The Official Fate of the Jedi IV: Backlash Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

whateveritis12 : These Rancors are also 20-30 feet tall.

Are they really that big??? The one in RotJ didn't seem that large.

Even so though, only about 5 rancors were sent at a time from Luke's direction. And by allowing 4 others to go past him, it meant that many people who didn't have Force powers had to deal with them. And the Sith certainly didn't seem to have much trouble dealing with nearly two dozen rancors at once, while also handling almost two dozen Nightsisters. So it made Luke seem pretty weak. This is a guy who was able to topple those machines in an instant and land a crashing superstar destroyer safely in DE.


The Sith that got away from Luke was also compared favorably to Kyle and Kyp IIRC.

The point remains that Luke didn't defeat ONE Sith while new knight Ben and Jedi washout Dyon killed Three.

And they didn't get outsmarted by Vestara,

They were still outsmarted. Look at the way she put the comlink into the animal as well as Luke's blood. And while they were running all around Dathomir, Vestara was waiting for the Sith to arrive so she could give them all that information. Notice how she managed to work with the Nightsisters and put herself in a safe spot where the Skywalkers couldn't touch her for fear of offending the clans.

And the fact still remains that Luke Skywalker accomplished absolutely NOTHING in the entire book. He failed in so many ways. I was really VERY disappointed in Backlash in general and Luke's characterization and roles in particular.

 

I think the definition of hero differs greatly between you and I.

The sheer idea that Luke and Ben decided to conspire with each other to allow the murder of those men and women...........to teach them a lesson..........this is a truly frightening thought on many, many levels.....to me.

 

Man, it?s been a while since I commented here, but I really just wanted to say that this book would have been better if Luke didn?t do anything.

Backlash?s Dathomir adventure starts off with ?Hey dad, you can?t be here? ?Oh, on some crazy technicality I can be!? The book would have been infinitely better if the spaceport enforced the crazy technicality and Luke was forced to hang around on the Shadow and recuperate for most of the book. He could occasionally provide info to Ben and Dyon, and could keep an eye on Allana through the book without randomly bringing Zekk in (and there?d be a reason that he couldn?t directly interfere or be seen helping her ? he?s not allowed off his ship).

Something like this would have solved the problem of ?why is Luke being overpowered by redneck Nightsisters anyway?? while giving Ben time to shine as an independent character (ie. not Luke?s sidekick) in a way he hasn?t since Exile and Revelation. Maybe at the end of the book, Luke could grab a speeder bike and be the one who confronts that Sith Lord (or Ben could lead the Bright Sun clan to do it! That would be fun and a capstone of his leadership abilities), but you?d already have had a few glorious chapters of Ben doing something Jedi and cool without his dad cramping his style, which I think is a development that Ben badly needs at this point. As fun as the Great Skywalker Roadtrip is, this series needs them to be apart for more than the half book they got in Abyss (where Ben was obsessing about Luke?s condition anyway).

That said, I liked the book. I think I may be turning into a Daala fan, which is probably only possible because I haven?t read anything Bantam-era in years and don?t remember her crazy lady years and can ignore the little voice that goes "Han! Why are you helping her? She tortured you! A lot! Why are you so okay with her?!"

 

Actually, this is a really good point... the only way for Luke to get hardball on the Nightsistsers is... to is to get hardball on the Nightsisters...

There are two questions: could he have been even more hardball, and could he have negotiated an alternative to fighting? I'd answer "yes" to both...

But more hardball (i.e. more open badassery) means losing the moral high ground; and as to alternatives, Luke is a fighter-pilot/commando with mystic powers who fights dark Force-users. I don't think he's entirely equipped for that subtlety...

Or rather, I don't think he's willing to take that chance when there are the lives of people he's promised to defend involved...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

...ok, my memory of the fight scene isn't clear enough for me to weigh in on whether Luke and Ben held back a little bit or did their utmost to protect everyone, but still, I wasn't impressed by Luke's showing in this book, fighting-wise or leader-wise. Partially its to try and shift the focus to Ben, I know, but keeping Ben attached to his father at all times really doesn't help. I hate to say this, but I found Ben more interesting when he was on his own during LotF, and still falling somewhere between his father's and Jacen's influence. But since Fury he's basically been Luke's tagalong, except for that useless detective side-trip during Revelation (which led to nothing since the answer was handed to him at the end of the book).

What I did find annoying is how Luke couldn't take down that many rancors. Although was his lightsaber still shorted out? Though you'd think lightsabers would be more durable, or be easier to repair, even on Dathomir (sure, most of the world is low-tech, but modern tech like speeders has been filtering in for decades). Although breaking Luke's lightsaber is another way to cripple Luke, or at least slow him down. But anyway, Luke had a hard time with the rancor in RotJ as he had hidden his lightsaber before marching into Jabba's palace. With a lightsaber, you'd think he could just throw in and start hacking off rancor heads or arms. Unless we're worried about animal cruelty to Nightsister-enslaved rancors, but still....

And in response to that quote I made about why Daala doesn't just reactivate everyone's commission- if she did, then that means the Jedi would actually have to do something in this series! Since at that point it would be either disobey an order from the commander in chief (or did they give that position to someone else?) or then there would be actual insubordination charges, which might make more sense than the "dereliction of duty" charge they used to kick Luke off Coruscant. Instead, we're still stuck with the endless "NJO propose something reasonable, Daala ignores them", or as we saw in this book "Daala checks the polls, then stalls them". It was bad enough during the first three books, but Daala sends in a Mandalorian invasion of the Jedi Temple in broad daylight and still nothing happens! Heck, they move in portable turbolasers around the Temple now, if I remember right, which is why the Jedi can't fly anything out of there. Even during Caedus' reign it wasn't this bad- or at least, when things got this bad the Jedi fled quickly.

Han with command authority would be nice if he actually used it- instead he, what, puts on a GA uniform for a few scenes? And what GA soldier would listen to him? My impression after LotF was that probably a good deal of the younger generations blame the Rebellion for bringing down the Empire before the Vong arrived, or something like that. And none of that matters anyway, as most of the senior officers have been bought off already. I heard there was a reference to Gavin somewhere in the book, but its not like he does anything either.

And yeah, Vestara tricked Luke and Ben for most of the book. Mostly Luke was just waiting, keeping an eye on her, they didn't realize that she had already called the rest of the Sith and hidden her ship at the spaceport. If Artoo's findings and Allana's misadventure had tipped them off earlier, maybe it would've been worth it, but instead they arrive too late when the Sith arrive, and then the lead Sith got away. Its just a very poor showing compared to Abyss- where Luke just wakes up after spending a few weeks out of his body, sustained only by an IV drip, and then he takes out an entire Sith strike team, with Ben's help, led by Lady Rhea, and the only wound he takes is to intentionally mark Vestara. Its mainly to move the plot along (where they end up surrounded by a dozen old frigates, though I really wish Luke was in an X-wing at this point), but still disappointing. Its not a horrible story, just felt boring and pointless for the most part. This would barely be enough fo

 

i enjoyed the book. yes luke could have been a little more powerful, then he was portrayed, but he was greatly out of his element. I liked Ben immensely. My fav portryal of him ever.

These Rancors are also 20-30 feet tall. It'd be like Luke trying to take down a T-Rex with much tougher hide

this never would have been a problem if it wasn't for vader's apprentice in force unleashed taking down rancors pretty easily. They over powered that character , now it makes other force users look bad.

 

ChildOfWinds:

The Wook has the average adult rancors being 5-10 meters tall (in other words 15-30 feet). He's facing 5 of these things in the darkness of night when they are being controlled by the Nightsisters to take out the Sun clan. Also Luke gets saved by Vestara when the Nightsisters turn his trick with the rocks back on him and gets surrounded by a few of them plus rancors (though I don't remember it too well, he does get put in a position where he needed the help).

I don't know how effective Luke and Ben's lightsabers are against the rancors, but it's been proven that Vestara's using a more powerful crystal than either Luke or Ben (The Strike Team burned through the doors to get to Luke and Ben in Abyss much faster than either Skywalker expected), thus she's more effective against the rancors with the better cutting ability.

 

Vestara was using Ben's lightsaber.

 

crazythorn : The book would have been infinitely better if the spaceport enforced the crazy technicality and Luke was forced to hang around on the Shadow and recuperate for most of the book. He could occasionally provide info to Ben and Dyon,

I think that would have made a vast improvement to the book and to Luke's characterization. At least it wouldn't have made it seem as though Luke was weak, useless, and over-powered by the Nightsisters and duped by a teenage Sith. As you said, that would have given Ben a chance to shine on his own too. If Luke would have arrived later to help fight the Sith, so much the better. But I would have liked to see him DEFEAT the Sith he fought too.




Nobody145 ...ok, my memory of the fight scene isn't clear enough for me to weigh in on whether Luke and Ben held back a little bit or did their utmost to protect everyone,

Trust me... Luke and Ben weren't holding back, but Luke was depowered in this book. He was portrayed as far too weak, useless, and incompetent. He should have been able to accomplish a lot more and provide a lot more aid. Instead, Luke Skywalker, Jedi Grand Master, had to be RESCUED... AGAIN. (He and Ben needed to be rescued when they were foolish enough to fall into one of their traps early in the book.)

And you're right: Not only wasn't Luke impressive as a fighter/defender in Backlash, but he wasn't shown as wise, resourceful or as much of a leader either.


What I did find annoying is how Luke couldn't take down that many rancors.

EXACTLY!!! And didn't someone say Vader's apprentice in Force Unleashed was able to go through a ton of them? Luke's lightsaber WAS working fine at this time, so that can't be used as an excuse.

But I thought it was even worse that Luke was tricked by Vestara for almost the entire book.




whateveritis12 : Also Luke gets saved by Vestara when the Nightsisters turn his trick with the rocks back on him

Luke didn't use the rock trick until after he had already been hit with the rock avalanche. The rancors dug at the boulders on their way up, dislodging them and sending them down on Luke.

The point is, I don't feel that Luke should have been put into the position of needing to be rescued by a teenage Sith girl. Instead of helping others in this book, Luke needed to be rescued himself more than once. I found it to be very disappointing. It wouldn't have been so bad if Luke would have accomplished SOMETHING in this book, but he contributed absolutely nothing. I thought it was a very bad characterization of Luke Skywalker.

 

I liked Luke as less powerful. I HATED it in Abyss, when Luke was this all powerful demiGod of the force and nothing could touch him, he needs to loose power, or the stories will loose all their tension. He either needs to be taken down a notch in power, moved out of the action (though they tried this in Legacy and it doesn't really work), or killed, otherwise what will it matter what enemies we face when LUKE SKYWALKER GOD OF THE FORCE can just kick everyone's ass even after being drained near to death

 

I agree. Maybe this could be the price to defeat Abeloth he could loose some of his power, and have to sit out of most of the action. Though I doubt that will happen, people want more of the big three's stories to go into the future so that will happen, it might change, but I doubt it will be any time soon.

ps. I don't mind big three stories as a whole, but I really don't care about them as they get to be what 70, 80. let them have their final peace. A little Deltora reference for those so inclined.

 

In regards to the "Dathomiri Olympics" and the short race vs. the long race.

Are people REALLY upset that Luke Skywalker -- of all people there -- knew the difference between winning a sprint and winning a marathon? It was one of the few parts of that sequence of the book that was "vintage, awesome Luke" and in a non-showy way (or, as Lex would say, "show, not tell"). For Luke to have won the sprint -- and, really now, do you think he couldn't have won it had he so chosen? -- he'd have had to tapped into the Force and expended energy beyond his normal enhancements solely for the trivial reason of beating someone in a race. Y'know, exactly what he and Mara had been teaching Ben not to do. On top of which, he was going to win the race anyways until the Dathomiri did the same. On TOP of which, he won the long-race which requires a consistent, more longevity-based usage of the Force -- which generally indicatees more power and/or control.

I can see being upset over Luke going "dark side" with some actions -- but that performance was vintage Luke, and Obi-Wan would have been proud of it (see: TAS).

 

I whole hardedly agree with you. The book was a waste. I don't see really how it moved the plot along that much other than to show the moffs scheming, and the sith coming to get Vestara. The book should have been an ebook. All these other things like the mandalors attacking the temple, Daala stalling, and the crazy jedi, to me show that the authors don't show political intrigue very well, I feel as though the authors all lack in writing about force users period. IMO

 

I don't mind if Luke's way overpowered. And I don't mind if he's more like Obi in A New Hope. I just wish they could make up their mind about it - he shouldn't be overpowered, then "Obish", then overpowered, then Obish, then overpowered. How hard can it be to decide?

Another problem I had was how he stayed out of much of the fighting because he legally couldn't be on the hilltop. Fierfek, there are an entire clan's lives at stake, and he doesn't do his best to help because of a legal technicality? Who was gonna tell Daala, anyway? There were only Witches, Ben, and Vestara there.

 

AusStig : I liked Luke as less powerful. I HATED it in Abyss, when Luke was this all powerful demiGod of the force and nothing could touch him,

I didn't see Luke as a "demiGod of the force" in Abyss. He barely survived his fight with the Sith, after all.

But, to respond to your "less powerful" comment, it's one thing for Luke to not use all of his amazing powers in a given book, but it's quite another for Luke to do absolutely *nothing* at all in a novel. He didn't even come up with a decent idea or suggestion or show wisdom at all. Luke has many gifts and talents even without the Force, as Zahn showed in Heir to the Empire. However, in Backlash, Luke was just "present", pretty much. He wasn't successful at anything he attempted, and he was portrayed as pretty foolish. That's why I'm so annoyed about Luke's portrayal. Why include the character if he isn't going to *do* anything at all? As someone said, it would have been better for Luke to have been stuck on the Jade Shadow due to issues about his Exile. At least he wouldn't have looked like an idiot and wouldn't have appeared so weak and useless.


He either needs to be taken down a notch in power, moved out of the action or killed,

I think Luke just needs to be written better. Here in Backlash, there were many obstacles and challenges. Luke could have been written as wise, powerful, and useful, and STILL other characters could have been allowed to shine and the villains could still have been successful. With so many Sith, Nightsisters, rancors, and wild creatures on Dathomir, Luke and the others could all have faced worthy opponents; achieved some successes; but still have ended up in the same position as things ended up in Backlash. But having Luke fail at absolutely everything is what I feel was totally wrong.





dp4m : Are people REALLY upset that Luke Skywalker -- of all people there -- knew the difference between winning a sprint and winning a marathon? It was one of the few parts of that sequence of the book that was "vintage, awesome Luke" and in a non-showy way

I concede your point, dp. I don't think this would have bothered me at all if it hadn't been for the fact that Luke didn't accomplish anything at all in this book. This short race was yet one more instance of Luke being shown as weak in a book full of such examples, I thought. Consider it one straw too many.




Edit:

Kaxs : Another problem I had was how he stayed out of much of the fighting because he legally couldn't be on the hilltop. Fierfek, there are an entire clan's lives at stake, and he doesn't do his best to help because of a legal technicality?

I completely agree! I think it was in the SOS thread that I mentioned this very thing.

 

I didn't see Luke as a "demiGod of the force" in Abyss. He barely survived his fight with the Sith, after all.


Feel free to identify anybody else who could not eat for a month, then get out of an induced coma and fight half a dozen Sith Lords and win.

 

I haven't even posted in the thread for a few pages. How'd that happen?

 

Are we really having the same discussion yet again?

Luke Skywalkers is supposed to be as close to a demigod as it gets. He represents the pinnacle of a force user, and as such, should be the ceiling as far as how powerful a force user can get, is concerned.

Do you want Luke of all people to be toned down yet again? Every time that happens, his history gets filled more with contradictions and lacks any kind of stability. In addition, every jedi/sith associated with him instantly gets toned down as well when he gets toned down - including Yoda, Anakin, the Emperor etc.

What's so wrong about Luke being powerful? He is supposed to be the most powerful of them all (what the child of the force could have been). His portrayal requires that he be depicted with that kind of power, by default.

It is an utter lie that a powerful Luke somehow makes stories boring. The opposite is actually the case. This is no longer the time where people thirst to read about struggling heroes who get beaten to a bloody pulp only to somehow luckily survive the odds. There have been way too many of them. Also in Luke's case, he fulfilled his potential. In the beginning he was trying to find his place and trying to achieve the great potential that he had, but at this point in time he is bascially what everyone knew he would become. Yoda, Anakin, the Emperor and pretty much all his allies and enemies knew that in time, Luke would cast a shadow over future generations of Jedi/Sith. That is how it should be. He is Yoda, Mace, Obi-Wan and Anakin Skywalker combined into one.

When you try to tone down someone like that, we are automatically saying that is the limit of someone who is basically as powerful as it gets in the force. Then we get overzealous authors and editors trying to make new characters do ridiculous feats to outdo Luke, and create a whole bunch of mess, butchering Luke further and making new continuity holes in the process.

When I read about Luke, I don't want to read about the 19 year old barely powerful Jedi struggling against the odds. I want to read about the Grand master of the Jedi who his mentors and father and his worse enemies knew, would one day become the most powerful of them all. At this time in his life, that is who he is. It will make no sense at all to tone him down claiming that otherwise it is boring or predictable etc. They have tried such things with Luke before and failed miserably, just as how they have tried such things at DC and Marvel (and finally learned from those mistakes and stopped character butchery in the name of drama).

Please excuse me for the off-topic rant, but I could not take it anymore after years of trying to fight against the butchery of Luke's character

 

Right cause heros who struggle to overcome obstacles aren't interesting. the reason there is so many is because it works, it is a compelling story. I don't want Luke toned down I want him to move on, either be defeated by a new villain and then hand on to Ben, or to stay in the Temple like Yoda, but I expect you would probably complain about, or kill him. It solves all characterization problems, have him stop a sun from exploding or something equally as epic, but let new jedi step up. Maybe after this series Luke will stay at the temple and teach, while Ben has adventures.

I liked Luke in this, he didn't over shadow Ben, and did what he could to help, he also fought some Rancors, and then a Sith so he was cool.

This should be discussed in the Luke thread.

 

LOL! C'mon man, there's taking what I said out of context, but you went to the extreme here.

That's the thing though, he didn't really 'fail' at anything, he just wasn't the person solely responsible for the successes in the story.

-He lost the sprint, but won the marathon
-He didn't help the Bright Suns during the bug attack, but they ended up being ok

The only time he came 'close' to failing in this book was when the rancors turned around and threw boulders at him, catching him off guard. Still though, he would've overcame the challenge without Vestara's aid -- think about it. Why would Vestara help Luke if she didn't think he would live? Vestara wants Luke to die - she only intervened because she knew he would live anyway, and acting like she cared about him would help build credibility for her.

 

Lijot, great post! I completely agree with you.




AusStig : Right cause heros who struggle to overcome obstacles aren't interesting.

I don't think anyone said that. But it becomes boring when the same character is constantly shown as struggling to overcome obstacles, especially when those obstacles shouldn't be such a huge struggle.

You said that you don't want Luke to be toned down,but if you want him to be defeated by a new villain, then he would *be* toned down.


have him stop a sun from exploding or something equally as epic, but let new jedi step up.

I thought that was the whole point of Luke's exile: to let other Jedi like Jaina and Kenth Hamner have a chance to step up, right? So Luke's not standing in their way.

But I would love to see Luke do something truly epic like stop a sun from exploding. After his terrible characterization throughout LotF, I think Luke deserves to have a spectacular, heroic role to make up for it.



I liked Luke in this, he didn't over shadow Ben, and did what he could to help, he also fought some Rancors, and then a Sith so he was cool.

I don't want Luke to "overshadow" Ben, but that doesn't mean that Luke shouldn't be shown as being successful at things either. As I said before, all Luke did in Backlash was very temporarily take ONE rancor out of the action. For someone of Luke's power, that was like doing nothing at all. And yes, he fought one Sith, but he didn't win the fight, while young Ben and someone who was not a Jedi managed to take out THREE. Does that make any sense really? If Luke had been written correctly, he should have at least defeated ONE Sith. As someone pointed out, even in a terribly weakened condition, without having had food for weeks, Luke still managed to defeat several Sith, including a powerful Master. Now that he was well, it was ridiculous that he couldn't beat even one.



This should be discussed in the Luke thread.

I would be very happy to discuss this with you further in the SOS thread, if you wish. However, since our discussion here concerns Luke's characterization in Backlash, it's also appropriate for this thread.





Kalphite : That's the thing though, he didn't really 'fail' at anything, he just wasn't the person solely responsible for the successes in the story.

My problem with Luke's characterization in Backlash isn't that he didn't do everything, but that he really did nothing. Yes, he won a marathon. Big deal. For a Jedi Grand Master that should have been a given.

But Luke *did* fail at everything of consequence that he attempted in Backlash. He didn't get to Vestara before she was able to entrench herself with the witches in a way that meant Luke couldn't get to her. He was outsmarted by this teenage Sith throughout the book. He and Ben lost their speeders and had their lightsabers and other electronics shorted out. He wasn't able to sense the witches, even though he tried to meditate to gain knowledge about who was harrying him and Ben. He fell right into one of their traps and needed to be rescued by Han and Leia.

Then Luke didn't help with the sparkflies; didn't help stop a conflict between clans; didn't figure out who was a Nightsister among them. Luke failed to keep all but ONE rancor from attacking the clans at the top of the hill, and only for a short time. He again needed to be rescued (this time by a 16 year old Sith) from a rock avalanche and the Nightsisters. In Luke's weakened condition after being pelted with the rocks, he very likely wouldn't have been able to get away from the Nightsisters on his own.

Luke failed to help the Clan fight the rancors and Nightsisters, as by the time he weakened some of the threads of the web with his very controversial method, Ben and the others had already figured out how to deal with the rancors and Nightsisters on their own.

Luke also failed at defeating even ONE Sith, and then he failed to get safely away from Dathomir, as he was surround

 

At this point how much should Luke personally accomplish in each novel? How do we really measure his contributions? Force wise? Application of wisdom? Is there a wisdom in letting his apprentice (who is a fully trained Jedi) handle most everything? I wouldn't say he accomplished nothing. I felt Allston was making the first tentative steps at handing the reins over to his son, the future Grand Master.

Foolish? Where exactly was he foolish cause I missed that altogether.

He did give a nice final contribution at the end of the book by dispatching the The Lost Tribe's Lord o' Lords in a short fight. He gave us an idea of how weenie the Lost Tribe is compared to Luke's Order as he was sizing up his opponent and thinking of which other Jedi masters could take him.

 

Agree completely

Indeed - and really it makes sense. The Sith believe that only through conflict and struggle can they become more powerful. These Sith have been stuck on the same planet for a long time doing nothing -- contrast that with Luke's Order, which has seen more battle and has more experience than the Sith Tribe can even dream up.

 

Manisphere : At this point how much should Luke personally accomplish in each novel? How do we really measure his contributions? Force wise? Application of wisdom?

I think Luke should accomplish at least one thing of consequence in a novel, or show his wisdom by coming up with at least one useful idea. And while there is wisdom in letting an apprentice handle a lot in order to give him/her experience, there is NO wisdom in letting people die or suffer so an apprentice can "handle" things. Luke could have helped alleviate the pain of those who got attacked by the sparkflies. I truly feel Luke should have done more to stop the rancor attacks. Too many people died.

And allowing an apprentice to figure things out doesn't explain why Luke himself, even though he was trying to sense things in the Force, completely missed the fact that multiple witches and rancors were lying in wait for him and that they had set up traps for him and Ben.


Foolish? Where exactly was he foolish cause I missed that altogether.

Foolish in not sensing all the witches and their traps. Even Ben commented, "Embarrassing, isn't it?" Foolish in that a 16 year old outsmarted him for days. Foolish in that he didn't sense the danger of the rocks until they were hitting him. Foolish in that he was caught in a trap by the Sith. Foolish in that he was commenting to himself that he was better than the Sith he faced, only to have that Sith fight him to a standstill and get away.



He did give a nice final contribution at the end of the book by dispatching the The Lost Tribe's Lord o' Lords in a short fight.

He didn't "dispatch" the Sith Lord though. Ben and Dyon took down three Sith. Luke didn't beat even the one Sith. He got into his shuttle and got away. Luke even ruefully said about Lord Galen: "He's countering my power". So, no, Luke didn't defeat the Sith.