Discussion in 'Literature' started by Rogue_Follower, Jul 17, 2011.
This made my day, thank you very much!
So Luke is worried that Vestara is walking a thin line. Okay, so he sends her off to the ancient psychedelic volcanic caves with only two other very young Jedi?? So it's dangerous for Ves to be with 100 Jedi, Luke included. But those caves are just fine. Not that Luke knows ANYTHING about this world. Makes sense. Great judgment, Grand Master. Funny how each of Luke and Co's jaunts to Sith planets actually turn up something relevant. You'd think he was throwing a dart at a map the size of a galaxy and going where the dart lands. (Which is essentially what he's doing).
This book was full of all kinds of mess.
I do what I can.
They didn't expect Sithspawn would be in the caves. From the information they had, the Dream Singers were small beatles, not massive muated creatures. And the reasoning behind going to that world was sound, since it had some conection to Ship. Abeloth clearly thought they might make that connection as well, which is why she laid her trap there. And not all of their trips to Sith planets turned up anything. That is why he and the other Jedi returned to Coruscant, in order to do further research rather than search every Sith planet in the galaxy.
I think it will probably end up with Ves being in the newly formed Imperial Knights. Remember the Pool of Visions?
Yoda voice- Always in motion the future is. Then again, the current novels seem so set on pushing a set future that its getting kind of annoying/boring. From Betrayal where apparently Jacen could pick and choose futures based on his current action, in the end choosing to kill Nelani Dinn to avoid a future where he ends up killing Luke (something basically completely forgotten for the rest of LotF, much less FotJ) to the vision of Allana as the Jedi Queen. So on the one hand I don't expect Vestara to die, based on the vision and how much time they've invested into her and Ben... then again, they spent 20+ books leading up to Jacen saving the day at the end of the NJO, so I wouldn't be surprised if they did kill Vestara by the end of FotJ either. Or maybe she'll just run off.
And even if they weren't sure Abeloth or any Tribe members were there, it was a Sith planet with plenty of darkside energy, so you never know what will turn up. And yet they still end Vestara along with only Ben (who definitely has a conflict of interests by this point) and one young Jedi Knight. And then that Jedi Knight ends up dead (after it looked like she would become a recurring character).
That last choice really kind of ruins the Ben/Vestara thing that was going on, not that I was interested in the soap opera this book (Golden's portrayal of their romance is my least favorite), with Ben rushing to read her letters. Before she had been reluctantly working with Luke and Ben because she alone out of the Tribe recognized how truly dangerous Abeloth was. Then here she officially wants to become a Jedi, but still won't give up Kesh's location, even after she runs into her father and has a vague idea of what shape Kesh is in. With how Kesh was introduced in Omen, I was hoping Luke would finally get to visit there, but instead Vestara never reveals its location and the way things are shaping up, everything will conclude on Coruscant... unfortunately. I hated the earlier Luke/Tribe alliance earlier in the book because Luke had no choice but to agree to it since he was all alone and he did need help to take on Abeloth and the rest of the New Jedi Order was occupied/stuck on Coruscant, but I had almost hoped that after Vol here realized how huge a mistake he had made in thinking they could use Abeloth that the Tribe would be more willing to focus on Abeloth as a threat for once rather than the Jedi. But looks like the Tribe are out of the running as an independent faction now with Abeloth taking over.
Still sad over Vestara's choice, it just seems... lazy on her part. As a born Sith, she was more aggressive than either Luke or Ben, but what she did to Natua was just... ruthless. She did it partially out of love for Ben, but still, it wasn't like there wasn't any other choice. The book itself presented as either risk taking on the creature with Natua's help, or just sacrifice Natua to distract it from Ben. She couldn't even just kill Natua outright, she had to let the gases drive Natua mad so as to get the thing's full attention. It is sort of the same thing as when she blew up that tsil crystal on Nam Chorios, but at least there Luke and Ben knew about it, and Luke scolded her for it, whereas in this book she had said (perhaps too quickly) she wanted to be a Jedi, yet she reverts so quickly (with only one book left to go). I'm
And how old was the information they had? Luke had no idea what to expect at all. The planet itself was different than what he expected. He couldn't have sent a master along? He had to send three kids to the psychedelic caves on a completely Sith planet alone? If he didn't know there were any sithspawn, he should have known that if things went wrong, the kids would hallucinate things worse than any sithspawn.
In all fairness, Natua isn't a "kid". She's at least in her mid-20's as she was one of the Shelter apprentices hidden during the Yuuzhan Vong War. And given Ben's past experiences with the GAG, as Jacen's apprentice, his harrowing journeys with his father, and the fact that he is a full-fledged Jedi Knight at 16, Ben Skywalker is not your typical teenage Jedi.
I'm not saying you're wrong in advocating that Luke should've sent a Master, but you are blowing things out of proportion by painting Natua and Ben as something that they are not.
I've started doing ominous Latin chanting whenever Abeloth's around: Dies irae, dies illa...
Re: Vestara and Kesh, from what I've read, I doubt we'll have to worry about the Jedi going to Kesh any time soon.
Vestara: Oh? Oh.
I think the reason they dropped the idea of going to Kesh after Dromund Kass was because Gavar was separate from the Lost Tribe by that point. He had revealed as much to Vestara in the presence of Luke, Jaina, and Ben. And knowing that Abeloth is NOT working with the Tribe of Kesh seems, to me, a good enough reason to leave it be. By the end of this book, what is there left on Kesh but the incompetent Sith or "useless" non-Force sensitives? Kesh is no longer important unless the Lost Tribe retreats there during Apocalypse.
It was just one issue. And mid twenties is still young for a Jedi. Forget the Solo/Skywalker grade jumping. I just picked it out of the air. Luke displaying poor judgment. They only had masks to protect them. He trusted Vestara far far too much. In the other books he didn't give her an inch. With good right. The least Luke could have done is send in someone to make sure these young Jedi could get out alive. Luke had done NO re-con work so he had no idea how anything would go. And all that trust laid on Vestara's shoulders. It ain't her fault she faltered. It was her master's fault. Luke's fault.
I completley disagree. In the end it was Vesterra's choice not Luke's. Thus the blaim should rest on her shoulder's not Luke's. Could Luke have done better? Yes, he could have and he should have. He utlimately made a mistake, but Vestera made a choice.
Her choice is overshadowed by Luke's screw up. He owns it. Luke is her master. He is the entire order's grand master and founder. More can be expected than for him to send his brand new recently sith apprentice on her first mission into psychedelic caves with two other Jedi and a couple of flimsi masks. On a Sith planet at that which was having an unusual and unexpected gigantic Force Storm. And what was the reason she couldn't go into battle at Luke's side again? How is that actually more dangerous than any other plan?
Don't get me wrong Luke made a huge mistake. But ultimately I have always felt that the fault falls on the one who makes the choice. For example, I place most of the blaim on a criminal for his actions rather than his parents.
As for not bringing her it was because the dark side was so strong there, stronger than Luke had ever felt before.
He did not reveal anything of the sort. Vestara implies that Gavar's loyalties did not lie with the Lost Tribe nor did the rest of the "flotilla" (the main flotilla, not just the task force). And later she's certain that "if her father succumbed, [...] then the others did too". Vague whether she means only the task force or the entire tribe. Then Ben comments that "So now the Sith have gone from wanting to capture Abeloth to wanting to serve her,". Not the task force, but the Sith in general. Including her mother's death (a non-force sensitive who is viewed as low-life) what they know screams that something went very wrong on Kesh.
Actually, from the perspective of potential containment, Luke's choice is entirely the right one. After deciding to take Vestara to the planet at all he has three choices: to leave her with the ships; to take her into battle with the host; and to send her into the caves. If we assume that Vestara's potential to be influenced by the dark side is roughly the same in all three situations, and there's no real reason not too, then sending her into the caves minimizes the damage she could cause should she be influenced.
If he leaves her with the ships, all it takes is a little luck to overpower whomever else he leaves and she can snag a ship and blast the others and leave them all stranded. If he takes her along she can backstab them in battle at the worst possible point for maximum damage, jeopardizing the lives of a hundred Jedi. If he sends her into the caves, however, all she can do is harm the two people who were sent all, Ben and Natua. Ultimately, that's what basically happens.
Luke cannot control Vestara, he knew he was taking a risk with her but he had decided that was the only morally legitimate course of action. So, he was left with choices regarding how to minimize the impact of Vestara failing should the worst case scenario occur. He did this successfully.
Imagine if Vestara had gone with them, maybe she preemptively attacks Tola Annax the living bomb, killing them all.
I hear Carlist Rieekan makes an appearance? What does he do? he's getting old, so I hope is death features in the EU and doesn't just disappear like Bel Iblis
You forget, Grump, that when Vestara loudly accused him of being a traitor to the Lost Tribe, even Ben senses his obvious reaction through the Force. Ben, who is the most junior of the Jedi there (Vestara still being Sith at the time). If he sensed Gavar's reaction (and he did, as the scene is told from his POV) then you can bet your buns Jaina and Luke, senior Knight and Grand Master, sensed his reaction and got more out of it in context. I have no doubts Luke could sense through the Force that the reason Gavar got so angry is because Vestara was correct when she asked him, "Where does your loyalty lie, Father? Not with the Lost Tribe, I think!" Even Vestara was shocked to realize she was right.
And Ben saying "the Sith" as opposed to "this particular group of Sith" is arguing semantics, as Vestara told Luke on the same page that "He questioned my loyalties, so I questioned his. And I was right. He no longer identifies with the Lost Tribe." He no longer identifies with the Lost Tribe, and there's no wife or kids or home for him or his flotilla (also known as the threat at hand) that would draw him back to Kesh. They have no reason to go back to Kesh and they're obviously not at Kesh, because why would Abeloth and her gang openly stay on a planet full of enemies? Gavar was Taalon's right-hand man at Pydyr, so if everyone but the group with Abeloth were dead (which they would have to be, if Abeloth were to remain on Kesh), that would make Gavar the Grand Lord by proxy. And the Grand Lord wouldn't risk his life, Tribe, and Order by attacking a Jedi Master he knows could easily kill him without help.
Luke, being sixty-something and a Jedi Master, would probably have been able to come to the same conclusions I have and be able to argue the point better - if anyone were willing to question the Grand Master on it. Nobody did. So Luke either decided Kesh was no longer a threat - or realized the game that was being played, and decided to move on to the next step, which involved turning Coruscant into bait for both the Sith and Abeloth by removing the Jedi from the planet. Regardless, we know that Kesh is longer a threat, because the remaining Sith on Kesh DID take Luke's bait - even the Grand Lord comes to check out his new crib. I imagine the majority of the Sith were mobilized for Coruscant.
I'm half expecting Apocalypse to end with a rebellion led by the Keshri defeating the Tribe once and for all and they join the Senate as a former slave species. The set up is there, in the LTotS e-books, after all.
I actually hadn't even considered it, but that would actually rock my world. And Kesh.
Interesting theory, Sinre. It would fit neatly with the theme in FOTJ and solve a lot of problems! After all, the hugest problem in FOTJ is what the Jedi will do with the Lost Tribe after they've beaten them... I've been toying with Abeloth 'doing the cleaning' before the Jedi even got there (and that was partly confirmed) - but your idea would solve the rest.
could this be ended that simply? lure abeloth to a highly secure area full of ysalmiri, and then kill her while she is figuring out why her power is gone? Or is her knowledge of the galaxy so extensive that she would know about that?
it would be an awfully undramatic and unsatisfying ending to me.
Even though what she did to Natua was horribly wrong, you can't exepect a lifetime sith with zero jedi training to all of a sudden act like a jedi. it's not to late for her.
Maybe they should drag her to Zonama Sekot. Have the Vong rip her to pieces, and if not that, then surely Sekot itself could do the trick.
Re: Gavar's "betrayal"...
One must remember that if the Tribe is anything like most societies, preservation of the society is important. Most peoples consider themselves the best, or even the only, people. Vestara, therefore, as one of the few Sith not in Abeloth's thrall, would consider those who are traitors, considering that she's seen Abeloth's plans for the Sith, reflected in what she's done to the Jedi.
During the Kesh parade/masquerade scene, I had "Fithos Lusec Wecos Vinosec" from Final Fantasy VIII going through my head the whole time.
Or Admiral Ackbar. IIRC, he died offscreen?
I've been hoping for a Zonama Sekot visit for a long time. It hasn't even been mentioned since DNT. Wouldn't Sekot be a formidable weapon against Abeloth?
The only problematic aspect of this is that it HAS been done before, with the Yuuzhan Vong. But for that matter, why not bring the Vong back, since they can't be sensed through the Force?
I was thinking about the Vestara/Ben story this morning. Golden goes out of her way to say that Vestara had the "unique experience" of seeing Ben in the dark, his face lit by the red glow of a Sith blade. When Ben struck Vestara's face with the Force, he did so in anger. The text says so. It was a Dark Side act.
Ben is more fully involved in Vestara's life than any other character in the series and thus has more to lose. We know from Allies that Vestara wanted Ben to cross to the Dark Side, and while she has given up this idea by Ascension, I have a feeling Ben finding out about Natua could send him that direction. I don't think Ben would go all the way (too much happened with Jacen to keep him from ever going down that path), but given the clues Golden has seemed to give us, it's a possibility that Ben will be tempted by the Dark Side more than he ever has.