***The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread***

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Darth_Odious, Jun 7, 2002.

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  1. Darth_Odious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
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    The moderators have been contacted to lock the old thread, before anyone complains.


    NOTE: PLEASE READ THIS AND THE NEXT POST BEFORE STARTING IN ON THIS THREAD. DON'T BE A MR. BUNGLES!!! :D

    THE POST THAT STARTED IT ALL:

    ?OK, bear with me folks, I have to use all 4 films to give this proof.

    1. Sensing the Dark side of the force.

    IN TPM, Yoda said 'hard to see the dark side is'; not 'impossible'. Even young Luke could sense the Dark side on dagobah in ESB; even though no sith was there to manipulate it. Luke also sensed it before he saw Darth Vader in Bespin; he ignited his Sabre before seing Vader. Therefore, the Dark side's presence is easily detected in person, so to speak.

    In TPM, the entire Jedi Council stands next to Palpatine at Qui-Gonn's funeral. If he was the Sith master, they'd know it!

    2. The attempt to control then kill Queen
    Amidala in TPM.

    Two other things in TPM prove Sidious and Palpatine had different knowledge of events.

    Sidious wants the Queen controlled on Naboo to sign the treaty. When she is at Coruscant, Palpatine tries to discourage her from returning to Naboo, where she'd be forced to sign the treaty. If he was in fact Sidious, this is exactly what he wants. He would not try to discourage her.

    Further, and this is a clincher, Palpatine knows she returned to Naboo. But when Sidious talks to the Trade Viceroy, he does not warn her the Queen is coming!!! If Palpatine was Sidious he would have made sure they were warned of her coming, and were waiting for her arrival. Instead, she got past them.

    Also, Palpatine knew she 'was going to take back what is ours'. That she intended to fight to retake Naboo. She told him so before leaving Coruscant. But Sidious expressed surprise at learning of the Queen's arrival on the planet & organizing an army to fight... "this is an unexpected move for her... its too aggressive".

    3. Cloning (AOTC spoilers)

    We know the Senate was manipulated into granting Palpatine emergency powers. That he chose to create a clone army to defend the republic. Again, Sidious is working behind the scenes, using this as a means to setup the destruction of the Jedi.

    But the clone army is used to fight and defeat the forces of Darth Tyranus. It is not reasonable for Sidious to fight on both sides, so to speak.

    I think Sidious was behind the entire cloning program.

    I think Palpatine is one of the very first clones ever - a clone of Sidious himself.

    I believe Palpatine is what he appears to be - an ambitious but scrupulous politician. He is the Emperor, but one who never succumbed to the Dark Side of the Force. He is a Pawn.

    Sidious created Palpatine, a clone of himself. He manipulated events to get Palpatine elected chancellor. He then went further and engineered a revolt, knowing Palpatine would have no choice but to bow to senate pressure to declare an emergency.

    Using Palpatines innocent sincerity, he is able to keep the Jedi ignorant of his real designs. They deal with Palpatine regularly; and sense no evil. But since Palpatine is Sidious' clone...

    In Episode III, he kills or has Palpatine Killed so he can replace him. So he has acheived his goal of Galactic Empire, without ever putting himself at risk.

    You need only look at the OT to realize, the Emperor uses others to do his dirty work. Look at how he planned to use Luke to kill Vader and replace him. This is one sneaky manipulator.

    I doubt he would risk exposure to the entire Jedi Order by direct personal contact. It creates too much risk. Not to mention a huge plot quandary.

    NON-FILM PROOF

    Timothy Zahn wrote the Lucas-officially-sanctioned trilogy to follow ROTJ.

    In it, the Bad Guy is a CLONED JEDI MASTER! He is insane, and gave into the dark side.
    At the end of the Third book, he is referred to as the 'resurrected' Emperor.

    The emperor's Tarantus Mountain project is built around his secret cloning program.

    So it is only natural to infer that Cloning of Jedi is not a new thing. I submit that the Emperor cloned himself first;
  2. Darth_Odious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 1
    PART 2: REQUIRED READING FOR THIS THREAD

    Here are some of the notes I?ve put together from the original thread. Many of the questions bring up have answers below, please feel free to add further posts that cover the standard responses to FAQ?s that I forgot/missed.




    Strongholds of the Anti-Clone Argument:

    -The similarities between Sidious' office and Palpatines.

    This one's not necessarily hard, as they could be the same office, and palpy is just that forward at times.

    -The voice over in the making of portion of the DVD, which apparently refers to either sidious' office as Palpy's, or is referring to the set as being the same.

    We need a quote of this one. I don't have the DVD, because I'm a loser, but if someone who has it could get the quote, that would be great. Again, this doesn't destroy the clone theory per se, but it does lead us into point 3.

    -Sidious sure seems awfully brazen for someone fearing detection.

    Especially if he's showing up at palpy's office. The clone theorists then have to determine if its being in the same room with the jedi that the sith are avoiding, or the same general area.

    -The clone theory is anticlimactic, a non-twist, as the casual viewer thinks they are different people altogether, and only we expect them to be the same.

    Good point. My take is, if he did the clone theory, it would be to give us, his fanatics, one more twist for the road, and not worry about the casual viewer whose eyes will pop out at the special effects anyway.





    Clones and The Force

    -Clones of people trained in use of the force are not force users themselves without training.

    -Because midichlorians are symbiotes, it is questionable whether a clone of a jedi/sith would not have midichlorians, or if there is a gene that attracts them.

    -Force ability is probably hereditary, as seen in the Skywalker family.





    Sensing Force Users

    -Most documented cases of force users detecting each other involve those who have feelings for each other or the use of powerful feelings. Darth sensed Luke, the Emporer did not. Ani was sensed, but it is unclear, were he not the one, that he would have been sensed so far from Coruscant otherwise, and the feelings and his actions when it happened were, with the exception of the death of the emporer and the redemption of ani, the most powerful event in the force ever.

    -It is unclear whether jedi could sense a sith in front of them. Qui Gon did not sense Maul, he was warned of him by more conventional means. Yoda said Dooku was of the dark side, but Dooku was standing over the one armed Ani and the incapacitated obi wan at the time, plus had just been using his sith powers, so it was pretty obvious.

    -On the other hand, sensing those with force potential who are untrained is not a clue that a plot is afoot. Thus, the Palpy clone, being possibly high in midichlorians, would not be more suspect just because he has them.





    Darth Sidious? Eyes

    -The Emporer in ROTJ had yellow eyes.

    -Palpatine in the PT has blue eyes.

    -Sidious? eyes have not been revealed. NOTE: THERE IS A PRESS STILL OF SIDIOUS WITHOUT YELLOW CONTACTS. HOWEVER, THE ACTOR WOULD NOT BE WEARING SUCH LENSES ON THE SET OF A MOVIE WHERE HIS EYES ARE NOT REVEALED. THUS IT IS JUST A PRESS STILL, NOT CANON.





    Palpatine, The Clone

    -In order for Palpatine to function as a senator, he could not be a clone like the clonetroopers, with diminished will, but must be like Boba, fully functioning.

    -Clearly the clone would have to be intelligent, and thus would see that his life was in great danger by being part of Sidious'?plan, as the only reason to put a clone of yourself in power is to kill him and take his place without having to get tied up in the rise to political power. Thus, the clone must be controlled somehow. My idea is that Sidious is always not too far away from Palpy, but that is just my idea.






    The Jedi and Indoctrination

    -As the Palpy clone might be high in midichlorians, this raises the issue of whether t
  3. Darth_Odious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 1
  4. foxbatkllr Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 2001
    star 6
    If its not a movie, its not really evidence for a discussion of the final product that will be Ep. III. Same goes for OS, EU, and all of your older brother?s comic books.

    I see.

    NON-FILM PROOF

    Timothy Zahn wrote the Lucas-officially-sanctioned trilogy to follow ROTJ.

    In it, the Bad Guy is a CLONED JEDI MASTER! He is insane, and gave into the dark side.
    At the end of the Third book, he is referred to as the 'resurrected' Emperor.


    Huh? You can't have it both ways!!!
  5. Darth_Odious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 1
    I was giving credit to the original poster.

    I agree, that evidence is not admissable as proof.
  6. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    Well, that sums it up!

    Good job Darth_Odious.

    I don't think that I have heard any solid proof yet for either side. It's all speculation and guessing. I have to admit though it's very interesting stuff.

    I stand by my original thought:

    Palpatine is the love child of the Monkey Woman from ESB and Darth Sidious!
  7. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    *makes a copy and paste rendition of "Required reading of posts 1 and 2 on page 1, before we will consider your arguments." hehehehe!!!
  8. netslave Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 2
    that's a better title. ;)
  9. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    (Put formerly known as "PROOF: Palpatine is NOT Sidious (Lenghty Proof)"
  10. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    **Attention Clone theory proponents**

    Does this sound right? I am trying to understand.

    Sidious at some point is seduced by a Dark Master. He then bests his master and begins training his apprentices. At some time, he creates a clone of himself, drops it on Naboo, and finds a family to raise the baby (Palps). Somehow, this family is not suspicious when the baby displays accelerated growth, and no one else notices either. Palpatine is influenced by Sidious to become active in politics and begins to manipulate the local government to keep Palpatine on the move. Palpatine is unaware of Sidious and is having his strings pulled from afar. As Palpatine moves up the political chain, all the way to Chancellor, not one Jedi ever notices that he is being manipulted by the Dark Side. Once everything is in place, Sidious kills Palpatine, assumes the name and controls the Empire.

    Does that sound right?
  11. jedi4500 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2002
    star 1
    i am in the middle with the sidious/palpatine issue...i think they are the same, but why wouldnt GL just make it known to us in either TPM or AOTC? He makes it so obvious that they are the same person, that i feel they are really not...
  12. netslave Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 2
    repeat of my reply in other thread:

    fox says:
    1. As far as the debate regarding Anakin and Vader, ROTJ can't be used just like evidence from Episode 3 can't be used for the Palps/Sidious debate.
    2. Is this the same Obi-Wan that told Luke that Vader killed Anakin?



    why can't we use all the films as evidence? if we can't, then you can't even use ani/vader as an argument at all!
  13. tnt Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2000
    star 4
    Why does'nt Palpatine instruct the Jedi to kill Sidious before Sidious gets a chance to kill him?
  14. netslave Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
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    (because it'll be sidious who gets killed and palpatine is the real sith lord)

    I think I am the only one who thinks this way.
  15. Darth_Odious Jedi Master

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    May 30, 2002
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    It depends on the theorist,
    I don't know if accelerated growth was used. That was a specific clause in the clonetrooper order, and was not used with boba fett.

    Also, I have not theorized who made the clone. It could be part of an overall sith plot predating sidious, possibly foreseen by his master(sidious being sort of the sith "one").

    Of course, that hasn't made its way into the clone theory yet.
  16. Darth_Odious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 1
    And ALL the films are evidence.
  17. Darth_Odious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
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    Perhaps Palpy is more afraid of sidious than he is reliant on the jedi. Maybe he knows something we don't.
  18. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    Accelerated growth or not, Palpatine is certainly aging rapidly. That opens another channel of debate on the issue. Why would Sidious have his clone use rapid aging? He would want time to instruct him and rapid aging would be suspicious. On the other hand, it was always thought that the aged looked of the Emperor was a result of the Dark Side. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
  19. jedi4500 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2002
    star 1
    we still didnt get the answer to the phantom menace...i think GL has something planned, he cant make 3 new movies and not have some plot twist...
  20. netslave Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 2
    To my fellow Palp=/=Sid believers


    why does everyone who believes they are different assume that it's sidious that is the future emporer and not palpatine? I believe that all the evidence in the movies and even the OS (for those who consider that canon) points to palpatine being the sith lord, future emporer. I think it's sidious that is the pawn, decoy, clone, whatever. more like a decoy the same way amidala uses decoys. ;)
  21. foxbatkllr Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 2001
    star 6
    why can't we use all the films as evidence? if we can't, then you can't even use ani/vader as an argument at all!

    My point was this. We've only seen two movies in the PT and all you Palpy is not Sidious people think you have it all figured out. What I'm trying to say is that if this was 1980, you people would all be saying that Anakin and Vader are two different people. You would be using quite a few of the same arguments as in the Palpy is not Sidious debate. You would be using the same cop-out argument that every bit of evidence against it is merely a lie to cover up the truth.


    why does everyone who believes they are different assume that it's sidious that is the future emporer and not palpatine? I believe that all the evidence in the movies and even the OS (for those who consider that canon) points to palpatine being the sith lord, future emporer

    Because that throws out one of your main Palps is not Sidious arguments. That the Jedi should be able to detect someone strong in the force who is in the same room with them.
  22. jedi4500 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2002
    star 1
    why would sidious be the decoy? for who? he only shows himself to dooku and maul...
  23. tnt Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2000
    star 4
    Oh dear, a difference of opinion between Odious and Netslave. Come one, which one will become the Emperor?

  24. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    *is quietly waiting for the first person to post -- > "Why are you still debating this?!! OMG, Palps=Sidious!"* After which time, I will be able to employ my arsenal of rebuttals, especially designed for the unknowing newcomer to the debate, primed and loaded and awaiting its target! Let the redundancy begin!! :D
  25. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    Does Sidious ever reveal his face to Maul or Dooku? I recall him always hunched down with his hood draped very low to conceal his face.



    "Why are you still debating this?!! OMG, Palps=Sidious!"*
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