***The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread***

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Darth_Odious, Jun 7, 2002.

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  1. 1-R2-Ter Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2001
    June 11, 2002
    Via E-Mail

    LucasArts Entertainment Company LLC
    Attn: Business Email via Manufacture Communications, Inc.
    PO Box 10307
    San Rafael, CA 94912
    E-mail: postmaster@lucasarts.com

    Dear Jon
    While working on the LucasArts packaging for the new Insider Guide CD-ROM, I got the heads up this morning of a scene originally intended for Episode 2, but since that movie ran for so long, it was cut out from the original draft. Note that this was an original edited scene from the Episode 2 script, not from the upcoming Episode 3 script ? though that?s kinda why I?m sending you this, as great speculation!
    To cut a long story short, it?s the scene when the audience finds out about the much-debated entities of Palpatine and Sidious ? are they the same or are they two people? In fact, it seems such a heated argument that the producer of the series was desperate to extinguish it by having secret revealed indefinitely. Anyway, the scene in the very early drafts suggested Yoda in fact fighting Palpatine aka Sidious after Palpatine tells him in private of his secrets. Yoda doesn?t win and instead retreats the Jedi Order (I?m assuming for Dagobah), and leaving the tired force-protectors without a master Jedi. I don?t know what to make of Yoda ? cowardly or smart?
    The reason I knew this is because on the original ?Insider Guide to Attack of the Clones? CD-ROM was meant to tell us this snippet, until it was insisted among our peers that this major detail be deleted from the CD-ROM. Just thought it would of interest to you. Have a good one, Jon.
  2. YodaJeff Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2001
    star 7
    Wow.. Nice e-mail. I guess that also answers the question of whether or not there will be an AOTC Insiders Guide.
  3. RogueTrader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2002
    star 4
    From the book The Art Of Star Wars: Attack of the Clones. This is a book showing all of the conceptual design work and pre-production elements that went into the making of this movie. I'm an artist so I snatched this book up immediately.
    In the Chancellor Palpatine section of the book the designers describe what George was looking for and what they came up with design-wise regarding Palpatine in this latest movie.

    pg. 126 reads:

    As the seperatist crisis builds, Palpatine - who has been elected Supreme Chancellor by the senate - broods in this early [Edwin] Natividad drawing.

    Like Anakin Skywalker, who is destined by the established Star Wars storyline to become Darth Vader, Palpatine is fated to become the Emperor whose tyranny leads to the Galactic Civil War. As such, the concept artists began foreshadowing the character's dark side turn in many of their sketches.

    For Edwin Natividad, the growing darkness was foreshadowed in the gloomy atmosphere surrounding Palpatine. "In Episode II we see Palpatine becoming evil," Natividad explained. "It's in the lighting, seeing the future Emperor in the distance - it's more of a negative feeling being conveyed."


    "In Episode II the images of Palpatine were moving towards moody and dark. He's got an edge - but he's not yet the dark Emperor." - Dermont Power


    pg. 127 shows a sketch of Palpatine staring out the window in his office.

    pg. 128 states:

    "Palpatines's face is showing signs of the Emperor's facial markings," McCaig revealed. "The idea is that the evil inside him is corrupting his flesh. This is the missing link between [the prequel character] and the Emperor from the original films."

    There you have it.


    Now if you say George Lucas is lying to his design team at the Ranch, I hope you realize how ridiculous it sounds. These artists are credible sources. They work feverishly under the direction of George to get what he wants design-wise.

    I'll give you cloners a while to pick it apart and digest it but this is proof. You can't deny this as being credible. Well, you can, but it's pointless.
  4. Jedi_Lite Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2002
    star 4
    Rogue Trader - that is very nice and all - and I DO believe Sidious is Palpatine, but all I read from those passages is that Chancellor Palpatine is turning into the Emperor. No one in their right mind has ever disputed this. This makes no mention of Palpatine also being the mysterious Darth Sidious.

    Now... about that e-mail at the top of the page ... TELL ME MORE ABOUT THIS!! Who sent this to whom?? Yoda in a duel with Sidious/Palpatine??? :)
  5. RogueTrader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2002
    star 4
    Dude, that's what this whole thread is about. Palpatine is a clone. Sidious kills him and becomes Emperor. That's what I'm trying to defeat. Since Palpatine is a Sith Lord anyway then there is no reason for Sidious to have cloned himself. Plus that DOES break the rule of 2.
  6. Darth_OlsenTwins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    FOTR

    If that French mag really does say that "one of the Jedi Council members knows its gonna happen" then you should start a thread discussing that point. Thats a good topic with some proof from GL that somebody is either a turncoat or they at least know more than they are letting on.
  7. 1-R2-Ter Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2001
    An insider called SPECTRE sent me this. He?s a db programmer at the studio. He thought he managed to stumble onto the very-incomplete script of ep3 and read a few passages on what Mr. Lucas has written so far. At first he thought it was part of the Episode 3 script, then I realised it was just notes on the original drafts of Episode 2 for insertion for the AOTC CD-ROM ?Insider?s Guide?. A few people in the ?industry? now have a certain knowledge of this scene. At some point in the ep2 drafts, Sidious removes his hood (figuratively)and this was intended as an alternate ending sans some changes to the rest of the second movie. At the end of the current film, I thought that was when Palpatine would be revealed, but now reading how he may show himself in Episode 3, I feel this would have messed up Attack of the Clones. [Possible Spoiler ahead] The event takes place during a confrontation scene with Kenobi and Yoda. Both good-side Jedi approach Palpatine (not Sidious) near the middle of the early drafts and ask what has become of Anakin. There are obvious blank sections surrounding what has happened beforehand but it eventually goes on with Palpatine citing Anakin has gone elsewhere [Massive spoiler ahead: turn back now] to Fury Fortunia. Kenobi heads off but Yoda stays. There is no dialogue mentioned, but it details how Yoda feels the darkside in Palpatine and is deeply confused. At this point, Palpatine announces how he has been manipulating the senate under the façade of Darth Sidious. Yoda is so off-balanced by this revelation that Palpatine badly beats him. That?s all SPECTRE got out of the notes as it?s so badly put together with different notes complied with blank sections and absolute lack of dialogue and minor details. I sent it to tf.n staff, as you do, and got the no-go, so I sent it here. Its kickass to say the least.
  8. RogueTrader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2002
    star 4
  9. RogueTrader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2002
    star 4
  10. foxbatkllr Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 2001
    star 6
    "No need to debate till we have something to debate."

    "This debate's over!"
  11. Darth-Solo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 1
    It feels like a victory was achieved. Good job everyone. Now...on to that Syfo-Dyas debate.
  12. Jedi_Lite Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2002
    star 4
    1-R2-Ter - That's awesome. You should also start a thread on it in the Episode III forum if you haven't (I never go there, personally, so I wouldn't know).
  13. RogueTrader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2002
    star 4
    I think you're right Darth Solo. I hereby declare the debate over and award the Palpatine=Sidious folks the victory.

    Good Job everyone.
    A nod goes out to Darth OlsenTwins, Darth Sinister, Darth Solo, Sometimey, Maverick, Foxbatklr, FOTR (for bringing up the Art of Book first) and the rest of the anti-clone theorists.

    A nod also goes out to Odious, Undomial, LukeDuff and alot of the other cloners for the long debate and the wild imaginations.

    Palpatine is a sith lord known as Darth Sidious.
  14. PLO_KOON_DUDE Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2002
    star 2
    Amen.....DEATH TO THIS THREAD.....put it out of its misery now
  15. Darth-Solo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 1
    Yippeeeee...sorry, I couldn't resist.
  16. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    No offense, but I'm not sure how reliable that source is 1-R2-Ter. No offense or anything.
  17. PLO_KOON_DUDE Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2002
    star 2
    Personally if that Palpatine whoops Yoda and Yoda leaves the JO cause he is in shok, Ill be dissapointed. Yoda is considered to be all powerful, aand all knowing and humble. I woud hate it that Yoda would leave the JO and give up on everything cause he lost one fight, get a grip, I dont wanna see Yoda go out that way....
  18. Darth-Solo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 1
    It wasn't just one source that ended the debate, but several that pointed to the same conclusion. I don't think that there is a conspiracy.
  19. PLO_KOON_DUDE Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2002
    star 2
    Hey the dude with the e-mail..is there any way you could forward that e-mail to me i just wanna read it more..my e-mail is ffm_dudeman_100@hotmail.com
  20. RogueTrader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2002
    star 4
    UP! I want everyone to see the demise of the clone theory! AH HA HA!


    Was that too harsh?
  21. MANDALORIAN Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 1999
    star 4
  22. FOTR-AOTC-TTT_2002 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 20, 2002
    star 3
    Aaaah ! Vic-tory !



    Someone mentionned an AOTC insider CD_ROM. When is it supposed to be released ? I've been looking for it, but cannot even find an announcement.


    Darth Olsen : yes, Lucas said in that article that one member of the Council knows, by the time of TPM, that things will turn bad for the galaxy. That's when he mentionned that *Senator Palpatine* would be the one to make things go bad and turn the republic into an Empire etc ... .
    However, Lucas never meant in that interview that the jedi council member knew that Palpatine was the bad guy.

    Back then, in 1999, there were many very interesting Lucas interviews and infos in french mags. Unfortunately it's not the case with AOTC.
  23. Darth_Odious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 1
    If no one objects, I would like to keep this thread open until the end of the week, just in case FOTR or anyone else finds some good GL quotes that finalize this.

    It does seem to me that it would be unlikely for GL to go through the trouble and money having his art team produce such work for a red herring, although I doubt these teams have much foreknowledge of future star wars scripts. Nonetheless, I will concede.

    Palpatine=Sidious

    Good job Rogue Trader, FOTR, Und, Maverick, OB(we needed your humor to keep us from killing each other), PLO(ditto!), taes, Disco Dooku(who, along with Maverick, probably did the most debating on this topic of anyone involved), and anyone I forgot.

    To those who wanted an "I was wrong", well, seeing as how I thought sid=palpy all along, you can just eat my shorts. :p

    Good debating. Now if we could just come up with a definitive end to the Kit Fisto thread, we'd really have achieved something.

    :D

    Ended, the clone wars have.
  24. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    I thought Qui-Gon was Sidious? Now I am all confused. Can someone point me to the "I am an idiot and I think Jinn is an evil Sith Lord, please kill me now in a most painful way" thread?
  25. darth_pooh Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2002
    star 4
    The only reason I regret seeing this whole argument die...jeez, think of all the other threads it has killed: like the vampire theory... :eek:...... I regret it because it was a great way to have semi-intelligent argument and a way for new people to cut their teeth on arguing a little.

    Oh well. Goodbye. And may the week I spend arguing about this a while back go into the darkness! :p
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