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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Amph The OFFICIAL Doctor Who Episode Countdown - Nos. 3 & 4

Discussion in 'Community' started by halibut, Nov 1, 2011.

  1. hudzu

    hudzu Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 1, 2003
    so the whole "destroying an entire species and time-locking his own people into oblivion (twice) to save the galaxy, at great cost to his soul" thing does nothing for you?

    this is the doctor, stop talking like he's never done **** like that before.
     
  2. AaylaSecurOWNED

    AaylaSecurOWNED Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2005
    I don't know, if he were really going to die I would agree with you, but he's not, he's just regenerating, he's done this 9 times before and to my knowledge has never been such a whiny jerk about it. I only think it was written that way and all of the "but it still FEELS like dying and I'll be DIFFERENT afterwards!" stuff was written in because, like Ross said, RTD felt like HIS Doctor was the ULTIMATE Doctor and that this death/regeneration was somehow more special and meaningful than all of the previous ones... and I do want to state for the record that Ross and I pretty much never agree about Doctor Who. Ever.

    Also, it's one thing for him to be afraid to die just to save one insignificant old man, and I agree that he's allowed to be afraid about it and all of that. It's another thing entirely to TELL Wilf to his face that he doesn't want to save him. That makes him an *******, not a hero, in my opinion. It's not the kind of character flaw or weakness that endeared me to him, it made me glad to be rid of him.
     
  3. Asterix_of_Gaul

    Asterix_of_Gaul Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2007
    RTD felt like HIS Doctor was the ULTIMATE Doctor

    Granted, X was the best incarnation ever thanks to David Tennant, so... :p
     
  4. AaylaSecurOWNED

    AaylaSecurOWNED Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2005
    I don't know, I liked him about equal with 9 and I like 11 a bit more.
     
  5. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
    Yeah, RTD was being a complete ****, here. The whole thing pissed me off.

    "Some new man saunters away. And I'm dead."

    WHAT THE ****!? :mad:

    Even if we went with New Who exclusively, that's BS. Off the top of my head:

    Ten: Rose, it's me. Honestly, it's me. I was dying. To save my own life, I changed my body. Every single cell, but I'm still me. (2005 CIN special)

    Ten: I'm him. I'm literally him. Same man, different face. Well, different everything. (The Christmas Invasion)

    Ten: You're not dying, don't be stupid -- it's only a bullet -- just regenerate. (Last of the Time Lords)
     
  6. solojones

    solojones Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2000
    I'll grant that I think Davies was doing a bit of that, but I don't think it's entirely unwarranted nor do I think he's the only one who felt that way. He didn't do that with Nine, only Ten. And yes, he himself was leaving, but I think it had more to do with how nearly universally beloved David Tennant was in the role than RTD being self-aggrandizing. It was a unique regeneration in a lot of ways, but frankly I don't really care. If anyone deserved an epic, burning down the house sort of exit, it was Tennant. At least probably in the minds of a large portion of fans. I'm sure his exit still wasn't to the taste of some people who really liked him, but I'm just saying I saw it as being more about fan sentiment toward Tennant than about anything to do with Davies.

    As far as it being regeneration and not death... well, we talked about this a little earlier in the thread. I will just repeat that just because other versions of the Doctor didn't feel that way about regeneration doesn't mean Ten didn't. I feel like it fit with his personality. He shows much more depth of feeling about absolutely everything than any other Doctor has. He's the most human of any of them. Whether you like that take or not, that's clearly how he was always portrayed. I think he'd have a fairly human reaction because he has fairly human reactions to most things. It's not that he's really dying, it's simply that it feels like it because he's losing a lot of himself after having lost basically everything else during this incarnation. For all that, Ten's a character who enjoys life and enjoys strutting around the Universe like he owns the place. I can see why it would be hugely daunting to not have any idea what kind of man you'd be after regeneration.

    And I don't think him going off on Wilfred makes him an ass. You act as though that's a flaw too far, that it's something beyond the pale. It just seems normal to me. Wilfred clearly knows he doesn't really mean it. He's just saying things out of anger, and he's not even really saying them to Wilfred. I should think someone as clever and experienced as Wilfred would know that. For all the things that the Tenth Doctor does and says, he has managed to bottle up and repress a whole lot of anger, much of it justified. He hasn't really gone off before The Waters of Mars. He just kind of starts to fall apart at the end. Donna said he needed people to stop him and she was right. I thought showing how distressed and angry Ten got there went a long way to explaining that it was time for him to regenerate. Like I said, worried as he was about it, ultimately becoming Eleven and having a different, more accepting lease on his life was a blessing. But I don't know, I think that moment for Ten was earned in the course of the show.


    Yes, of course it does something for me. I think that backstory is the most brilliant part of New Who and creates pretty much all of the opportunities to explore the character more deeply in the show. I'm just saying it applies here as well. And I liked that it wasn't on a huge scale. As the Doctor will always point out, there's no such thing as an unimportant person. But it's one thing to say it and another to see him be willing to give up one of his incarnations for it when he really doesn't want to. The fact that he didn't want to made it more honorable to me. For a character who regularly saves the universe, it was nice for it to come down to just saving one person.



    Obviously, like I said, people are going to react differently to things. And that's fine. I'm not trying to convince anyone to like it, just expressing why I did and why I thought it was well done. I'm just rather surpr
     
  7. Koohii

    Koohii Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 30, 2003
    I still have not heard a decent explanation for why the Tardis blew up during the 10=>11 regeneration.
    No reason whatsoever.
    "Because he was regenerating" --sorry, don't buy it. The first doctor regenerated in the tardis, and so did the 5th and 6th, and 9th. And so did the Master. And 10 had the regeneration/human-timelord hybrid thing. None of that triggered anything like that kind of reaction. So why? It's not like the tardis was damaged. C'mon, it had the titanic ram into it while the defenses were down, it was stripped down to be a paradox engine, and rebuilt both times. With no lasting ill effects.

    Yeah, I know Moffat wanted to redo the tardis interior. Fine. But why not just have 11 decide to cheer the place up a bit or redecorate or something? Or just flip a couple of switches to change the desktop theme (stupid line, but there it is).

    So, to me, End of Time is just a non-sense episode overloaded with emotion in an effort to hide the lack of substance and story.
    I was very glad that RTD was leaving. Until I saw the bloody shambles that Moffat made of the show.
     
  8. Asterix_of_Gaul

    Asterix_of_Gaul Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2007
    Because the Tenth Doctor held off his own regeneration for a significant amount of time and because explosions are more fun than changing desktop themes.
     
  9. solojones

    solojones Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2000
    Yeah I mean I just figured if he was fighting against the regeneration energy, it kind of exploding out made sense enough to me. New Who has already established that regeneration is now a bit of an explosive energy, so holding it down and trying to contain it would logically just create more of an explosion. And maybe the TARDIS wasn't too happy about him going either. The manner of regeneration has changed a lot over the years. It's fine with me if it's different for different Doctors.
     
  10. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
    In The Next Doctor, the Doctor was positively giddy when he thought he'd met a future incarnation. Far from terrified by the prospect of change, it seemed to excite him.

    Sure, the Doctor loved being in his 10th incarnation and, sure, regenerating after less than a decade (or whatever) was bound to be very upsetting... but forgetting that it was only an incarnation was pretty much inexcusable.

    The Tenth Doctor isn't freaking "sleeping". He's Eleven.
     
  11. Koohii

    Koohii Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 30, 2003
    Nope. Not buying that one either. Sorry.
    A change in regeneration would be welcome--the yellow flames were nifty the first time, but one of the things that was always interesting before is that everyone (not just The Doctor) regenerated differently each time. (OK, we only got to see the Tibetan monk and Romanavaratralunda, and arguably The Master, but each was very different.) Now it just seems like one stock effect. Eh.
     
  12. MrZAP

    MrZAP Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 2, 2007
    I just wanted to say that I agree with Rachel on practically everything she's said so far on this topic.

    Also, I think the big explode-y regeneration also worked for Ten's character. Ten had a big, outgoing personality that was all over the place. He was so excitable and bouncy. It doesn't seem to me to be an injustice when his regeneration was just as flashy as he was in general.
     
  13. Mar17swgirl

    Mar17swgirl Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Dec 26, 2000
    I completely agree with IJG, Dani and Ulicus on the issue of Ten's regeneration.
     
  14. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
    Yeah....

    It's not something that used to bother me... but I'm kind of bored of it, now, and I wish they'd mix it up again.

    They could -- at the very least -- deviate from the "Time Lord stands there, cruciform, while he regenerates" thing. Have him regenerate under water, or something. That could be cool.
     
  15. Koohii

    Koohii Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 30, 2003
    How about the skin bubbles and swells,sort of a moving blisters effect, as they transition from person to person. Maybe make it look painful as all the cells in his body rearrange and change. He can stare at his hand and clench and unclench his fist. And have the old skin sort of trickle down in dust and evaporate with a nice bluish glow. Maybe a couple convulsions.

    see, I don't just whine and gripe--I throw out ideas and suggestions...
     
  16. Darth_Daver

    Darth_Daver Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2005
    I rated End of Time II higher than I because it has less of the Master idiocy (and I don't mind the long goodbyes). How has Sound of Drums not appeared yet? A John Simm Master should have been excellent, but was completely ruined by taking the idea of having him be a mirror to the Doctor, yet amplifying every characteristic the Master shouldn't have way beyond Doctor levels. It was bad in Sound of Drums, and worse in End of Time (so I guess on that alone EoT is rightly appearing first).
     
  17. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jul 24, 2005
    I wish we'd got more Jacobi Master. :p
     
  18. halibut

    halibut Ex-Mod star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 27, 2000
    I was right. Rebel Flesh two parter much better on second viewing.
     
  19. Asterix_of_Gaul

    Asterix_of_Gaul Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2007
    Because the style of regeneration fit the personality of the Tenth Doctor and because he was reluctant to lose that version of himself. It was a regeneration that was unique to the 10th Doctor as most regenerations have been unique for all the Doctors.

    Except it wasn't, because it was much more explosive than the regeneration of the 9th Doctor--it blew up the interior of the Tardis.

    And it was simply rebuilt again with no lasting ill effects, with a new version of the Doctor, with new tastes, and a Tardis that would adapt to said tastes.

    What confuses me is that you seem to like that different Doctors have had different versions of regeneration, and you accept that the Tardis can be both damaged and repaired. It's not that it doesn't make sense based on what came before, I think the issue is just that you don't like it.

    From a writing standpoint, how X regenerates makes dramatic sense. It would have been horribly anti-climatic for that version of the Doctor to go from this enormous fear of losing that version of himself to "poof, no big deal." Moreover, it just wouldn't have been as emotionally satisfying for 80% of viewers. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with it, or not liking it, but it really does make sense for that version of the Doctor and for the story RTD was telling.

    And as you've already admitted, it's also not like "Doctor Who" follows particularly strict guidelines when it comes to how each Doctor has regenerated--

    you've said so yourself: "everyone (not just The Doctor) regenerated differently each time."

    So, there are many possible reasons why X regenerated the way he did that make sense.

    To name a few possibilities:

    1.It's dramatically satisfying for the viewer (obviously with the exception of some)--it's essentially catharthis personified.
    2. The Doctor didn't want to lose the tenth version of himself. He saved his hand to avoid regenerating into a new form, because apparently, the Doctor loved being this version.
    3.Perhaps he was even afraid that given the amount of grief X had to endure, that a follow-up version of himself wouldn't be able to cope with it.
    4.Or maybe it's because he didn't want to give up the love of people that he felt so strongly as that version of himself--the ability to emotionally feel things in ways that he had not before.
    5. Maybe in addition to being reluctant to change forms, he also held off his own regeneration longer than he has in the past--he held it off for a very long time while he went to "get his reward." He was physically suffering trying to hold it back when he last sees Rose.
    6. He says himself that he doesn't want to go. So he's been putting off this change, and resisted it until the last possible second, but in the end accepts that a new form is better, perhaps, than death.

    I also agree with everything SJ has said and:

     
  20. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jul 24, 2005
    It was unique in that it blew up the TARDIS, certainly, but it was still the same stock effect they've been using for regeneration since the beginning of NuWho. It can't really be held up as a "unique regeneration" in the way Four-Watcher-Five or Seven-Eight can.
     
  21. Asterix_of_Gaul

    Asterix_of_Gaul Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2007
    Well I mean technically it's different, but yeah, it's not an entirely new method of regeneration either. But if you compare 9-10 vs 10-11, the effect is much more drawn out and explosive (obviously) from 10-11. So it just looks like it would damage one's surroundings given its intensity. Moreover, so what if it's not completely new? There's no reason why it has to be completely new. It serves the character.

    Like I said, it just makes sense for 10. Everything about it fits his version of the Doctor. I'd also say that 10 is much more similar to 9 than he is to 11, so I'm curious to see what they will do from 11-12.

    Perhaps this regeneration effect is just what they're going to stick with for NuWho from here on out.
     
  22. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jul 24, 2005
    To be clear, I don't give a crap that he blew up the TARDIS. I'm just bored of the stock effect. And pointing out that Ten's wasn't a unique regeneration "as most regenerations have been unique for all other Doctors".

    It was just Nine's regeneration turned up to Eleven.

    ...

    lol

    Given Moffat's had River regenerate twice and Eleven fake it once using the stock effect, I'm not expecting anything new. It's too well established on NuWho at this point.

    I'd love it if we did get something completely different, though.
     
  23. solojones

    solojones Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 27, 2000
    How is something a "boring stock effect" the second time it's used for a Doctor's regeneration :confused:
     
  24. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jul 24, 2005
    Third time. He was pulling a Nine before he siphoned it off into his hand, too.

    And, before that, all the Master really got to set himself apart were different colours.
     
  25. solojones

    solojones Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2000
    That's true, I suppose (I've always felt like that technically makes Tennant the Tenth and Eleventh Doctor since he just... regenerated into himself :p). But I mean, clearly they just decided they were always going to make regeneration look the same now. It serves the narrative purpose of the audience knowing what's happening without having to be told. When Eleven or River glow yellow you just think, "Uh oh, regeneration." It may not be as fun as having it be different all the time but it's certainly easier from a creative perspective.