Discussion in 'Games: RPG & Miniatures' started by NJOfan215, Mar 22, 2005.
Legacy is blasphemy in my opinion. A pirate Jedi? Come on.
okeydokey, I'm not after stats per sÃ© (but may well be after i get the answers i need), i'm after d6 stats for Page, of pages commandos, for an adventure i'm looking to set between ESB and RotJ.
If anyone can help that'd be awesome, either a website or the title of a book their in would do fine (but i may have to ask for them too if i don't have the book )
While i would love tohelp, i know nothing about d6. Maybe try posting an entirely new thread on this. You mihgt get the atention of one of the people who knows d6 but doesn't read this thread.
Does anyone have Star Wars Gamer #9? I need stats for Wes Janson.
Just thought I would let you all know that the latest "official" stats for the Solo twins is up on the WOTC web page.
really? Wow, i will go check it out.
I see they have some bastila stats up as well.
I think the jacn and jaina stats are ok for the time around star by star, but they are a bit under powered for the end of the njo, not to mention legacy of the force.
Judging by the article, I think they're as of Balance Point. Also, they appear to be revised versions of their NJO sourcebook stats (Jacen - JG 9; Jaina - JG 6/Sol 1/JA 2), which, in the case of Jacen, were "as of Balance Point."
yeah, once i took a closer look at then i realised they were the same level and class dist as the balance point ones.
I've been trying to figure out what to do with jacen and verger in light of the events in betrayal. I think i have an updated version of jaina in mind. I also have some stats basicly cooked up for the handmiaden, but i don't know where i put them. I also think i may draw up level 20 stats for kol skywalker. I may even make up some ones for ben, but i'm not sure how if i want him to be a jg or a jc.
my tentative plans for jaina: Jg 6/ja 3/ feild officer(d20 future) 3/jedi investigator 2
For jacen, i'm thinking about making him a jc 10/fa 3/jm 1
Instead of getting the normal force training class ability fro the force adept, i'm going to give him something i call exotic force training, which will be a chioce of various force class features plus some force like feats or class features from D&D and d20 modern/future. Once things become clearer i may add a level of sith acolyte.
for kol i'm thinking jg 6/jwm 5/jm 7/j instructor 2 or jg 6/jwm 3/jm 7/j instructor 4.
I have some sith verger stats started but i don't have them in front of me.
Sounds good for Jacen; however, I'd probably replace a few, or just add in, some levels of White Current Adept, too.
I don't think Jacen would have levels in anything other than jedi classes and force adept. He doesn't believe in the white current way of life, and this is where d20 is very limited. He's obviously learnt the skills, but in d20 game terms, i'd give him a level in Aing-tii Monk, a level in White Current adept, and a level in some other force using thing he's spent time with, but ONLY so that certain abilities would be available to him.
I think what NJO12-thingy (sorry ) is going to do is use those force training feats for the Force Adept to instead give him SQ's/special abilities for other Force Using Traditions.
Depending on what happens in the rest of the Legacy of the Force, I don't know if I'd give him the disciple of the unifying Force feat,
Well, Jacen doesen't exactly believe in the Jedi way of life, but he has Jedi classes.
But you're right, though: d6 is far more suited to this type of situation.
Matt's basicly got my idea.
I have toyed with giving him white current, but i decided against it for a few reasons.
Did you have any ideas yet for what to do for Epic levels? I know it's been a while since we've talked about it last, but I've looked into it some since then.
Basically, I think the Forgotten Realms rules for Epic levels seems to be the best, most balanced way of raising a SW character past 20.
According to the rules, characters past 20 never gain level-based attribute score increases or feats and can either take an "effective character level", a +1 to an attribute score, +1 attack bonus (number of attacks can never go past 4), or +1 Spell level per level.
Base Saves and Hit Points never increase.
I think this is a better way to go than with some of the rules from the Epic Level Handbook, because a lot of those rules are made to deal with and obtain the epic level feats, class bonuses, epic skills uses, etc. And as far as I know, it should still allow the use of a lot of the Epic Level Handbook's Epic Feats, too.
I never actualy looked at the forgoten realms epic rules, but i think i remember reading something like that somewhere. I think those are pretty a pretty good way to go about epic levels for star wars. One problem that i still don't have figured out is how do we decided what level some of the charcters are going to be. Like yoda is 870 and has been a jedi all that time, and he still only barely beat dooku (or perhaps tied) and tied plapatine (or perhaps lost). I would think yoda would be a higher level then both of those guys. Also what do we do with characters like obi-wan, do we still keep him at level 15, or do we scale him up a bit.
I think maybe a varient rule where you have to do 10 levels in the starting classes before you can take a prestiege class and then making the level cap 30 instead of 20 might be interesting. I'm not really sure about this type of thing since i've only played a few times, but i think this could be nice because it might stop lower level characters like the that level 9 wookie weapon master that one of the other guys was talking about in another thread from messing things up in the begining of a game and allow the characters to grow more then they nomraly would.
I've also been toying with a few other ideas. I was thinking about adding a jedi grand master sq, i think it should be kind of like the jedi knight bonus feat, but in order to qualify for it, you must be level 20, have at least 18 jedi levels, and be the leader of the jedi order. Luke and yoda would be the only people to qualify for it so far.
A far fetched idea that i had was to redo some character stats adding in the d20 modern starting classes. Basicly all of the starting classes in star wars are things that you normaly don't start off life doing.
As far as Jacen goes, considering his affinity for animals, anyone ever considered giving him some levels as a Beastwarden?
Yeah but i don't have the ultimate alien anthology, ans i don't think that the animal thing has been a maror enought factor in his character recently to warrent including it.
Bascially, NJOfan, I think most of the character stats only need some tweaking, really. It's obvious, in my opinion, that many of the skill modifiers or class levels are off the mark, but don't necessarily think we need to comepletely rework everything.
Now many role players don't share the view that certain charcters -- such as Luke, Yoda, the Emperor, Mace Windu, Freedon Nadd, Marka Ragnos, etc. -- need to be epic levels to begin with, that level 20 in and of itself is high enough. But I honestly just can't see it. For example, take Luke's stats "as of the beginning of the NJO" in the RCRB. Though I think it's very obvious that the stats were well thought out and a lot time was, apparently, put into them there's still some questionable things in the Force skills, such as Move Object +10. Without using any variant rules, that gives him a 50-50 chance at pulling off the Yoda-X-wing-trick while taking ten on his skill check. (The same for Sidious in ROTS, especially if he was using split force on those senate booths) I personally just don't think that's very accurate given what we've seen in the EU and even, to a certain extent, the movies: Luke actually started to move the X-wing out of the swamp a little even when he only a learner!
The most obvious point of reference for this argument would be, of course, Dark Empire -- where we see Luke bring down AT-AT's and the like. But interestingly enough, I was reading on JD Wiker's forum and he actually mentioned that while working on certain parts of the RPG that they pretty much IGNORED Darke Empire, because -- from their point of view -- it was filled with ridiculous, super-hero uses of the Force that couldn't translate to the RPG. (Which has a certain amount of logic to it, but hey, WEG managed)
It explained a lot about some of the stats and Force powers. (Perhaps this is the reason we've yet to see the Dark Side version of Doppleganger?)
Even excluding DE, Zahn even demonstrates in HOT that Luke could rend starship gun emplacements... IF he wanted to; and Zahn is well known for what many seem to see as a more moderate, and more movie-like use of the Force.
Force points could very well compensate for the examples of the "extreme," especially in DE, but in the case of HOT, it certainly didn't seem like it was the case.
What I'm saying is that the "effective character level" Epic option really seems to solve this. It doesn't render huge amounts of vitality, feats, attack bonus, etc.
As for some characters like Obi-wan, I'm not too sure. He could probably use some slight tweaking as well. We see him in the movies, novels, comics, etc. as a brilliant lightsaber duelist, tactician, and powerful in the Force. I'm not sure if he'd even reach twenty, but if he did, I could easily see some attribute score increases and maybe a raise in his attack bonus.
I actually think Yoda would be a higher level than the Emperor, personally, do to his age. Sure the Dark Side offer quick rewards for it's servants, but does that necessarily translate into XP? The Emperor can keep up for several reasons:
- He uses the Force for attack with no reservations
- Dark Side powers (Yoda has to burn Force points just to block his Lightning!)
- He can easily call upon the Dark Side for extra Force Points
- He has knowledge of all the Jedi fightning techniques as well as Sith techniques
But putting Yoda at a few levels higher than Sidious with less combat intensive classes, such as ECL's in Scholar and Instructor, won't put Yoda leagues above Sidious, or Dooku, combat-wise -- not at all, really. Besides, as I recall in the movie, didn't Yoda win the lightsaber portion of their fight anyway?
I'd be the first to say that the Epic level benefits need to be reserved for only the best of the best, perhaps with some sort of special requirement like those mentioned the Epic Level Handbook; however, after seeing some of the things in the Unifying Force and the Dark Nest trilogy, lvl. 20 just won't cover it.
I haven't looked into d20 Modern much. It looks to be a pretty goo
Good post. I agree that most of the stats are fine. Making stats for the main characters is difficult becasue they are so multi-faceted. LUke is the perhaps the best pilot and duelest in the universe. I also like the effective character level idea that you are talking about. If i ever get some more free time i might try to build some one with it. If you cook anything up post it, i would like to check it out.
Thanks. In all honesty, d6 is really more suited to cover the the different SW characters from all angles, as it was purely free-form and skill-based, with no class restrictions regarding skill selections, and no limit on advancement.
And even though I think d6 is more suited to the SW universe, I still like d20, and wouldn't mind seeing it be able to keep up with the powerhouses like WEG was able to do.
I'm probably going to be working on some myself, I'll post them if I get some ideas.
yeah i'm curious about the d6 system, but i don't know anything about it.
Being invited here, I thought I'd throw my D20 Epic Levels opinions out.
I personally think that you honestly should incorporate something like them into the setting to compensate for the wildly disparate things we see in the setting on occasion. The Dark Emperor is an example of this sort of thing. He drains the power of billions, has his force storms, and looms as a gigantic threat to the universe. The collected power of a hundred Jedi joined together can throw a bunch of Star Destroyers.
I think some rules for "Overwhelming" power should be in place. The point when a Jedi ceases to be a Jedi but becomes a demigod.
Speaking of which, I don't actually recall any type of Drain Life power in the d20 books; however, there is Drain Force, which does some of what the WEG Drain Life power did: steal Force Points.
WOTC recently adapted a proximity chart for using powers at great distance, so that alleviates the 10m range problem for the "epic uses," but the power description is only for one person, once a week. Obviously not the type of effect the Emperor was getting from draining the life force of billions on Byss.
It's a shame in some respects that WOTC ignored Dark Empire when crafting the d20 system. While I greatly appreciate the fact that they put a great deal of effort into designing a balanced system for SW, simply put, not everything in SW should be balanced. JD Wiker, for example, commented on his personal forums that he was working on a Force Storm power for the Dark Side Sourcebook, but abandoned it because it was way too powerful. And other powers are seemingly nerfed because it would cause the game to become unbalanced, or be too effective on "Heroic" level characters, but it's the Dark Side! It's supposed to be extremely powerful! It's not an accurate reflection of the SW universe, in my opinion. The Dark Side is supposed to be seductive because of the power it brings, which is relatively missing in the d20 system. (The only perks of the Dark Side are the extra Force Point dice in early levels)
In the old WEG RPG, powers such as Force Lightning, Telekinetic Kill, Inure/Kill, and using TK to attack could, in many cases, assure survival -- and everytime you used them, the Dark Side gave you a boost afterward trying to seduce you -- but the cost of using those powers made it risky, too. I don't necessarily get the same feeling in d20.
With that said, I still really appreciate the creators being concerned enough to try and ensure balanced play.
As for finding a way to create rules for insane powers, such as Drain Life and Force Storms, it's tricky, because when the characters, or NPCs are that powerful things like that almost become more of a plot device than they do a skill check.
The "catastrophic" applications of power are going to be the hardest thing to substitute for, mainly because while we can rather easily use Forgotten Realms rules for Epic advancement, and Epic Feats from the Epic Level Handbook for accelerating combat, Force powers on that scale are on a whole different level.
I'm not sure if rules for things like that should be Epic Feats, Epic Skill uses, both, or SQs? Certain things would require something beyond just a higher possible skill check. Moving ISDs out an entire system is something that just couldn't always be subject to "Move Object." As Charles said, it's something that comepletely surpasses it entirely into god-like manipulation.
And thanks for stopping by, Charles.
Yeah man, stick around. We have a nice group of people over here.
Has anyone here been reading the star wars legacy comic book series? It's three issues in so far. Since it';s still very early in it's run i haven't tried to do stats on the characters since we really don't know a lot about them yet, but i have an idea of the basic design for some of them.
Darth Krayt: Fringer 3, Force adept 3, Dark side marauder 2, Sith A 2, Sith lord 10. I think fringer is a good choice for a base class for him. He seems to have a lot of hate toward the GA for it's handeling of the vong, which to suggest first hand experiance, the fringes of the galaxey were the first areas the vong conquered and as such were help by the vong the longest. Also he spent some time on korabin. I'm giving him FA since he obviously an use the force. I think he might have ended up living amoung the vong for a bit, found he could use the force started fighting them and turned to the dark side durring this time, hence the DM levles, then made his way to koriban and then became a sith.
Kol Skwalker: jg 6, jwm 4, jm 4, jedi instructor 4: Kol is portrayed as the leader of the jedi order during this time period. He also doesn't look that old, so i didn't make him level 20. Issues zero indicates that KOL is a skilled fighter and tactician. It also says that he preffers to stay at the jedi accademy instead of the jedi temple, so i gave him 4 levels of instructor.
Cade skywalker: JG 5, scoundral 3, BH 2: I'm not sure if i have him at too high a level, but he seemed to be fairly close to knight hood when the jedi accademy was taken down. Then he spends 7 years a s bounty hunter.