The Official EU Debate: Which of the Solo Twins is Stronger in the Force: Jacen or Jaina?

Ok folks here is the deal.

I went up to DA and asked him about a thread like this.

Every week a character will be up for topic of debate. Both fans and detractors are welcome for discussion. But this discussion is meant for debate and to understand characters better. No flaming. No coming and in and just saying "so and so rules" Ya do that it will get deleted. You flame there will be consequences. Come on in state your opinions in a clear concise way. Do not make claims without proof and do not sit there and say this is the way it is because i said so. We will welcome intelligent discussion and will never look down upon any idea. But be prepared to defend yourself and your ideas. We hope to increase character understanding, enjoyment of the EU, and just have some fun.

The first character up for debate is Luke Skywalker. Have at him. Whether it be darkside corruption or his life ant times. Do not however turn this into a debate about other characters. Stick to Luke and only Luke. Go for it folks.

OWLC

 

Good idea...

 

I would like to open the debate with Luke Skywalker and the influence of the Dark Side.

We saw Lukes temptation at the end of RotJ and the Dark Side was what enabled him to actually beat Darth Vader. In Dark Empire, Luke gives himself to the Dark Side and we find him contolling the reborn Emperor's World Devastators and fleets across the Galaxy centrally from Byss.

What I want to know is: is Luke Skywalker stronger on the Dark Side? Has anyone noticed him using different powers as a result and does the Dark Side forever taint a Jedi like a drug, giving them a predeliction towards a "relapse" (cite Kyp Durron, Mara Jade, possibly Count Dooku)?

Let's get talking, crew!

 

It is easy to succumb to the pressures of the Dark smile than discipline your mind to follow the path of Lightside. So, in a sense, as far as short-term power goes, almost everyone is more powerful when they use the Darkside rather than the Lightside. But for the long-term effects Lightside is more powerful.

It is my belief that the Darkside destroys life. While the Lightside of the Force builds on life to sustain itself, the Darkside "eats," so as to speak, life to remain alive, itself.

Besides, the Darkside is unstable. It dictates that you use your anger and fear and hatred - which are all unpredictable emotions. You just don't get angry because a fly is buzzing around your ear and being a nuiescence (though you do get annoyed ). It is only when you are feeling extremely angry or afraid that you become especially powerful in the Darkside.

But i think the Lightside is different. You get great happiness from even the tiniest of events. If your friend tells you that you rock, then you feel happy. If you get full points on your college test, you get happy. So, while you won't be able to be extremely powerful, you are more uniformly powerful in the Lightside of the Force. And when you have long, drawn out conflicts, being a Jedi does pay off.

Anyway, this is about Luke. Right. So, since Luke followed the Darkside for some time - even if it was only for a little time - it sways his decisions, his behavior. It influences him subconsciously. He might think otherwise, but that's reality.

I also happen to think that Luke will always be having temptations to go over to the Darkside. It's rather like alcohol - only in a more grandoise, ethical, important way. Suppose you are an alcoholic, and then with immense difficulty turned away from it. Whenever you see a bottle of rum or whatever, you still feel a slight pull to go pick it up. If you do pick it up, and drink only a sip, you will again become an addict unless you have strong will.

Luke has the strong will, but the Darkside isn't as alcohol. It is very easy to fall for it. So Luke might fall too.

Okay, I really don't know why I'm saying all this, as this doesn't answer anything.

To reply to your question: Darth_Attorney : Just refer to what I said about the Darkside in general way over in the top.

Aunecah_Skywalker

 

Anyway, this is about Luke. Right. So, since Luke followed the Darkside for some time - even if it was only for a little time - it sways his decisions, his behavior. It influences him subconsciously. He might think otherwise, but that's reality.

I also happen to think that Luke will always be having temptations to go over to the Darkside. It's rather like alcohol - only in a more grandoise, ethical, important way. Suppose you are an alcoholic, and then with immense difficulty turned away from it. Whenever you see a bottle of rum or whatever, you still feel a slight pull to go pick it up. If you do pick it up, and drink only a sip, you will again become an addict unless you have strong will.

I see where you are going with this Aunecah. I just wonder if Luke really let the darkside become an addiction. Like say Vader. Luke did dabble in it with the reborn Emperor and let loose with it a little at the end of RoTJ, but I am unsure if he really let it become the addiction it does to many others. Did it taint Luke? Yeah it did, but in a few different ways. With someone who tastes the darkside, usually one of two things can happen. One, you fall deeper into it and keep using it. Two you avoid it so much, you end up avoiding doing things which even though they may not be of the dark side if you think they almost could be you avoid them. It has to be tough to walk that line and not cross over, but if you stay far over to the side, do you end up limiting yourself? When it comes to Luke and relapses, I am never sure if you see him relapsing as much as his path was lead astray by the darkside. He was on one path before hand and then later on it became something totally different. Ever since then he has been struggling to choose that right path. The NJO has magnified this immensely. You can see Luke struggling with trying to decide where the line is and what the right thing to do. Every book he is able to narrow that line and find it better. I hope more with this is shown in DW.

OWLC

 

The thing I never liked is the excuse he made for going over, I don't have the exact quote, but: "I have to find out why my father went over. COnquer the darkside from within." But why? Why did he think that he HAD to go to the darkside? Doesn't make any sense to me.

 

Its a question which I have pondered myself Liz. One which kinda lacks an answer even today. Maybe one day they will touch upon why he felt he needed to conquer things from the inside. Was it to see what his father went thru or was it to see just how powerful the darkside was.

OWLC

 

This happened in a comic, so I don't really know for sure, but didn't Luke turn to the Dark Side under the apprenticeship of the clone Emperor while trying to "infiltrate" and stop him?

 

Yeah that is what happened, but a tad more complicated.

OWLC

 

Luke went to the Dark Side in the first installment of the "Dark Empire" comic series. He did so to stop the reborn Emperor who it turned out was a hugely powerful SIth spirit who could inhabit the form of fully grown clones. The clones would age at an zaccelerated speed which meant he'd have to continuously jump from clone to clone to avoid total disembodiment.

"He was on one path before hand and then later on it became something totally different..."

But Yoda says that once one starts down the dark path, forever will it dominate one's destiny. It's not just something you can shake off as a learning experience. Around the same time as "Dark Empire" there was the comic series called "Dark Lords Of The Sith" which saw a young Jedi (was it Ulic Qel-Droma?) join a sect of Dark Side users called the Krath so he could take them down from the inside. Of course he was seduced by the Dark Side and became a Sith Lord even though he was sure he could resist it.

 

But Yoda says that once one starts down the dark path, forever will it dominate one's destiny. It's not just something you can shake off as a learning experience. Around the same time as "Dark Empire" there was the comic series called "Dark Lords Of The Sith" which saw a young Jedi (was it Ulic Qel-Droma?) join a sect of Dark Side users called the Krath so he could take them down from the inside. Of course he was seduced by the Dark Side and became a Sith Lord even though he was sure he could resist it.

If the dark side were to truly dominate one's destiny than would redemption truly be possible? I have always believe Yoda said that to make Luke as wary of the darkside as possible. Not because its the absolute truth. It almost felt like one of those points of view things. Perhaps dominating your destiny means you will always be wary of it afterwards or perhaps it will be something totally different. If only the green one had been able to tell us more.

OWLC

 

Perhaps Yoda was just trying to instill fear in Luke? And then sometime before DE Luke realized that the dark side does not forever dominate one's destiny, perhaps after encountering his father aboard the DSII.

Or maybe Luke still has the taint of the darkside within him even into the NJO. Recall in RD when Luke decided he had to go to Coruscant, because he wanted to get rid of the "prematurely old wise man on a mountain" myth that his students were perpetuating. Perhaps, following Anakin's death and Jacen's capture, that little bit of the darkside took over and pushed him to more to attack the Yuuzhan Vong.

Of course, Jacen's vision of Luke as "blindingly bright and good," tends to disabuse any notion that Luke still had darkness within him. (Unless the Force was personifying the Dark Side and Light Side in the Yuuzhan Vong and Luke respectively.)

 

Ok just to move a little over with the Luke discussions. What do you think about the pressures Luke has faced throughout the EU. To have the whole of the tradition of the jedi placed on your shoulders and its failure or success on you. Including training new jedi, discovering more history, and teacings about the force and still trying to help a burgeoning government.

OWLC

 

Of course it's a huge burden to bear. I think in the novels, one of the best descriptions that really placed it for me was that there were no warriors in peace time. Everyone has to adapt to the new climate and while I think Luke was uneasy with his transition to war hero and Galactic touchstone it was an absolutely necessary one to make.

Because what else would he have been if not that warrior/sage we've all come to accept him as? ?

 

Yeah, but he never really had a chance to be anything except a warrior/sage. Except for a few years between Vision of the Future and the NJO, the galaxy has been one crisis after another which Luke had to deal with. I think what's helped him is sharing the burden with others, like Kam, Corran, Tionne, etc.

 

Actually I am gonna have to say there were many times when The New Republic was not in all out war. Sure at times they were, but many other times throughout the books the conflicts were smaller. Or did not involved the entire Empire vs New Republic type battles.

OWLC

 

Well if it wasn't stuff like the Empire/Warlords attacking the Republic, then it was stuff like Kueller or Brakiss that only Luke could only deal with.

 

But Luke was not the only one to deal with them. He went off during the black fleet crisis to follow a woman who was supposed to help him find his mother. He went with Han and found a blob with gold scales. He had his moments where war was not on his mind.

OWLC

 

and he had six lost years between the time he got married to the beginning of the "Vong War" during which he was teaching his niece and nephews to be Jedi.

 

Yeah, he had some downtime, but war/fighting took up the vast majority of his life.

 

I agree. It's like he has huge periods of time when all he is thinking is about the galaxy, and for a couple of minutes or hours or days (at max.) he thinks about himself. It's all so sad. In NJO, after Ben's birth, you would think his time era-s would get a little more even, but they've just become a lot more irregular.

Aunecah_Skywalker

 

Its also tough for Luke to have such a balance because through long parts of his life he lacked things. He lacked someone to love for long stretches in his life. He lacked a mentor ever since RoTJ. Now that he has things like a core family, and more he lacks the time to enjoy it. One day he will find the time. I hope.

OWLC

 

I agree. He basically lacks everything. When he does have something that he never thought he would have, he basically lacks time to enjoy what he has been given.

Luke is perhaps the most tragic character in SW after Obi.

Aunecah_Skywalker

 

lets see - at least 20 years fighting the Empire..... (From the movie A New Hope to the book Vision of the Future).....and now.....he's fighting the Vong while trying to raise a family......



Poor Luke!

 

I know, Jedi_Liz .

Aunecah_Skywalker