Lit The Official Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

The only times I remember seeing Space troops was in Cargo of Doom, the battle of Coruscant in the micro series with Saesee Tinn and in one of the Thrawn trilogy books.

 

The trend doesn't really die down considering what Jag's up to in Crucible.

 

Save yourself the trouble, don't! It'll be fun seeing you tear it to pieces but don't read it. You'll save your sanity that way.

 

there seems to be an awful lot of thrashing going on in this thread aimed at denning. If this was Starwars.com there would be accounts frozen. I find it suprising that a mod (Havoc) would be this openly hostile to an author

 

In my mind there's a thin, but very important line between insulting an authors work and insulting the author. I can trash a book, and while I can certainly do it in a mean spirited way that insults the authors capabilities, I'm still only insulting the work. If I start specifically targeting the author, though, then I probably need to reassess my priorities.

 

Good thing it's not TOS, then.

The good thing about not being an official site is that you're free to state your opinion about a book in Lit. You're not restricted to simply fawning over everything that comes out and holding your tongue if you don't like it. I think we're all big kids here and can handle that kind of freedom of speech. Indeed, I think it's pretty preferable to have the freedom to say that you find a book dumb rather than live in fear of having your account "frozen" for speaking your mind.

 

I'm a really big fan of the way Denning reduces the metaphysical mental/spiritual-plane Force combat between an incredibly powerful Sith, an incredibly powerful Jedi, and an incredibly powerful Force being to three ghosts punching each other.

EDIT: And Denning retroactively rewrites the entire post-NJO narrative he himself created . . . again. He's like the George Lucas of the EU.

EDIT 2: Offhand mention of billions of deaths. Awesome.

EDIT 3: Why is ex-commando Kyle Katarn no doubt the most politically astute of a group of Jedi Masters that includes ex-senator and ambassador Cilghal?

EDIT 4: A wedding in a hangar? Really? Anyway, the verdict is now officially in: this book is horrendous.

 

fair enough.. I did not love apocalypse. It did not seem realistic that a few hundred jedi could take on thousands of sith. I was also unhappy at the lack of a complete ending. Nothing was really resolved. I also did not like Crucible. The characters were very shallow and static. I also do not like this retirement of the big three. Luke at least is still pretty young for a jedi and even a human in Star Wars years.

 

Speaking of which, what's the consensus on who had the bigger contribution against Abeloth, Luke or Krayt? I for one thought Krayt overshadowed Luke rather handily. They both tussled with Abeloth the conventional way("Force blasts" galore), but it was Krayt's draining technique that put them over the top. What's more, after the fight was over it was Krayt who was first on his feet.

I'm a fan of Krayt, but I have to admit I'm surprised to see him appear at the end of the novel and be depicted as strong if not even stronger than Luke.

 

I've got a question about this "Allana with a blaster" thing. Is giving a child a blaster portrayed as something terrible but necessary, and Allana takes it only reluctantly, or does Allana go all little miss badass and gleefully gun down everything in sight? If it's the latter, as I suspect, I think that tells me a lot about Denning.

 

"Allana dropped to a knee behind Bazel’s huge leg and shouldered the weapon. She opened fire, loosing bolts so rapidly they seemed to flow out in a steady stream. The closest Sith swung his lightsaber low to defend his ankle, brought it high to protect his head, then pivoted away and swept it low again to deflect a knee shot. The fourth bolt caught him in the ear, and Leia felt the Force shudder with the shock and confusion of a little girl who had just killed a man.

"Leia took a position to Allana’s left and started to send energy bolts flying back toward the Sith. She was not surprised that Allana and Bazel had rehearsed a few maneuvers, or even that someone -- no doubt Taryn Zel -- had taught her granddaughter to shoot so well. But that didn’t mean Allana was prepared for the guilt and fear and relief that came of killing a person at close range. Allana didn’t freeze. She just switched to the next Sith and put him down as quickly as the first. Leia felt a pang of sorrow in the Force -- but also determination, and even a little anger. Allana understood their situation. She knew what to do.

"Leia just wished she knew what to do. The Sith were slipping from the tunnel in two-person teams and working their way along the walls, trying to flank the little girl and her protectors before attacking. Running for cover would only trigger a charge, and trying to hole up aboard the Falcon would be suicide.

"An imperious Keshiri female emerged from the tunnel alone. Allana opened fire on her, but the lavender-skinned woman sent the bolts streaking back so accurately that Leia had to step in to help defend her granddaughter from her own fire. Even then, two bolts slipped past in two seconds, and Allana wisely stopped firing and rolled behind Bazel’s massive leg.

"Already well trained, she snatched a fresh power cell from the storage pouch on the Ramoan’s thigh holster. She ejected the old power cell, slipped the fresh one into place, then called, 'What now, Grandma?"

 

I don't know if I should be laughing or sighing.

 

It's sort of in-between. They're under attack, and grave, super-serious Allana sort of skips off to grab a blaster and start blowing holes in Sith heads. Han is vaguely horrified that it has to happen and Allana's being exposed to war so early, but accepts that it's inevitable. Allana is all serious and grown-up about it but it does get to her.

It's not completely awfully handled, but it's part of this urge to establish Allana as super mature and serious and all grown up more than Han thinks. It's doing this sort of "look at how MATURE and SERIOUS this story and character are" thing that comes off just one step short of BADASS. It's the same juvenile conception of what's GROWN-UP and GRITTY.

The Sith techniques of Krayt and Vestara both appear much more important in killing Abeloth. Luke and Ben just sort of hang around Force-pushing and grappling her ineffectively, whereas Krayt and Vestara do the real damage with lightning and drain. Luke's basically reduced to holding Abeloth in place for Krayt to kill her. This is another of those really bad ideas and messages.

 

The death of Barv is the worst part, and I'm not sure whether the explicitly described gore or the fact that Allana witnessed it is worse.

I can't really imagine Anakin in Episode I doing what Allana does, and she's younger than he was, IIRC.

 

But Allana HAS TO LOOK to honor Barv's sacrifice!

 

Is the message that Vestara did more to save the galaxy then those that condemn her at the drop of a hat

OR

That they Sith do stuff while the jedi are useless.

 

Uh, what?

 

I'm not sure, but I for one am more than willing to buy into either one of those, since they both make a lot of sense. Hell, I'll go with all of the above on this one; these days the Jedi are only skilled and efficient at demonizing and eliminating people that disagree with them morally or politically, not materially.

 

Nobody expects the Jedi inquisition.

 

"The Sith are a necessary evil."

I'm really disappointed that the book didn't resolve Daala at all. Where is she? Did she take the loyalty oath the law required? Did she get arrested for refusing? Does this mean she's somehow a private Imperial citizen now? Is Lecersen going to get away scot-free? Did Denning just forget that she existed? There's no resolution at all. It's pretty ridiculous.

 

Shouldn't have done it, Anakin! Now you can't balance the Force against Abeloth!

If only you'd holed up in a metaphorical space pyramid to stop a couple of kids from killing each other, Anakin, we'd never have had these problems!

 

Sooooo... is there anyone else who thinks that the GA booting the Jedi off Coruscant was pretty well justified? Not a very smart decision, mind, but the Jedi weren't exactly holding a torch for the planet here. First they ditch their temple and intentionally let the Sith take over, then they infiltrate the planet while believed to be criminals and start scaring the crap out of people with public assassinations, then when they screw up their attack on the temple the Sith just start trashing the place. The banishment seems pretty understandable to me considering that the GA had no damn idea what was going on except that millions are dead and the Jedi are standing on the smoking rubble.

It's like if in some bizarro version of the Dark Knight Rises Batman lets Bane take over the city intentionally as part of a crazy scheme to come back, and then expect us to still see him as a returning hero after his actions got tons of people killed.

Also, does anyone, anywhere have any idea what Denning was going for with Vestara's resolution? I mean, the writings on the wall that he intended her to be pure Sith. But then the face-heel turn is pretty much her being coerced and the Jedi turning their backs on her due to confirmation bias. I don't even know what to say to that, what the hell is going on?

 

If I was a member of the Alliance, I wouldn't want the Jedi near my center of government ever again after what they pulled.

 

It might just be me, but this book just does NOT feel like a happy ending! Daala still isn't dead, the Tribe (with its ever vague thousands) still ins't really defeated and who knows when Abeloth will pull herself together.

Not to mention that this series started with Luke being kicked off Coruscant,now the entire NJO has been kicked off Coruscant, as well as probably getting most of the blame for this whole mess. And I could care less about Dorvan who usually just went ahead with the orders of whoever was in charge. Sure the Jedi were leaving anyway, but still ,the injustice of it all. Nothing new after the NJO series, but still doesn't excuse it.

Hm, forget if I noticed that Luke did less in the final battle, there were so many other problems, I might not have noticed. But at's what they get for creating a monster without figuring out a way to kill her. Its not just Denning, most of the time it was either hack at Abeloth with a lightsaber or Force lightning... which meant Sith, as some lame contrived excuse for he Tribe, when really they're obviously just here as cannon fodder and for gore scenes. Worse it makes Luke look not quite powerful enough. The only somewhat original method of fighting Abeloth was when Luke tore Callista free, and even then he was using a technique in an unnatural way.

And still don't know why he couldn't have brought a few more Jedi Masters or even Jaina to the final battle, instead of Jaina having yet another losing battle against Flying Plot Device, er, Ship. At least I think that's what she was doing.

I remember a year when I read this that I couldn't believe the novel might possibly be invalidating the Chosen One prophecy by saying that Anakin failed at Mortis and that now Sith are required to maintain balance?' I thought Lucas had said once that Anakin fulfilled his destiny at Endor, and usually whatever the movie says goes. Such as Yoda never being on Dagobah before.

And then, at the very end ,with so much ignored or forgotten, they have Jaina's wedding, as if to say happy ending! If this wasn't all such a ludicrous chain of events, I would laugh instead of cry at the absurdity of it all. If Episode VII does wipeout post RotJ continuity, I'll be glad this will be gone... I hope. Never know when they'll throw out the good but keep the bad (I know Marvel has done that at least once).

EDIT- And, um which version of Dark Knight Rises were you watching? Since I don't remember Bruce's back being broken as part of his plan. Unless that was sarcasm, in which case never mind.