Lit The Official Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Hahaha, yes. Barv's death scene was hilarious. It was clearly Denning trying to write a Ganner but just failing horribly. The guy died like ten times and the narrative kept being like "Oh wait he's still alive even though his intestines are completely spilled out because he loves Allana so much!!!" Yeah, no. For a death scene to be epic it needs to be taken seriously. Ganner it ain't.

 

OH GOD SQUIBS AGAIN PLEASE NO.

 

Well, Denning is no Matt Stover.

 

So the entire Imperial election campaign occurs over the course of what, three days, tops? And Jag's plan to teach democratic values to the Imperial population involves engineering the vote so that there will only be one viable candidate, handpicked by him? It's like every plotline in this book is competing to be the dumbest.

 

Denning doesn't want to lose his favorite character to the Empire, she has to hang around the Jedi temple to be important. That necessitated this subplot, regardless of its stupidity.

 

Nah, it seems to me that FOTJ is the result of the writing staff seeing how many Debate and Switch tropes they could execute in nine books. For reference: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DebateAndSwitch

• Luke and Ben on an odyssey to find out what happened to turn Jacen evil? Nah, they're gonna get sidetracked and have the series about something completely different.
• Trying to decide what the Jedi Order's proper role in society should be, i.e., the dilemma that gives us the series title? None of the above, that's the answer! The Jedi up and separate themselves from society (more than they were already, anyway) in the middle of nowhere in Hapan space.
• Luke's replacement as Grand Master is unsatisfactory? Just kill the pretentious jerk, that'll fix everything!
• Kenth's killer is maybe feeling a little guilty over resolving a dispute among the GFFA's peacekeepers using wanton violence? Let her off scot-free, insist she did the right thing, and pile even more responsibility on her!
• An ex-Jedi is on trial for crimes she committed under the influence of another fallen Jedi, raising hard and realistic questions about how a court system should address matters of Jedi and Sith? Have the outcome decided by events completely outside the context of the trial, so that we don't have to answer moral questions!
• The GA Chief of State is making unpopular decisions and worse, she's inconveniencing the Jedi! Should we use proper channels to have her impeached? Proper channels? You're funny! We've got lightsabers and they don't, so let's just mount a coup!
• The government and the public are concerned that the Jedi might be...dangerous? Rubbish, we Jedi are perfectly harmless and if you make such insinuations again, I'll cut you open!
• Didn't Luke strike a rather conditional plea bargain in order to get the opportunity to return to Coruscant? Ah, the Jedi control the government, now so what does due process matter?
• Why exactly did Jacen fall again? Weren't we trying to figure that out? Eh, Vergere was evil, whole thing was inevitable, blah blah blah. Who cares? He's dead, anyway.
• We're dealing with an eldritch monstrosity that's as old as time itself and is incomparably powerful. What does it want? Easy - it wants to rule the galaxy, just like every other Star Wars villain!
• Vestara's been struggling with her allegiances for five books already, torn between her heritage and the one person who still cares about her. In the process, she's made good choices and bad ones. How to resolve this intricate character arc? Have her abandoned by the Jedi, caught by her former compatriots and forced to implicate herself in an attack on the Solos, thus leading the Jedi to distrust her and putting her on the lam! God forbid a character arc revolve around, well character!
• A formerly authoritarian society is holding democratic elections for the first time ever? Well, how's this gonna turn out? The field is reduced to one candidate before the votes are even cast. It's like a guide on how to hold elections based on the Zimbabwean model.

As long as it is, this list still isn't all that comprehensive. The point, though, is that plots and arcs are consistently resolved in such a way as to rob them of all the satisfaction of, well, resolution. They always get handled in the crudest way possible, or else are mooted altogether by events from outside their normal context. It goes through the motions of storytelling without an actual story. It's just a mess.

 

Going through the motions of storytelling without an actual story describes this series perfectly.

 

One of the things that really irk me is the possible implication of the election- this is the Empire, and they're holding elections?! Aren't the Moffs or the military suppose to decide this?! Whereas the GA, which is sort of democratic (with a Senate and all that, and those Senators are elected, so its not exactly a democracy as more like a representative government or something like that, but close enough) has gone through, what, 20 Chiefs of State in the last 18 books? Including such people as a wannabe Vader, Daala, and an ancient abomination?

I doubt there's any deeper meaning, but really, the Empire gets to have an election, with Daala as a candidate somehow (I'd rather vote for Jar Jar), while in the end the Chief of State post somehow goes to last person standing? Can the GA bashing get any worse? ...wait, never mind, i know it can, they always outdo themselves in another book or two.

And sure, help the 8 year old keep her promise and go into a warzone. Its like everybody is already on bended knee catering to Allana's every whim. Well, she is the Solo's granddaughter but it doesn't justify the stupidity. Not to mention we're down another Jedi Knight. I know the young Jedi were mainly introduced just to go crazy but then they all get killed off anyway.

 

Man, Denning really loves repeating the stuff we already know from earlier in the book. Characters recite things that happened to them a hundred pages ago. They repeat to other characters what just happened to them in detail. We spend an entire chapter on Raynar learning Abeloth's history, then an entire chapter on Tekli repeating exactly the same things Raynar learned to the Jedi.

No wonder the book is so long.

 

The storytelling modus operandi seems to be to take very specific concepts or ideas that the authors want to see, then establish the conditions necessary to satisfy them, no matter if it is a terrible plot or it is illogical or it contradicts continuity. The Imperial election is purely to get Jag away from the Empire so Denning doesn't "lose" his favorite character. That's the entire reason this subplot exists. I honestly and truly believe the only reason that the Lost Tribe exists is solely to facilitate Ben having a Sith love interest. The only reason. That's exactly why John Jackson Miller does much more interesting stuff with the Lost Tribe than Fate of the Jedi even dreams of doing, because the authors don't actually care about the Lost Tribe except that it gives them Sith cannon fodder and it gives Ben a teenage love interest. There's no interesting Lost Tribe members apart from Vestara and her father -- the rest are expendable cardboard cutout antagonists.

The writers are fulfilling their agendas with the "plot." It truly is glorified fanfic.

 

I suspect there is better fanfic than FOTJ!

 

No doubt. It's glorified bad fanfic.

 

Personally I'd cut fanfic more slack than this!

 

The Force theology in this book is completely asinine.

And I'm not convinced that Denning sees a sufficient distinction between the Jedi and the Space Marines.

 

Denning does to Mortis what he already did to Vergere and takes a poop on the film saga in the process. What do you mean about the Jedi and Space Marines?

 

The Jedi command Space Marines, they use Space Marine equipment, they assault the Sith with Space Marines . . . on one hand, Denning clearly found a new toy, but the real point is that Denning doesn't see the Jedi as much different from the Space Marines: really elite, really generic commandos who do nothing but special ops missions in the context of galactic war.

 

What franchise are the Space Marines you're talking about from? I'm assuming Warhammer 40k. I'm not familiar with the franchise, but yeah, it seems all across the timeline many authors are interested in treating the Jedi as a branch of the military.

 

No, they're in Apocalypse. GA Space Marines.

 

Ah, no wonder they sound so un-Star Wars like.

 

I honestly think Denning should read Warrhammer 40k, it may help him write less depressing novels.

 

You know, Space Marines don't make any sense in Star Wars, even ignoring the thematic quibbles. What do you need a Marine Corps for when your Army units also depend on naval transport, conduct amphibious operations and everything? Seriously, what is the distinction between Marines and Army when everyone's in space?

 

That's generally not true. Most spaceship crews aren't trained in zero-G operations, let alone boarding procedures in such conditions. Even the Stormtrooper corps has a specific Zero-G Trooper (the armor is space-worthy and much more weaponized) for that purpose.

 

So instead you have an entire branch of the military that you use just for boarding actions? I haven't seen everything in the EU that touches upon the doctrine involved, but the stuff I have seen suggests that boarding enemy warships is generally considered unconventional at best and suicidal at worst. It just doesn't seem like the sort of thing you would keep thousands and thousands of specially trained soldiers for. I'll grant you the Spacetrooper example, but those never seemed all that common, and the only appearances of them I remember off the top of my head were in extremely unconventional situations, militarily speaking. Not saying I don't think they should be there, considering how many different kinds of stormtroopers we have, but they still stand out as odd.

 

It's been about a year since I read this and I am really enjoying your feedback Havac

My library e-mailed me today that they have a copy of Crucible relay for pick up...would love if you could bear to read another Denning book so soon. Your commentary might make it worth reading.

 

Oh, don't get me wrong -- I totally agree with you. Just saying the troops exist, though rare. I'd think of it less like current Marine to Navy (235K active + reserve to 428K active + reserve) and more like current SEAL team members to Navy.

Those Spacetroopers, for example,were -- as you noted -- hella-rare. But the point of most capital ship crews not being hugely trained in zero-G combat was relatively accurate; I'm assuming most pirate vessels were probably more trained than standing navies, due to, y'know, sheer intimidation.