like that. Plagueis is...well...not benevolent. Its creepy.

    Ooooh, that's new to me. Care to elaborate?
  11. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    He certainly paid it forward from an engineering standpoint, the Empire reaped those rewards. Hope the Twi'lek was Ramage, since it was called a rend in the force.

    My white out post has the audacious feat.
    I think.
  12. IG_2000 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2008
    star 4
    So is this book the Heir to the Empire for the new generation, reinvigorating interest in Star Wars through literature?
  13. IG_2000 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2008
    star 4
    Also, are there any connections to Dark Empire in this one? I'm a HUGE defender of that series.
  14. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    The only thing really missing from this book, is the Plagueis theme music on Sojourn, Aborah, Fobosi and the Penthouse.


    The audio book should come with a bonus track of Ian reading the acceptance speech with no mention of Hego D. LFL should seriously consider this.
  15. TalonCard •Author: Slave Pits of Lorrd •TFN EU Staff

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Jan 31, 2001
    star 5
    I'm curious, now that the book is finally out, what did everyone think of having Plagueis die so late in the story? I was expecting him to be around for Anakin's conception, since that had been hinted at before, but never saw him surviving into TPM. Was this Luceno's call, do you think, or an instruction from on high?

    TC
  16. melkor834 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2009
    star 3
    Loved the book, probably my favorite SW novel yet and Plagueis has undoubtedly become my favorite Sith in the EU!

    I'm fairly certain it was when Plagueis and Palpatine forced, well, the Force out of balance so it was tipping towards the dark side. It was described, as knocking a deity off of his throne. But yeah, Plagueis expected the Force to fight back in some way.
    Either that or it was caused by Plagueis's "failed" attempts shortly afterwards.



    Nah. In that case Plagueis is clearly referring to the Force as when he and Palpatine wrested the Force to darkness Plags expected the Froce to fight back. And it didn?t. Plageuis believes Anakin is the Force?s effort to fight back. Doesn?t mean he is right though.

    Interesting. Never knew vegetarians ate hearts, bats, or contemplated eating sentient species. ;)
  17. Matthew Trias Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 1999
    star 6
    So, Palpatine's first name would be Damien, eh?;)
  18. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Fixed.

    In the name of tradition.
    :p
  19. sithreaper Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2004
    star 3
    It all sounds very intriguing; one of the reviews on Amazon said that the book would explain how Palpatine was able to kill the three masters in ROTS so quickly, did it??

    Earlier in the novel Plagueis said he felt stronger with the force yet his Midi levels had remained the same, later when he increases his Midi?s how does he feel? And what does he increase his midi level to??

    Truly the future must always be in motion or why would the force create an all powerful force user because in the end Palpatine wasn?t overpowered he was betrayed.

    Where do the events on Mortis stand now??

    I think when Palpatine again unbalanced the force by drawing Anakin to him, the force pumped up Luke to Anakin?s level to again try to bring balance, only for Anakin to defeat his own personal demons and come through in the end.

    If the force did indeed create Anakin to counter Palpatine, then it stands to reason that when Anakin went rouge the force tried to counter its most powerful creation and likely succeeded by giving him a false vision (probably the first he every experienced) of him successfully jumping over Obi Wan.

    Within the 50 page sample I have read, its states that Midi?s give individuals increased strength (only briefly for those who receive a blood transfusion), I have long held the belief that the stronger you are in the force the stronger you are physically, this has played out in every single saga duel so far (I haven?t really paid attention to the dynamics of the duels in the Clone Wars).



  20. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2003
    star 6
    I may have to look again, because right off the bat I don't recall seeing any. Which is odd, since the book seemed to contain the most obscure references I've ever seen in a Luceno novel (if that's even possible).

    Hmmm... for some reason it didn't really bother me so much. Him knowing about Maul was an interesting move as well. I would think these aren't necessarily Lucas's instructions (although they could very well be), but Luceno would have to have gotten Lucas's express permission to have offed Plagueis when and where he did. I'm curious if there was ever a time Luceno and the Del Rey folks sat down and brainstormed the overall plot of the novel with Lucas in person.
  21. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Edit: My white highlight has the first part that vaguely mirrors DE. Then Plagueis adds more to that on Naboo when he settles the score with the former king.

    Mortis remains unchanged.
    It wasn't Palpatine who needed to be countered at THAT point, IMO.
    The only bones to pick over with this Novel belong to Plagueis and going back to Bal'demnic for the ore. Specifically the midichlorian increase AND the curious decision to simply accept death. As for Bal'demnic, how did they not disturb Tenebrous's remains? Wasn't the ore underneath the grotto cum makeshift tomb? Nothing major, but it did stick out when I read the line meant to be taken in passing. Obviously, the short story guarantees that no one found them, but still. Anyways, I really struggled with Plagueis just getting fried to death, it made little sense....


    Unless Plagueis didn't actually die of course. Then I was Ok.
    Kinda hoping he trapped his essence inside 11-4D.
    Just for kicks.


    Fans would flip their biscuits.
  22. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    At one point, Plagueis does consider, and ultimately dismisses, the idea of using clones as a means of immortality. For him, it's his own body or nothing.

    Haven't quite finished the book yet, but love it so far. Loved Palpatine murdering his family in the manner that he did, and the way his father feared him. Poor Palpy... I can just see him, on the playground, playing with his toys, while his father looks on from a shadowy corner, wanting to murder him... great stuff [face_love]
  23. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    From his interviews, no:

    "I worked most closely with George's right-hand man at Lucas licensing, Howard Roffman. It was a strange way to go about the book, because I kind of had to bypass both Del Rey and the usual editorial staff at Lucasfilm and work directly with Howard over the course of what amounted to about a year of preparation.

    I submitted many, many versions of the outline until we finally reached consensus on where we wanted to go with the book. The marketing text about ?this is canon at the highest level? ? I suppose that's true, that a lot of the stuff came from the very top levels of Lucasfilm. Everything was approved at that high level. I had to make the assumption that Howard was speaking directly with George about a lot of this stuff. I didn't have any meetings directly with George, but it seemed like a lot of the approval was coming through him to Howard. I was not privy to all of the things that happened behind the scenes."



    Nice that he out of his way on the dedication page to thank the LFL-go-between; Roffman, for all of his input & assistance.:)
  24. Darth_Calgmoth Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2006
    star 2
    As I see it, Plagueis interpreted Anakin as answer of the Force to his and Sidious's force-shifting ritual.

    Although it's possible that Plagueis might have created him with experiments after Sidious departed, Plagueis himself does not seem to believe this. I honestly assumed that all the dealing with Gardulla were only the prelude for showing us Plagueis receiving Shmi Skywalker as a gift to experiment on. This would have fit nicely with the story.

    And despite being a fool for trusting Palpatine, Plagueis would have not make Sidious's mistake when dealing with Anakin/Vader. He was way too wary about this strange development, while Palpatine was, of course, blinded by his arrogance.

    Oh, and by the way, why the hell needed Plagueis this breathing apparatus? He could heal and rejuvenate himself through the force, so why was he not able to deal with that problem? And what's all that stuff in the Prologue about Plagueis having failed in his quest. The man was immortal, after all. Of course, he could be killed through violence, but he would never have died a natural death. Palpatine seem to indicate that he has learned all of Plagueis's secrets, but has he? As far as we know, he has to put the essence transfer technique back together to make his own way to immortality, so he can't have that fluent in all those MC techniques, can he?
  25. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Sidious mused about his power, about how far behind he was.... then at the end, he ranted and explained how actual power didn't matter as much as brains. I think the breath mask was simply left in as the means to Plagueis's end. His scars had barely finished fading, not sure about how long it take for the regrowth of his missing bone and facial parts. But he was definitely immortal. He showed Sidious that one could kill and revive another through the force, but he didn't teach the method. Jedi use midis to move boulders and stones; while Bane's Sith moved from messing with boulders and stones to repairing blood vessels and damaged tissue, then beyond....