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Art Archive The *OFFICIAL* Fan-To-Pro Thread

Discussion in 'Fan Art' started by Otis_Frampton, Jun 2, 2002.

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  1. AbanRune Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2002
    I'll just jump in here. I hope I don't retread anything that's already been mentioned.

    In my skimming of this topic, someone mentioned a fear that there won't be any jobs for someone who majored in Illustration. That fear is well justified, but shouldn't necessarily be prohibitive. It all comes down to how smart you are about what you learn while you're in school. I wasn't all that smart and sort of had to play catch up after school. I also majored in illustration and had a "thing" about design.

    "I don't want to be a designer, I want to be an illustrator. I'm going to blow off my design classes."

    Bad idea. Fortunately, I got I didn't completely give myself over to that attitude and actually got quite a bit out of some of them. I also took Photoshop classes which gave me a great platform to build some experience on.

    Experience is the key here. The benefit of art school over a "regular" college is that you are immerses in that kind of work and get more direct experience with it.

    Ad companies love people who can draw and create traditional art, but very few of them have the need to keep an illustrator on staff. Learn about design, learn about printing, learn about the web, learn to see beauty and excitement and coolness in doing ads about pet food and shoelaces because, trust me... those are kinds of jobs you'll start out with.

    Just my two cents. Don't blow off anything and learn every darn thing someone will teach you.
  2. Trev-Solo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2001
    star 1
    "and education as your foundation"

    Trev
  3. Otis_Frampton LFL Artist, Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2001
    star 4
  4. Otis_Frampton LFL Artist, Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2001
    star 4
    Up again, just in case . .

    -Otis
  5. TheBalinakaBaroness Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 14, 2002
    star 4
    We haven't had a good discussion in here for a long time.

    How about a new topic - Comics. This is what I think about everyday and drive people crazy with all my questions.

    Anyone have suggestions, tips, advice, influences experiences they would like to share about the journey of being a comic book artist? You don't have to be a professional, maybe you'd like to be, so what are you doing about it? How are ya gonna get there? Please share!

    -Baroness
  6. Punisher Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 1998
    star 4
    Comics...

    Uh oh...

    This one is for you, B.B., but I figure I'd better share this with everyone... (Everyone else: If it seems a bit harsh, well, get a thick skin, you'll need it to get anywhere in art or life.)

    Let's just say that in my time as a comics fan/collector and lax artist wanna-be (13+ years) that you need connections, creativity, knowledge of art & comics history/techniques, education, practice, luck, talent and a need to stay in the game.

    Every article I've ever read about comic artists (great ones anyway, I'm not talking about the "Hot" WIZARD fan artists that won't be drawing a book 5 to 10 years from now...), they had a complete understanding of drawing,they could draw anything and it is structually correct, as a drawing, not just a fancy style with poor drawing principals, they could draw, not just in a "comic-book" style, they understood design, compositition, etc.
    (In my mind, comic artists are the best artists, to create some of the work that I've seen for years under deadlines, life's problems, etc. is AWESOME!)
    They had an understanding of storytelling, they could "tell" the story with pictures alone, no dialogue, no captions. That is more than drawing 4 double page spreads and 3 big panels per page etc.
    They thought about their work, agonized over it in some cases and they were NEVER satisfied.

    The work schedule is tough, many of the articles I've read talked about long hours and drawing all the time all day, everyday, to meet the publishing schedule. No time off for holidays, weekends or vacations, if they are doing well. The deadline is everything.

    I'm sure there are people that have spent many years trying to break into comics and have never made the big time, it's a entertainment industry, the same as movies or T.V., you may be a "Big Mac" artist somewhere before you get a job with a big name publisher.

    (B.B., if you want anymore help, there are lots of books out there to help you to get in, but as I was once told by a comic signing honcho one time, "Yeah, there are lots of guys like you out there." Don't expect it to be easy.
    I'm sure that you would have a better shot at it with your experience, than someone like me that never got out of the starting gate and doesn't particularly expect that they have a future in art anymore.
    E-mail me if you want to pursue this, and I'll see if I can help you, no one ever helped me... that's why I'm commenting. I'm not online very much anymore, you can try to PM me, but if I don't respond it's due to other distractions.)

    To any of the other "fanboy-comic-wannabe" artists, quit ripping off Joe Madureia, Jim Lee, the Kubert Bros., any other wanna-be American/Manga superhero artist or ex-Image artist... since I've read and collected comics for such a long time, don't expect the loyal, silent comic fans (like myself) to make you a "Hot" WIZARD artist...
    I'm not paying my money to see a watered down rip-off that got into the industry because some publisher wanted a quick buck, I can read the work done comics by those artists, instead of seeing you pay "homage" or "emulate" their style.
    Bring something new to the table or play comic artist at home, I'm sick of comic arist "clones"... even though that stuff is popular, in the long run, THAT won't make you a real comic legend like Joe Kubert, Frank Miller, John Romita, John Buscema, Gil Kane, Todd McFarlane, George Perez, etc.
    If you don't want anyone to remember or respect your work 'cause you were a "clone", what's the friggin' point?

    If you do succeed and get "in", be different, draw well, tell a good story, don't crap stuff out and never, never underestimate the fans or take them for granted.
    I know, there are artists that I'll follow to lots of books that I'd never read normally, because they were involved.

    Just the same, there are lots of artists that were more interested in being "creator/owners" just so they could milk the fans for their money without ever being very "creative" with their creations or doing their best work on their creations. Tru
  7. Duke-Dogwalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2002
    star 4
    I grew up reading comic books, and most deffinitely wanted to draw comics back then...

    I don't read 'em much any more, but i still poke my nose into the comic shop now and again, and the old magic still pushes it's way forwards from the back of my mind?

    The Punisher?s pretty much covered everything, and I totally agree with what he was saying about drawing ability. All the best artists have had fantastic styles, but each has been underpinned by a complete grasp of shape and space. A lot of comics (the stuff I used to read, anyway?) involve a lot of action. Looking back, I think the ability to capture movement was something that all my favourites seemed to have as well.

    So I think, that when I looked at something and thought, ?wow!?, it was usually well drawn, full of movement, and had bags of character too.

    I?ve actually got loads more to say ? but I?m too tired right now ? I?ve just got off a plane and I need food and sleep!

    :)
  8. TheBalinakaBaroness Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 14, 2002
    star 4
    Thanks for all of your advice Punisher - all really good stuff. It's a harsh world, but I don't think it's impossible. It's the same for any creative field, I think. It takes a lot of drive, perseverence, connections, and a sprinkling of talent in there.

    I wasn't really asking for personal help for myself on how to break into the industry, though it is greatly appreciated. I really wanted to get a discussion going about what people like in comics, if you're a comic artist what are you personally doing to follow your dream. I know there are a lot of comic fans in here, you just need to look in the Artistic Influences thread to see that 90% of the artists listed are comics artists.

    One of Duke-Dogwalker's comments I think is great:

    when I looked at something and thought, ?wow!?, it was usually well drawn, full of movement, and had bags of character too.

    This is the kind of thing I'd love to hear from folks - What do you look for in a comic. What makes you pick it up off the shelf?

    I think analyzing those kinds of questions are invaluable for moving from Fan-to-Pro status - by learning what people like, what works (doesn't work) feeds into making more professional-quality work, hopefully more likely to find an audience, and of course help you to improve your art and storytelling skills.

    Just to keep this going, me personally, I've been reading everything I can get my hands on regarding storytelling. And not just for comics - how to write plays, novels, create characters - it all relates. Storyboarding for movies, writing for children's books, I could go on and on. I'm not a big fan of How to Draw type Cartooning books. I think they're a fine place to start if you have no other training, but to limit yourself to those is only going to create more unoriginal clones, as Punisher pointed out. Even if you want to be, say, a Marvel artist, they would find you a much more valuable asset if you had more breadth of skill than just being able to draw the perfect Spiderman.

    As far as what I look for in a comic - great art and a unique viewpoint. I have relatively no interest in tights-clad superheroes (well, except maybe some Batman ;) ). I like the books that have a little quirkiness, some humour. If it has a strong independent style, and strong sense of design, I will automatically pick it up off the shelf and flip through it.

    Well, enough rambling from me. I want to hear from you!

    ~Baroness





  9. Punisher Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 1998
    star 4
    I won't deny that comics and comic based art is a touchy subject for me.

    I happen to have many of those "How to draw books" that you mentioned and I happen to have a few that a majority of the "wanna be's" out there don't have, because they feature artists that aren't "hot" names today, but would have been if comics had more attention 50/60 years ago.
    The point of the "How to draw" books isn't for the student to copy the style in the way they are done, it's for the student to learn the basics of drawing and what is required of them. Good fundamentals of perspective, anatomy, expression, posing, color theory, etc. transcend style. You need to know them to be a good artist. The storytelling aspects, I feel, need to be addressed after you feel more comfortable with the drawing aspects.
    I also have some books on painting,fantasy art, perspective (my Achilles heel), anatomy, storytelling/storyboarding, airbrushing, computer illustration and 3D programs, all of these interests can work together to give someone a good artistic foundation. Mind you, I still don't feel I have one... but there needs to be more than a standard "How to draw" book in your art library...

    Here's a story, maybe it has some relevance to the topic...

    When I started out drawing, I didn't have many comic books. I had a few that survived my move from California (Star Wars/Spider-Man) to Tennessee and those books were my inspiration as a kid until I started watching G.I.Joe & Transformers cartoons on a black & white t.v.!
    I wasn't able to collect comics regularly until 1989, when I went to see Batman and a comic dealer had a table set-up outside.
    Even then, I stuck with what I knew old SW, G.I. Joe & Transformers.
    (I only got into the Punisher because the cover had ninjas on it, any G.I. Joe fan will tell you Snake-Eyes and Storm-Shadow were THE reason to read G.I.Joe.)

    Unlike many of the people that post here, I was caught up in the "hot" comics/creators of the mid to late 90's. Spawn, The Punisher, Wolverine, X-Men and the spin-offs, Spider-Man.
    I followed Rob Liefeld, Jim Lee, Marc Silvestri and co. to Image. I stayed with Marvel to see the Kuberts move onto the X-Men and into "hot" status, I saw Marvel try to make a new breed of "hot" artists, Jae Lee on Namor, for example.
    Saw the rise and fall of Valiant, Malibu, etc.

    I think the fall-out of those times is what makes me hesitant to want to try and get into the comics industry.
    First and foremost, I would much rather be a "working" artist as opposed to a "hot" one. The shelf life of those "hot" guys isn't very long. Unless you have a mainstream style, someone that is so stylized seems to have their "hot" project/time and then they fade away.
    I also don't agree with the "disposable" attitude that many companies take towards the creators and their characters.

    Anyway, over the last few years, I went back to the older comics I was into as a kid and realized that (in my opinion) the artists that I liked during the late 70's and 80's were actually better illustrators than the stuff I was reading throughout the 90's.
    Mind you, there is still some great stuff in the 90's books, but the older stuff seemed more consistent. The quality was there, it really wasn't about flashy styles, it seemed to be more about have a good complete package... good story and art. The characters were unique and recognizable, not "stylized" to the point of needing the costumes to tell them apart.


    What makes me buy a comic anymore?

    Nostalgia, creators, characters. Not covers, Wizard articles or even the art!

    I read the SW comics, and no matter whether or not I agree with GL's work on the prequels, I will always read the comics to get a SW "buzz".
    I'm reading the new G.I. Joe and Transformers comics. The G.I.Joe series seems to be a lot better, I think the Transformers guys are too busy trying to get lots of books out... they should follow the old adage... quality over quantity.
    I'm also reading Robotech.

    I'm reading Batman because Jim Lee is drawing it... surprisingl
  10. Duke-Dogwalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2002
    star 4
    Whoa! Some post!!

    I used to get the marvel books too ? around the mid to late eighties? then as the nineties came along, I just got bored of them. I dunno, I was having to grow up pretty fast at the time, maybe comics seemed like something that I didn?t need any more? But still, looking back, and having bought a few trade paperbacks from the mid nineties since then, I think, like you Punisher, I prefer the older style. Though I did love Jim Lee when he came along, he did seem to spark a change in the way super hero comics were drawn from then on in? I stopped buying the x-men at the same time Chris Claremont left, 3 issues into the new series, but from what I can see now, it looks like after Jim Lee left the x-men, all they tried to do for some time was to find artists who could replicate his style, albeit not quite to the same effect.

    Then with the digital leap, the colour took a massive step forward and into an all-new, bright, polished world. Everything became dazzlingly colourful, and looked amazing, but something inside still pined for the old days? Like this page from a John Buscema drawn issue of Wolverine from ?89?

    [image=http://dukdog.freeservers.com/wolv.jpg]

    Nothing spectacular, flat, unrealistic colour? but somehow it still does it for me ? it has character, and Buscema was one of the greats?

    I didn't get to study art on the level of many of the kids that were there. I didn't get to do nude life studies, we didn't go on trips to draw things, we sat in class and did still lifes and if we did a bit of life drawing, it was maybe over a few weeks in the course of a 4 year art program. My life drawing ability came from reading those "How to draw" books.


    I know how you feel ? education in my country is pretty rubbish across the board. I first realised this when we had foreign students coming in at various stages over the years ? they may have not had much English at first, but they used to laugh at the maths we doing, as it was so simple. The same went for art ? I can?t think of having had one lesson in all my years at school, where the teacher spoke of composition, perspective, or anything like that? We were occasionally sat down in front of a pile of miscellaneous objects and told to draw, but we were given a pencil, some paper, and that?s it. No instruction. In later years, my teacher even tried to prevent me from drawing, insisting I spend my time doing screen-printing and collage... She couldn?t draw at all herself, and seemed to resent anyone else doing it.

    I learned to draw by first attending the junior class at the (sadly no longer existent, I believe) London Cartoon Centre, on Saturday mornings. Then after that, I was largely self taught.

    I did paid (not much compared to what WE SHOULD have considering our experience and ability), I could have made more if I would have stayed in restaurants and pursued management.

    Yep, you probably could have. Unfortunately, the money you get paid in this world has nothing to do with talent or ability, but rather more to do with how much money you can make for whoever is paying you. If you?re handling large slices of cake, then there?ll be a lot of crumbs left over to fall into your pocket. Simple as.

    You say comic books are something of a touchy subject for you? Maybe that?s coz of this seeming lack of recognition for all your hard work? My only answer to that is - draw for yourself, not anyone else. If you can find a way of making money by doing what you love best, then that?s great, but don?t count on it, and don?t feel like a failure if you don?t manage to. Coz that?s how I suspect the best artists feel anyway ? they?d be drawing anyway, not because of success or money, but because they love it, and it?s what they want to do.

    The most money I?ve ever made has been for some quite boring stuff ? and the things that have satisfied me the most have earned me nothing at all? I think that if I had ever wanted to make any real money, I?d have had a go at being a city trader!!


    I'm hoping that these simple pic
  11. TheBalinakaBaroness Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 14, 2002
    star 4
    Thanks you guys, for all the great insight and tons of information. I'm new to this big comics world, and am just learning all the history and well, stuff. This is all really helpful.

    Hey Duke - Really great Spiderman! Dare I say: "Amazing!" ;)

    Punisher - that's quite a road you've been on! I have the utmost respect for the self-educated artist. (You too, Duke!) It takes a lot of dedication and hard work to go it on your own. In the end, i think you end up more experienced and better educated than the joe shmoe who merely "coasted" through college/art school. Just for the record - I was no joe shmoe in college. I worked my tail off. I was nowhere near the best artist or most talented there, but I worked hard, and it paid off.

    The point of the "How to draw" books isn't for the student to copy the style in the way they are done, it's for the student to learn the basics of drawing and what is required of them. Good fundamentals of perspective, anatomy, expression, posing, color theory, etc. transcend style. -

    Well said! There are a lot of helpful books out there. The ones I don't like are the books that just give you some characters and tell you to draw some circles and in three easy steps - you've mastered the comic book hero! ;) I think it's a little misleading.

    "You'll grow out of it" - grrrr. I ran into that attitude a little while I was in school. I was never a comic fan growing up, I think I can vaguely recall reading a "Richie Rich" comic my friend has when I was 8 or so. :) - I was much more interested in Disney and Animation. Anyway, in college, the professors always bagged on any work that was too "comic"-ish or too "animated"-looking. I was a little annoyed at first, since I fell into the latter category. But I kept exploring and experimenting to come up with my own style. I'm glad they pushed me to try other things. And now after trying other things, I can comfortably come back to more animated or comic book type characters, using my own voice, and also infusing the various influences and experiences I've had.

    I'm hoping that these simple pictures will be the start of my rekindled interest in art
    I hope so too! Good luck Punisher!

    Ahhh High School Art Teachers. (I'm assuming that's what you were talking about, Duke?) I think it's probably a rare thing indeed to get a really good Art Teacher in a public school. I'd rate mine as average. I didn't take too many art classes pre-University since I was tracked academically (you know, busy taking useless things like Calculus! ugh!), so I didn't really have any knowledge of perspective, composition, color theory and the like - I don't think I'd ever done any figure drawing. I doubt I would've made it into an Art School. Not as if I had the money anyway. Luckily I went to a Liberal Arts school and found a great Illustration program there. Anyway, I share that simply because if anyone is reading who feels discouraged by their High School Art Program, I don't think it's the end of the world. There are other solutions and other paths to take if you keep the end goal in sight.

    Any more comic fans out there? What do you like? What makes you excited when flipping through those floppy little books? ;)

    ~Baroness

  12. Duke-Dogwalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2002
    star 4
    those floppy little books?
    [face_laugh]


    Hey Duke - Really great Spiderman! Dare I say: "Amazing!"

    :)

    Spins a web, any size... catches criminals just like flies... look ooooouuuuuut, here comes the spiderman!

    [face_blush]

    I think it's probably a rare thing indeed to get a really good Art Teacher in a public school. I'd rate mine as average.

    I suppose it's just the luck of the draw... my first art teacher in secondary (high) school was really good. She told me i had talent, and just to get on with it - she encouraged me to draw all the time, adding bits of help and advice along the way... then the next year i was landed with the one i described earlier, and for some reason seemed to have her for almost the rest of my time at school. Not fair. I suppose I aught to add that i was a pretty poor student though... i was kinda difficult to manage when i was younger - didn't respond too well to authority! A result, perhaps, of being brought up in sort of a commune type atmosphere (faaaaar out man). I was fine if a teacher treated me as an equal and explained things, but if they issued orders then i sort of gave 'em the finger...

    So anyway, that's in defense of the poor lady i described... she wasn't very good - but maybe neither was I!

    It actually took me some time to develop a style of my own with my drawing... when i was younger, some of my friends had the most fantastic styles - really reconizable - but my stuff always tended to look like my best representation of reality. It took me ages to be able to draw stuff from my imagination that i was truly happy with.

    Oh, I was gonna ask in my last post, but i got tired and forgot coz it was so long! Bar - this interest you have in storytelling... Have you ever done any story type stuff yourself? I had a go at doing a comic book earlier this year - and it was really hard! I found doing the speach the most difficult bit, as you only have so much space to fit in everything you want... It's alomost like having to use shorthand, to try and convey what you want people to say. There's not enough space for realistic conversations, so you just have to refine it down to the essentials, while still somehow retaining some sort of credibility...

    I found it much harder than writing just text based stories. I've yet to have a go at some kind of play or scrpt... but there's always time.

    Anyone else here written/drawn any comic books?

  13. TheBalinakaBaroness Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 14, 2002
    star 4
    From a few posts ago:

    The work schedule is tough, many of the articles I've read talked about long hours and drawing all the time all day, everyday, to meet the publishing schedule. No time off for holidays, weekends or vacations, if they are doing well. The deadline is everything.

    I just felt like saying Amen to that. It's about 4:00am (Pacific time for me) and I just finished and faxed off some sketches which had to be to New York first thing this morning. And guess what - I love it! Oh boy this is the life for me. ;)

    she wasn't very good - but maybe neither was I!
    aw Duke - you rebel rouser you! ;) I was the most quiet and amenable of students. Yep. I was boring. ;)

    Bar - this interest you have in storytelling... Have you ever done any story type stuff yourself?

    I've done a little but never anything solely text-based. My main interest is children's books. I've written a few of those (not that anything has happened with any of them). I tried this one experiment - told a story with basically no text at all, and I had a good time doing that. I've never tried a real traditional comic book though. I've decided that one of the ideas I worked up as a children's book would be much cooler as a comic book series. Right now I'm still trying to map out the plot (over six issues), figure out who all the characters are, and all that. I have a few sequences in my head - but I haven't thought much about dialog. We'll see how it goes. Scary! It's a big adventure. :)

    But this whole storytelling thing - oh it's so much fun! All the research, planning, thinking up ideas is great - I get lost in it. And I haven't really even started doing concept art. Unfortunately the real world calls (hence the reason I was scrambling to send off sketches in the middle of the night!) Doesn't look I'll be able to spend as much time working on it as I like, but that's ok - it allows time for ideas to simmer.


    Anyone else here written/drawn any comic books?

    ditto that! please share if you have

    ~Bar
  14. Duke-Dogwalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2002
    star 4
    GO TO BED!!!

    I don't know... how do you expect to be up bright eyed and bushy tailed, ready for more work in the morning, huh? ;)

    aw Duke - you rebel rouser you! I was the most quiet and amenable of students. Yep. I was boring.

    Well I'm making up for it now. All my friends think i'm really quiet and boring, someone who'd rather stay in and draw pictures than come out partying! (Which is the only thing you should be up for at this time of night!) But they still like me, what nice friends eh? :)

    So Bar, will the big world (us) ever get to see any of these stories of yours when they're done?


  15. TheBalinakaBaroness Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 14, 2002
    star 4
    So Bar, will the big world (us) ever get to see any of these stories of yours when they're done?

    The minute something is actually truly and really published, I'll be sure to let ya know! Gonna be a looooong time though. ;)

    OK. Off to bed with me! Have to be well-rested to start drawing Sleepy Sheep tomorrow (today!). ;)


  16. Punisher Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 1998
    star 4
    Well, I guess this has turned into our own little art/comic discussion...
    I'm waiting for some others to jump in as well... I think my first post may have scared people off.

    Let me say... GOOD! YOU should be scared! (I'm jus' kidding!) :D
    _____________________________________________

    Well, let me say I got into Jim Lee's artwork because of his anatomy and the level of detail in the work, as well as I liked the books he was working on.
    Some artists don't take the time to add details or they just draw generic guns, he did the research (I'm sure the writer had some say as well) and when he drew a M16/M203 combo, it looked like the real thing.
    His people, even though they are classic superheroes stereotypes, have the correct structure, proportion, and flexibility.
    I just wished he had more variety when he draws people's faces. All of his characters have same faces essentially.
    Of the "hot" 90's artists, I never really liked Todd McFarlane or Rob Liefeld as much, I bought the stuff they worked on, but as a whole, I think Jim Lee suceeded in what I was looking for in my comic art.
    (Let me state that even though I like Jim Lee's Punisher art, Mike Zeck's Punisher has more attitude!)

    On that note, good fantasy (art, stories, movies, etc.) that have a basis in the real world will always appeal to me. Even if something is made up out of thin air, it should still look like it could exist.
    If the SW films didn't look "real", I doubt they would have been as popular. I think the reason the prequels have retained "hardcore" fans is due to the look of them, even if people didn't care for the characters or elements of the storylines.
    I think a high level of detail is making the Lord of the Rings films popular. Even if you can't get the story or the characters, they "look" good and realistic.
    _____________________________________________

    Duke
    Funny, it was the computer coloring revolution that got me to buy my first Mac in '97, even though I was working as a cook in a restaurant and never owned a computer before and never really knew anything about Photoshop. I figured if I couldn't draw comics, I'd color them.
    I think I was lucky, I bought my first scanner with Photoshop 3.0 (full version) for $600, anyone wanting to get into computer coloring now would have to spend that much just on Photoshop!

    Sometimes that flat color looks better than the tons of gradations and layers of color, highlights & effects that people bury the art with today. I couldn't look at the Fantastic Four anymore because the colorists/separators made everything look look like plastic, costumes, people, everything!

    I won't get into my art teacher too much. She had her "favorites", I wasn't one of them. Most of the kids wanted their credit so they could graduate, they didn't care about art or drawing.
    I never won many art contests, but when I did, it usually meant it had something to do with my drawing people. She didn't deal with that much and her "pets" didn't have the knack for it like I did. They also weren't drawing comic characters all the time, which esentially are nude figures.
    She was also big into doing construction paper projects, and collages... high school art classes and we were sitting around making paper witches and snowmen!! And she wondered why I was drawing superheroes and vigilantes... at least I was DRAWING somthing!
    The American educational system at work! 8-}

    Personally, I don't think most high school art teachers are that good because they haven't had experience in the art field. My ex-co-worker talked about how good his teacher was, but his teacher was a working artist, there's a difference between drawing for fun, drawing to teach it, and having to get paid for it.
    For example,in my old job, having lots of art history knowledge wouldn't help at all. I definately would tell kids about the history, but the history won't mean a thing if they want to draw and aren't doing it or the history lesson wasn't applied to a "hands on" art lesson.
    We only got ar
  17. Duke-Dogwalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2002
    star 4
    I got into Jim Lee's artwork because of his anatomy and the level of detail in the work

    Yeah, that's what i liked about jim lee too...

    and when he drew a M16/M203 combo, it looked like the real thing.

    yep, he drew good guns, but i prefered his invented ray guns from the x-men more, coz they were his own creativity coming out... Guns and helicopters - he did those better than anyone else! I've got the x-men from about 200 to 290, and i don't think there was ever any better drawin than those around 275 that Jim lee did... here's a page from 275 - nothing standout on it's own, but v. high quality throughout, telling the story perfectly.

    [image=http://dukdog.freeservers.com/jlee.jpg]

    Though come to think of it - you're right, he did tend to make all the faces look the same - one male and one female... i never minded at the time though!

    you've got a lot to say punisher, and i've found it all interesting, so please, nobody else get scared! After all, he's not the real punisher:

    I don't drink, smoke, steal or kill people

    see? No killing. He won't even steal you... ;)

    Anyone else got anything to say about comics?
  18. TheBalinakaBaroness Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 14, 2002
    star 4
    Ok, so I know I don't qualify as "anyone else" but I'm gonna reply anyway!

    Duke - Thanks for posting that Jim Lee page - I haven't seen much of his work yet. On the list of things to do. ;)

    All really great book suggestions, Punisher. I've read all of them except the second Scott McCloud book. Well, ok, maybe I've only skimmed Graphic Storytelling, but I only just got it last week. ;) I really liked the DC book. I also have the DC Guide to Pencilling, but I found the Guide to Writing a lot more helpful. I lucked out, and my local library had a couple of Will Eisner Graphic Novels. Pretty great stuff.

    <<I think most artists work at night so that they can be alone or without constant distraction.>>

    I think you're on to something. Even when I worked full-time, I never got started until after lunch, and usually wasn't really productive until after 4:00 when the office quieted down. Luckily we had flexible schedules and I could come in late and stay late - a rare place that understood the crazy creative type!

    Speaking of being productive, guess I should really get back to work. ;)
    ~Baroness

    EDIT: Oh yeah, I forgot - I wanted to tell you guys this, cause I thought it was pretty funny.

    From a couple posts back:the professors always bagged on any work that was too "comic"-ish or too "animated"-looking.

    So I was talking to my Rep the other day, who's been showing my books around, and I asked him how it's been going - he said he gets positive responses but so far no one is biting. He did say the only criticism he ever gets is that my style is a little "too animated-looking." :D


  19. Punisher Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 1998
    star 4
    I'm giving up on others getting involved... besides, I'm having fun chatting about this stuff.

    The best way to get into any comic artist's work is to get some trade paperbacks (they reprint storylines from a series), it's cheaper that way...

    Some of Jim Lee's TPBs I have are:
    X-Men: Extinction Agenda (Lots of other "hot" 90's artists involved in that one. )
    The Punisher: An Eye for an Eye
    Punisher/Wolverine: African Saga
    But he has more than those...

    Check out some of the '60/'70's comic artists.. Jack Kirby (Fantastic Four), John Romita (Spider-Man), Steve Ditko (Spider-Man), Wally Wood (Daredevil) & John Buscema (Conan).
    The Marvel Comics Essential collections are good for them.
    Dark Horse comics is reprinting the Marvel line of '70/'80's SW comics, those have great artists as well. Al Williamson & Carlos Garzon, Bob McLeod & Tom Palmer, are some of my favs from the old SW books.


    Well, I know Comics & Sequential art was a textbook at School of Visual arts... don't know if it still is, but it used to be.
    I've got the D.C. Guide to Pencilling as well, I'm not usually into Klaus Janson's work, but that's a great book.

    I've got the Will Eisner:A Contract with God GN, unfortunately, I haven't bought any of his others, since I can't afford to buy many GN's, currently.

    I like staying up, but I realized that quiet and no one bothering me was a benefit, especially if I'm drawing.

    Concerning your EDIT. Don't publishers realize that children respond to that kind of style?

    The only other thing you could do is really open pencil drawings and then watercolor them.
    I don't think I've seen many kids books that weren't cartoony/animated looking or watercolor.. then again, I don't have kids and I haven't been a kid for awhile (well, physically) so I don't know. I mean, what else is there?
    Pastels & charcoal in a modern art style?





  20. Duke-Dogwalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2002
    star 4
    X-Men: Extinction Agenda


    Great Jim Lee stuff there... Here's a scan, just for you Bar!

    [image=http://dukdog.freeservers.com/ex1.jpg]


    is that my style is a little "too animated-looking."

    I hate the "too-anything" type of critisism... gets on my nerves! I did attend art school briefly in my younger days (walked out before long - i was a tempremental pup back then!) But I do remember one of the crazy things one of the tutors said to me.

    he said: "It looks too drawn."

    What?!? It is a drawing.... what were you expecting, a souffle?

    Crazy.




    edit: I don't have kids and I haven't been a kid for awhile

    LOL!


    Well, I think I'm gonna continue to be a kid for some time... I reckon i might grow up when i'm about 40...
  21. Punisher Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 1998
    star 4
    Well, mentally, I'm probably 12 or 13... I'm screwed when I start liking girls and stuff. [face_laugh]
    Once the hormones kick in, you get all Anakin, next thing you know you're married, having kids and then somebody's stuffin''ya in a cryogenic freezer. ;)

    40?
    Crap! I've got 10 years 4 months and 20 days to go!

    Thanks for the pic, if that doesn't entice her... there's NO HOPE! ;)
    If you really want to go cheap.. Jim Lee is currently drawing Batman, you may have a hard time finding them on the newsstands though.
  22. Duke-Dogwalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2002
    star 4
    Well, mentally, I'm probably 12 or 13... I'm screwed when I start liking girls and stuff.

    girls? Ugh, Icky. We hate slimy girls ;)

    did anyone here ever read Calvin and Hobbes? I love that. Down with slimy girls, and tigers are the greatest!!

    Once the hormones kick in, you get all Anakin,

    we're all gonna start wildy over-acting huh? 8-} Naah, it wasn't his fault he made his film debut in starwars - where acting is hardly the prime concern!


    So what DID Jim lee get up to in the last ten years then?

  23. LittleGreenMaster Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2002
    star 4
    Hello Star Wars Fan Art people :D
    I just read this whole thread, Very Interesting, You guys are great trying to help people out :) So I thought I'd share some of my experience with both Art School & College. I went to the School of Visual Arts in NYC & Now go to a Community college in NJ

    SVA had an Amazing Atmosphere, Really Great place to learn, Most of the professors are Great & You Learn A Lot ;)

    I would have kept going to SVA because IT WAS GREAT!! It had only one drawback, Aside from the commute every morning :p, It cost A LOT!! As I said I commuted every morning so I didn't have to pay for a dorm. If I had it would have been like $24,000, For me it was $12,500, Not counting Art supplies, Books & Commuting!! :eek: So after 2 1/2 Wonderful years my family couldn't afford SVA anymore & I had to go to a community college :(

    So I go to this community college now and I changed my major to Graphic Design from Fine Arts. I'm not so sure changing my major was a Good decision [face_plain] So anyway, The college is OK, They have a pretty Good Art/Graphics department. I've had about Half Good/Half Bad teachers there. Some are Encouraging, Others too Critical. Then again SVA had a few Critical professors too, But I still liked them better [face_blush]

    Someone mentioned something earlier about Not having Good electives at Art school, or It's not as well rounded as college.
    I disagree, SVA offered a pretty Good amount of non Visual art classes. ;)
    My 1st year at SVA was called a Foundation year and Everyone (Every Single Major) had to take a 6 hour Drawing class (Awesome!), 6 hour Painting class(Really Tough!), Photography class/or Sculpture, 3 hour English Literature, 3 hour Media communications, & a World Art History class. :eek: That's just the 1st semester! 2nd you take the same except you take Writing instead of Lit, Scupture instead of Photo, and Another Art History class.
    To give you youngin's an idea how hard it is My painting teacher wanted a painting finished for Homework done Every week! And every week class would start with a Critique of the homework paintings. Now each class is once a week but Man!! You need the Extra time to finish everything, Especially when your Drawing teacher gives you Homework which entails You going to The Museum of Modern Art to draw sketches of Various Masterpieces!! :p And They do! Seriously though, It's All worth it if you can afford it or get decent financial aid :D A few of my professors at SVA would take us to their house to show us there work & stuff. And there are Lots of "connections" to be made at an Art school, I Highly recommend Art school :D
    Like I said my college is OK, But it's just not the same as Art school. Really wish I could have kept going to SVA [face_plain]
    So if you think you can handle it, Go to an Art school :D (IMHO)

    Portfolios as stated earlier are Huge if you are to be a Successful artist/student ;)
    That's All an Art school looks at, Trust me :)

    And Finally a Question for those Wiser than me [face_blush] :p
    Any of you guys know Generally how much it costs to get Slides done of Artwork ?[face_plain] (Canvases, Watercolor papers, etc) Does size come into the equation?

    Also, Same Question about making up Prints of Artwork, How much ?[face_plain]

    Thanks for any help :)

    P.S. I like this thread! I Like to Write long posts too [face_blush] I don't Know of any Comic book influences or any others for that matter on my art :p

    I mostly do Oil, Watercolors, Pen & Ink, & Pencil drawings of Nudes(Younglings!! Study Nudes & Anatomy!! Very Important!), Landscapes, Weirdo Surreal Abstract "Landscapes", Cartoon characters, And of course Star Wars pictures :D I have a couple up at the TFN Fan Art museum :) One is an Oil painting of the Bespin Duel, The other is a pencil drawing of Yoda with his Lightsaber drawn [face_mischief]
    I Love comics, But I'm not really into Superhero Comics, Although I do Love some of the Master's work you guys have mentioned [face_mischief]
    I read Star Wars comics But don't care much for most of the Artist's Styles. My Favoritely drawn (Painted actually, Every panel, Was a Painting :D) Was in a SW Tales
  24. TheBalinakaBaroness Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 14, 2002
    star 4
    <<Don't publishers realize that children respond to that kind of style? >>

    :) Exactly! Actually, if I look at the situation from an unbiased viewpoint, I can see where they're coming from. The "safe" successful children's books tend to be softer, have a more quiet charm. Does that make any sense? The louder "animated" style is reserved for mass market and licensed titles. I kind of fall in the middle and I think they aren't sure what to do with me. Beyond the fact that I'm an unknown. They don't like letting unknowns both write and illustrate their first book. They (whoever "they" are) usually team a first-time illustrator up with an all-ready successful author. Anyway, the book I'm working on right now is more of the mass market variety, so my style is working pretty well for it - but it's definitely not Caldecott material. ;) This is all falling on deaf ears, ain't it? ;)

    Back to comics! :D

    Duke - "It looks too drawn." - That's classic! lol...

    Thanks for the Jim Lee/X-Men scan. Cool stuff!

    Hey LittleGreenMaster - Welcome to the party!

    SVA sounds pretty intense. That's cool you at least got to go for two years. My college experience was similar, maybe not quite as crazy, yet even with a full load every semester, I still took 5 years to finish.

    <<Generally how much it costs to get Slides done of Artwork>>
    Oh wow. I haven't had slides shot for years. There was a place on campus where they did it for like a dollar each. I'd check out at your school first before checking out other places. Usually there's a graphics services dept.

    I don't know what they tell you in school these days, but if I were an Art Director I would be bugged to look at slides. So tiny, and such a pain. If there was a way to get Iris prints, or something comparable, so much better. But then again, that's lots more money. ;) I don't even have a clue how much. Haven't had to do any of that for years. Back in school Iris prints were $20 or so, I'm sure less now. (I graduated in '95) Plus money for the slide, and to scan the slide. Oi.... All my work is digital these days, so I just take the file to Kinko's if I want a nice laser print. $1.25!

    <<I read Star Wars comics But don't care much for most of the Artist's Styles.>>
    I've seen some of the Star Wars Tales. The ones that I really like are the crazier ones. I loved the Lando's Commandoes - Carlos Meglia I think did that. And there was one called Princess Leia's Diaries, I think. Loved that one too.

    I'm not a big fan of the muscley super hero comics - though I can appreciate the art. I'm interested in making an all-ages comics - probably the 7-12 type age group, and on up. Some great books I've been looking at: Akiko, HeroBear, and Bone. I also found some old Uncle Scrooge comics by Carl Barks. I keep meaning to go find some Tin Tin books, but keep forgetting. (Calvin and Hobbes - yep, excellent stuff, Duke!)

    Actually, what I really wish I could get my hands on are some of the old vintage Buck Rogers comics. (I love cheesy Vintage stuff!) This is the best I've been able to find so far:
    Buck Rogers

    Can anyone tell me what's supposed to be in their little backpacks? ;)

    ~Bar
  25. LittleGreenMaster Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2002
    star 4
    Thanks for the Welcome Baroness :D
    The Slides Question has to do with some Exhibitions I'd like to Enter my artwork in ;) Some Competitions only except slides [face_plain]
    BTW I have A Lot of my Fine Art on the computer as well, But some of the photos aren't Good enough for prints unfortunately.
    I was going to mention the Comic Bone, It has a very simple style, But it has So much Charm & Atmosphere :D It's one of my favorites, But I haven't read it in a while
    Thanks for your info :) And you're right, I did get to go to SVA, It was A Lot of Fun :D
    I agree with you about SW Tales, They seem to have a Lot of Great people working on it, Very eclectic stories. :D It just bothers me when a person's "style" get's in the way of how a character is supposed to look. And I don't think the artist's capture the main SW Character's likenesses like Han, Luke, Leia, etc consistently enough.

    I definitely need to check out some more Comic art though & catch up on some Art history, Go to a gallery, You know :)
    Hey, You fellow artists ever get pissed when people differentiate between "low" art & "high" art ?[face_plain] Like some say Comic books are low art! Personally I think it's a Ridiculous distinction, Art is Art.
    Any thoughts ?[face_plain] :)
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