***The Official "Is Palpatine Sidious?" Debate Thread***

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Darth_Odious, Jun 7, 2002.

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  1. Darth_OlsenTwins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    Lisaordrigues

    Will you stop posting that. Its obvious that you are a sock and you are not appreciated here. That's the second time youve changed your user name to get back on here. GO AWAY.
  2. PLO_KOON_DUDE Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2002
    star 2
    hah obhave if u looka t my previous posts i already stated that fact. And I just found out Boba Fett is Padem's uncle, wand im still pretty sure Nute Gunray is anikans true father. And Sifo-Dyas is Sio Bibble duh
  3. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
  4. PLO_KOON_DUDE Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2002
    star 2
    Dont want to lost this to the third page.........UP
  5. Mr Bungle Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 4
    PLO_KOON_DUDE:

    You couldn't have been drunk THAT early in the afternoon, could you?! :p
  6. Jedi-Wanna-be Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2002
    star 1
    I still believe that Palpatine and Sidious are clones, or twins. But it is quite possible that they are Rivals or Enemies.
    They may be aware of each other, and both striving for galactic domination. One is a Sith lord; the other is an opportunistic politician.

    Both of them are seeking galactic domination. One as a Politician. The other as a Sith lord. They may or may not be aware of each other. But both have ulterior motives.

    The Sith Palpatine needs to hide from the Jedi, using others to do his dirty work. He works from a relative distance, behind the scenes, because he would be detected and exposed by the jedi if he confronted them.

    The Political Palpatine is using his position in the Senate to gain power. He manipulates events as best he can, and employs the jedi when needed to achieve his goals. He may also be trying to use the Jedi to stave off Sidious. He must use subterfuge to keep the Jedi from realizing he wants a dictatorship. He is no sith lord; but he does desire POWER.

    It seems to me that we are seeing a 3-way power struggle forming. The Jedi vs. the Sith vs. Chancellor Palpatine. I strongly suspect that Sidious and Palpatine are now working at cross purposes. They are double-crossing each other. Its almost as if they're opposite twins, who hate each other, and want the same thing, but by opposite means. Both want to rule the galaxy. One uses the evil dark side of the force; the other uses politics. (the dark side of the real world we live in.)

    I have refined my theory based on new information in AOTC. I decided to look at Palps / Sidious not as just clones, or twins, or allies, but their actions. (Some of you will recognize me as the originator of the Palps != Sidious thread.)

    1. Dooku

    Dooku and his allies are surprised by the attack of the Clone Army. He makes the statement in his 'war room'...
    "My master will not allow the Republic to get away with this TREACHERY."

    This suggests that the creation & use of the clone army were not a part of his master's plan, ie Sidious' plan. It is treachery.
    Yet when he speaks to Sidious, 'all is proceeding according to plan.'

    This seems to suggest that Palpatine's sanctioning of the Clone army is not what Sidious had in mind. It seemed from AOTC that he and Dooku intended to use the Robot armies to destroy the Jedi, and overthrow the republic. It appears that Sidious and Palpatine are playing different strategies.

    2. Obi-Wan

    Dooku tells obi-wan that the Sith control the senate. Or at least, 100s of senators. Note that it is never stated that the entire senate; just hundreds of the senators.
    Obi-wan also does not trust the Chancellor, that he plays on the emotions of the Senators.

    This seems to suggest similarities between what we know Sidious is doing, and what Palpatine is doing. Are they trying to achieve the same goal, by different means?

    3. Guarding Padme

    Palpatine suggested that Obi-wan gaurd Padme. It was the surest way to insure that she was not assassinated. Yet, it is clear that Dooku and the separatists want her dead.
    If indeed Dooku is serving Palpatine as Sidious, then this is counter-productive.
    It makes sense, however, if Palpatine and Sidious are playing off against each other.

    Sidious is using the separatists to kill Padme. Palpatine is trying to keep her alive. Remember, it was Palpatine who got the jedi involved. It was his suggestion they protect Padme; which lead to the investigation; to the discovery of the separatist plot; to the clone army.

    If Palpatine had not involved the Jedi, the separatists would have surprised & overwhelmed the republic. He used the Jedi to save himself and the republic, and thwart Dooku. If he was Sidious, he should've kept his mouth shut, and used Dooku's armies to conquer the galaxy.


    4. Anakin

    Clearly, Palpatine is anakin's mentor. Anakin respects him; and apparently, share's Palpatine's political views. Both of them want strong central leadership, to force agreement and collective good.

    I think this is genuin
  7. Jedi-Wanna-be Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2002
    star 1
    I am frankly surprised no-one has thought of this before.

    I hope those of you who have argued previously both the pro and con will note this twist.

    It explains a lot of they are twins (or clones), but working against each other.

    1. It explains why Sidious wanted the Queen captured in TPM, but Palps wanted her to stay on Coruscant.

    2. It explains why Sidious did not warn Nute she was coming back to Naboo to fight - because he did not know, Palpatine did.

    3. It explains why the Jedi do not sense Palpatine being a Sith.

    4. It explains the relationship between Palpatine and Anakin. Palps wants a dictatorship, but he is not a Sith lord.

    5. It also explains why in the OT the emperor is never called Darth Sidious by anyone, including GL, EU, or credits.

    6. It explains the 'treachery' of the Republic which Dooku refers to in AOTC.

    7. It explains Palpatine wanting the Jedi to keep Padme alive. (Because he knows Sidious wants her dead.)

    It opens the possibility for Sid & Palps to have a confrontation, perhaps with the one killing the other. The OT would seem to suggest that Palps wins - perhaps with Anakin's help? And somehow, perhaps because he is a clone or twin, he gains Sidious' dark side powers when Sidious dies? Pure speculation; but it does reconcile many existing contradictions in the films.
  8. empiremovies Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2001
    The latest Homing Beacon (#62) begins like this...

    "Joining the pantheon of such dark side villains as Darth Sidious, Darth Maul, Darth Vader and the Emperor is Christopher Lee's Count Dooku, or Darth Tyranus."

    Why would it say Sidious AND the Emperor?!?
  9. Sampson Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2002
    Ooooh, I LIKE that last point about the Homing Beacon.
  10. RogueTrader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2002
    star 4
    Please let this thread die.

    Jedi-Wanna-Be, If Sidious was an enemy of Palpatine's, he simply would have had him killed. Or he would have had Dooku hire someone to do it. Why deal with a power struggle when you could just blast him?

    The Homing Beacon?!?!?! You find that "interesting" but when Lucas or one of his comrades says they are the same person, it's scoffed at and they are called liars.
  11. RogueTrader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2002
    star 4
    Counterpoints to Jedi Wanna be's...uh... points.

    1.Since Palpatine is Sidious but not wanting anyone to know he is evil, what was he supposed to say? "Queen Amidala, your choice to willingly confront the Trade Federation with little hope of victory is a great one. They will either kill you or force you to sign the treaty. You're making a wise decision. Go get 'em tiger!"

    This scene is simply a little bit of lying on Palpatine's part. Many of the pro-cloners look WAY too much into it. At this point, Amidala's usefullness is over. If she lives or dies, it doesn't matter. Palpatine is in the running for election. That's all he needed.

    2. That part was written but was cut from the final film due to it being unecessary.

    3. The Jedi do not sense Palpatine is a Sith because he has mastered the technique of cloaking his abilities. Maul hid his presence all through TPM and he was a mere apprentice.

    4. Oh, he want's a dictatorship all right. And since Dooku thinks himself the baddest mutha in the galaxy, Palpatine understands the need to replace him with someone else after he has served his purpose.

    5. I don't recall the name Palpatine being heard in the OT either. Nor do I recall Organa, Y-wing, AT-ST, Bib Fortuna, Wampa, 2-1B, Lars, Wicket, AT-AT, Mon Mothma.... and on and on and on. This means nothing. Besides, Palpatine is probably his real name. No need to use the alias of Darth Sidious when you're done hiding.

    6. Dooku's statement was made for all to hear. I HIGHLY doubt that Nute and the other members of the confederacy know that Dooku's master is Chancellor Palpatine. To understand that would be to realize the confederacy was meant to be destroyed from the beginning. Besides, I doubt Dooku or Sidious would trust anyone in that room with the Chancellor's TRUE identity.

    7. This scene is probably just him being everybody's favorite Chancellor. (pssst... it's to keep the average audience member fooled. shhhh.) OR he probably knew of Anakin's feelings toward Padme' and how strong they are. If Anakin falls for her and gets booted out of the order, so much the better. He'd be much easier to recruit as his new apprentice then.

    Well, that's all I had to say. Makes sense to me.

    I don't think I can even comment on the transfer of sith power between the clones/brothers. There's no way.
  12. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    Water, High Fructose Corn Syrup,Maltodextrin (Glucose Polymers),Citric Acid, Natural Flavors, Potassium Citrate, Acacia, Salt, Red 40, Potassium, Glycerol, Ester of Wood Rosin, Brominated Vegetable Oil, Niacinamide, Pyridoxine, Hydrochloride, Cyanocobalamin.
  13. merlin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 1999
    star 4
  14. BLK27 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2002
    if palipatine is siddious' clone or visa versa or if they are different people (palpatine being good just watned power) but they both know of each other and are working agaisnt each other to gain power then why doesnt palpatine just tell the jedi councel about siddious?

    Why can it not be possible for siddious to be able to conceal himself in front of the jedi? They could not detect dooku being on the darkside until after he attacked. they could not sense maul until after he attacked so why is it not reasonable that the man who tought those two could not cloak his abilities?

    the reason siddious said everthing was going to plan in ATOC during the final battle is because he didn't plan on yoda bringing back the clone army with him.

    Siddious is playing both sides of the war so he can eliminate as many jedi as possible (which is his only real threat) while at the same time increasing his power in the seante (ie. he was given the power to build an army) which he knew he would need to put down any rebellions he would run into in the future.

    Plus why would palpatine if he was not siddious say to anikan that he could FORESEE him becoming the most powerful jedi of them all. If palpatine was not siddious he would not be able to forsee things.
  15. FOTR-AOTC-TTT_2002 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 20, 2002
    star 3
    The point that EmpireMovies was trying to make with that Homing Beacon excerpt is that *Sidious* and *The Emperor* are 2 different starwars vilains. What a bold statement !! :D

    Well, of course this point is not valid :

    In the DVD audio documentary, Lucas himself (you know, the guy who was reportedly involved in creating this starwars thing, or maybe it was his clone ?) says that he wanted Sidious to be introduced as an hologram in TPM, because that's the way he was introduced in ESB.
    In ESB, we see an hologram of The Emperor (or is it the Emperor's clone ? Or twin brother ? Or a shape shifter ? Or a clone of Valorum's grand son disguised as the Emperor ?).

    So, according to Lucas, the Emperor is Darth Sidious.

    So, if people really want to discuss something, it would be whether the Emperor is Palpatine or not :

    Me, George Lucas, Rick Mc Callum, Ian Mc Diarmid and millions of fans think he is. ;) ;)

    Some people think that Palpatine is just a clone who will get killed when Sidious finally decides to rule his Empire ... Or is it Palpatine, secretly trained in the ways of the Sith, who kills Sidious ?? :( :(



  16. foxbatkllr Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 2001
    star 6
    Here's a picture I made showing that Palpatine will get yellow eyes by ROTJ:

    One Yellow Eye
  17. GRDJA Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2002
    The are not clones. Or athleast I dont think GL would do something that naive. They could be two sperate villans. Sidius being a Sith and Palp maybe later learning the lightnig zap. Why? We know that something horrible is going to turn Anakin to the dark side. Most likely , almost certanly, Padme`s death. And afcourse bad guys will kill her. Remember what happened with Tuscans. Anakin flips out, kills Dooku and Sidius and helps his secret mentor Palpatine create the empire. No way Palp is Sid clone. Bad guyes kill Padme, twins survive, Annakin doesent know that and eradicates Sith. I`ll alow a possibility that Palpatine is Sidious, Anakin kills Dooku, goes after Sid but is unable to defeat him but has used darkside in proces of fightnig Sid and Dooku and becomes Darth Vader.
  18. pigskanfly Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2002
    star 1
    is it not yet painfully obvious that sidious is palpatine? the subtle hints in episode 1, the subtle hints and dooku's speech to obi-wan in episode 2. if u dont no wut "subtle hints" im tokkin bout, watch a little closer. In the Qui-Gon funeral scene in episode I, when yoda and mace are talkin:
    M:"there is no doubt the mysterious warrior was a sith."
    Y:"Yes, but always two there are, a master and an apprentice."
    M:"But which one was destroyed? The master or the apprentice?"
    (camera pans over to padme (semi-relevant in Anakin's fall), Anakin (the next apprentice), and finally palpatine (THE master). Secondly, the way palpatine acts in episode II. He cuts off Padme, creates the clone army (they scream stormtroopers) and their transports scream star destroyers. The same guards, the way he has anakin as an apprentice as well. The way Anakin is sent off without the guidance of his master in order to make him more sensitive to the feelings a jedi should be without.
  19. BLK27 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2002
    I am going to present one more though about sidious and palpatine that supports them possibly being differenty people namely palpatine being a clone of sidious. Now dont take this the wrong way for now I believe that they are the same person but i wish only to present this for though.

    I bring up sifo-dyas.

    In the early drafts of ATOC, his name was spelled Sido-Dyas , not Sifo-Dyas. This alone makes me think it is Sidious.

    Here's what I think. Sifo-Dyas becomes Sidious. That much is obvious from the name. Why isn't it as simple as Sidious giving the Kaminoans a fake name and pretending to be a Jedi Master? Because, according to the Jedi, Sifo-Dyas *was* a real jedi, who was killed *before* Episode One. (Remember the discussion between Kenobi, Windu, and Yoda? "I thought he was killed long before that." Obi-Wan meant "long before 10 years ago", in context; the Clone Army order was placed roughly ten years before AOTC, right about the time of TPM.) So Sifo-Dyas fakes his death and becomes Sidious/Palpatine. Or does he?

    Ya see, here's the crazy thing I've been thinking. Sidious isn't Palpatine. Like i said i think for now that papatine and sidious are the same person. But there's this little nagging doubt. And the cloning thing, plus this Sifo-Dyas: Ex-Jedi turn of events has made me wonder. Sifo-Dyas, before he became a Darth, or even after, could've had himself cloned. Sidious *is* all about deception. Palpatine is his clone, an altered one- Which is why the Jedi council doesn't recognize him as their resurrected commrade. Palpatine, strong in the Force by sheer genetics (he'd have the same level of Midichlorians as Sifo-Dyas) or maybe not, is the front man, handling all the politics, being a handy decoy. It throws new light on that discussion Yoda and Mace Windu have in the end of TPM: "Always two there are: Master and Apprentice." "Yes...But which one have we destroyed?" (Something to that effect.)
    Look at the facts: Sifo-Dyas: Not just an alias for Sidious. This is confirmed by the Jedi saying he was a real Jedi. Count Dooku: Didn't know about the Clone army. Sifo-Dyas: Obviously the ex-name of Darth Sidious. So: Sifo-Dyas is Sidious. Sidious would be recognizable to the Jedi if he ever showed his face in public. So: Palpatine is not Sidious. I'm writing all this as a hypothetical thing, though, remember.

    Plus, Lucas loves to throw in those twists and surprises. Sure, it seems obvious that Sidious IS Palpatine. Why hasn't he been completely revealed as such? Do you actually think that that will shock any viewer, fan or not, when Sidious says "I'm Palpatine! Boo! Gotcha!" in Ep III? Probably not. People will be going, "Okaaaaay....Tell me something I don't know now." "Luke, I am your father" shocked audiences. Yoda fighting like he did, even fighting at all, elated and shocked nearly anyone who was spoiler-free.
    Luke and Leia brother and Sister. The Death Star already in the works, and being made by the aliens who built the battle droids. Count Dooku being Qui-Gon's old master, and Yoda's old apprentice. Lucas throws in many literary twists. So just prepare yourself for any contingency. Sidious...Well, his identity hasn't been confirmed IN THE MOVIES yet. Keep that in mind.
  20. foxbatkllr Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 2001
    star 6
    This debate is STILL going?? Geez I thought we definitively ended this thing a week ago. Palps=Sidious! Sheesh!
  21. Tricky Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2001
    star 5
    It's 8:36ish, and THAT proves that Palpatine is Darth Sidious. 1 man.
  22. CIDLORD Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2001
    star 3
    Well, as I wrote in another post (there are some variations here), these are my thoughts.

    Things that makes me think that Palpatine IS Sidious: [face_plain]

    -In TPM, Palpatine wants to be Chancellor. He sounds very greedy of power. So he's a potential dictator. [face_devil]



    -In the same episode, he gives a rather angry look when Amidala wants to return to Naboo, "Stay here, where it's safe!" (or "Stay here, where I want!"?) ;)


    -He seems to be in league along Mas Amedda at the Senate (pay attention at the "Excuse me, chancellor.." and "This is a crisis" , scenes). :confused:



    -"I have the Senate bogged down in procedures".. "Queen Amidala is young and naive" . How Sidious controls the Senate, and how he knows Amidala? Cause he's Palpatine? :confused:


    -In AOTC, when he's with Anakin, Palpatine walks just like The Emperor when he's moving towards Luke after the first lightning (watch his hands). Not to mention all his praise to Anakin.. [face_devil]



    -"But which one was destroyed, the master or the apprentice?" (Palpatine's face) :confused:


    -Dooku's revelation about the Sith controling the Senate. [face_shocked]



    -Almost every line of Palpatine in AOTC (specially "I love democracy" ). He's a perfect politician.. :cool:



    -His chin, nose, voice and mouth... [face_blush]


    Things that make think that Palpatine IS NOT Sidious: :D


    -Isn't it ridiculous that a guy wears a hood and makes a deep voice when he's not pretending to be a good guy? 8-}


    -It's just TOO obvious... [face_blush]


    Personal opinion:


















































    Palpatine IS NOT Sidious..

    :D



  23. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    [image=http://216.40.249.192/mysmilies/contrib/anym/hanged.gif]

    ;)


    Palpatine is Sidious.
  24. CIDLORD Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2001
    star 3

    "WE'LL SEE"

    (Dooku's quote) ;)
  25. SithShadow Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2001
    star 1
    I don't think Sidious is Palpatine because it is too simple, my sister could see it and AoTC was he first full SW movie that she has seen. I think Palpatine is a clone. There i said it because in about three years one of us will be right and the other will be wrong and the one who is right will get to rub it in the losers face! And its very true what CIDLORD/Dooku said, "We'll see"
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