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The Official Jesus Q&A, Debate and Historical View thread

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Lord Bane, Apr 2, 2002.

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  1. Grand_Moff_Monkey

    Grand_Moff_Monkey Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 29, 2001
    For example, let's discuss the gospels. The absolute earliest date of reference to the gospels would be 90 years A.D. One lifetime?? I would think, taking the life expectancy at that time, that it would take 2-3, possibly even 4 generations to pass the information. Not necessarily what we would think to be direct observation of Jesus' activities.

    Personally I think all the gospels were written before 70 AD at the very, very latest. The reason I think that, is because all four gospels contain very detailed, very subtle references to Jerusalem. Now, Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD. Every single detail about Jerusalem in the gospels has been shown to be archaeologically accurate. If the gospels were written after this time, it is difficult to imagine that four seperate writers didn't make just one error concerning the city. This is harder to believe than an earlier date for the gospels.


    Also, remember that historically speaking, during this time period, a HIGH percentage of people were illiterate, meaning that the 'word' of Jesus was probably passed orally, which would lead to discrepancies/inaccuracies. He could have been invented in this time period for all we know, if not his 'legend' exaggerated. Think about how easily rumors spread these days, and get inflated easily, and we have means to find out the truth!.

    The church by 64 AD was experiencing wide-spread persecution under Emperor Nero. Burnings, being fed to the lions and other rather unpleasant things. This shows that the church of that time must have been very clear about their beliefs in Jesus. Therefore, even if the gospels were written after this time, it's very difficult to accept that this church would have accepted them if they weren't in accord with what they already believed.


    Humans didn't think as rational as they do now, there was much less reasoning/fact-finding as there is now, just because it was never possible; You had to take another person's word for things. Given that, what about Paganism?? If people in general would believe that spirits lived in trees, then what's to keep them from believing Jesus was some 'special' guy?? To me there is absolutely NO difference.

    I really don't think people have changed all that much. Paganism still exists, albeit in different forms, and Wicca is growing. The New Age movement is growing in Europe. The list goes on.

    I don't think that those living in New Testament times were somehow more gullible than people are today. The gospels are full of even Jesus' disciples doubting him. Thomas, for example, earned himself the nickname of the Doubter. The disciples lacked the faith to heal on various occasions. When Jesus fed 5,000 people with 5 loaves and 2 fish, we'd expect the disciples to know it was possible the next time. But when a group of 4,000 came - the disciples doubted that it was possible to feed them, even though it was less people than the previous time. Jesus' brothers thought he was out of his mind and that he couldn't perform miracles. No one believed him when he spoke about rising from the grave. A man came to Jesus as a last resort to heal his son. Jesus asked him if he belived he could do it and the man replied "Help me overcome my unbelief". And of course the Romans and the Jewish authorities rejected Jesus. These are just a few of many examples. I think people back then were just as sceptical and cynical as we are now.


    These are just my thoughts. Probably covered if not debunked in your books that you guys are talking about. One thing though, is that I was always under the belief that there was in fact no *official* Roman nor Hebrew record of Jesus exhisting.

    But what kind of "official" record could we reasonably expect there to be? Except for architecture, there exists hardly anything at all from this period.

     
  2. Vaderize03

    Vaderize03 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 25, 1999
    Jesus?

    He was a nice Jewish boy.

    If anybody ever found a sample of his DNA, do you think he should be cloned?? That would sure ruffle some feathers, methinks...

    V-03
     
  3. Chris2

    Chris2 Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 11, 1998
    The earliest known evidence of Jesus appears to be the letters of Paul. The gospels follow shortly thereafter, around 70 A.D or so. It's possible that many of the prophecies in the gospels were in fact added due to the paranoia of Rome at the time. As mentioned earlier, Jesus's prophecy might have been referring to the destruction of Jerusalem, and also "Revelation" might have been referring to the Roman empire. "Babylon", the mysterious city in Revelation, was a Jewish nickname for the Roman Empire way back.
     
  4. Chris2

    Chris2 Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 11, 1998
    As for cloning Jesus-isn't there some DNA(Blood) on the shroud?
    BTW one more things about the end times:It's really impossible to predict them, since REVELATION is so vague. When big-time disasters or raptures start to happen, *then* start worrying.
    I'm not sure it'll be this era. Although this era has had pestilences, but far less than in earlier eras...take the Black Death for example. Same with famines, there haven't been any major famines since the 50's.
    Interestingly Revelation DOES refer to apparentally a destructive war against Israel. Although this could refer to the 70-81 A.D conflict, it could also refer to what might happen in the near future. Many Arab countries-Syria, Iraq, and Egypt-have been very unhappy with Israeli treatment of Palestine. It's possible they might attack.
     
  5. R2D2-PENA

    R2D2-PENA Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Remember that also in the Bible it states that the end will come after Israel is reinstituted as a nation.

    Curiously the Bible predicted that Israel would be dispersed and that later the people would return to their land, and that happened about 2000 years ago and then nation of Israel returned to their land about 54 years ago.

    I can't remember the verses where that is stated but if i can i will post them later.
     
  6. cydonia

    cydonia Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 6, 2001
    The funny thing is they called it Israel, not something else. How did that happen? Where does America fit into the whole propehcey thingie? I would think the majority of persecuted religons would consider America a great place. The Brits did years and years ago. Is the word America in the Bible?
     
  7. Chris2

    Chris2 Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 11, 1998
    Nope. Unless you go by the "Code" theory, which I don't think really fits(It's basically trying to apply Mathematical mumbo-jumbo to the bible).
    There is however a reference to a " Mystery Babylon", a mysterious city or country that is basically the root of all evil or something like that. It's mentioned in Chapters 17-18 or Revelation. Apparentally some think it's New York, and that 18 refers to September 11th, in which Babylon-apparentally an important center of "riches" for the world-is laid waste in one hour. However, unless the prophecies are reversed, the destruction of Babylon is suppossed to come *after* all the other bad stuff-superdisasters that sound a lot like Meteor strikes, volcanic eruptions, nukes and superplagues(Biological warfare?). As well as the Antichrist. Since none of this has come to pass, we can assume that 17-18 probably wasn't referring to September 11th. Add to that other passages--

    1)Apparentally Mystery Babylon is near one of the Middle Eastern rivers, therefore it *cannot* be in America.

    2)It seems to indicate that Mystery Babylon would be COMPLETELY destroyed. However, Not all of New York was destroyed.

    3)Apparentally Babylon has a "whore" or something--an evil woman who sides with the antichrist. Some have stated the Statue of Liberty is the "Whore", but according to the bible, she wears Scarlet, which the Statue doesn't wear. Hilary perhaps?


    There are a few other quesses on the nature of Mystery Babylon.

    1)It represents America as a whole. Soon after the massive disasters and rise of the antichrist, America will be destroyed, and this will cause the entire world to suffer economic collapse-the Bible seems to indicate something of that nature.

    2)It represents Iraq-which stands upon the ruins of Babylon itself. A country which we have some problems with.

    3)The Jews often referred to Rome as "Babylon" due to the fact that, like the Babylonians, it persecuted them. Rome was the dominant power at the time. Going from a purely historical and skeptic perspective, this is perhaps the most likely explanation. Therefore Revelation really refers to a Fall of Rome.


    Anyway, Revelation is perhaps the most confusing and problematic section of the bible. Many people over the last two millenia have attempted to adopt it's prophecies to their current era, but the world never ended. It's possible "Revelation" is meant to be a parable of some kind, even. It's hard to say, honestly.
     
  8. Chris2

    Chris2 Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 11, 1998
    Here's the apparent Israel prophecy:


    1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country,
    and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I
    will shew thee:
    2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee,
    and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:


    Ezekiel 38:4 And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws,
    and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen,
    all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company
    with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:

    Ezekiel 38:5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with
    shield and helmet:

    Ezekiel 38:6 Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the
    north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.

    Ezekiel 38:7 Be thou prepared, and prepare for thyself, thou, and
    all thy company that are assembled unto thee, and be thou a guard unto
    them.

    Ezekiel 38:8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter
    years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the
    sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of
    Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of
    the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

    Ezekiel 38:9 Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be
    like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many
    people with thee.


    Ezekiel 38:17 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have
    spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which
    prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against
    them?

    Ezekiel 38:18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog
    shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my
    fury shall come up in my face.

    Ezekiel 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I
    spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land
    of Israel;

    Ezekiel 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the
    heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that
    creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the
    earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown
    down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to
    the ground.

    Ezekiel 38:21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all
    my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against
    his brother.

    Ezekiel 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with
    blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many
    people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones,
    fire, and brimstone.

    Ezekiel 38:23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I
    will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I
    am the LORD.
    Ezekiel 39:4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and
    all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto
    the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be
    devoured.
    Ezekiel 39:5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken
    it, saith the Lord GOD.

    Ezekiel 39:6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that
    dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.

    Ezekiel 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my
    people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more:
    and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

    Ezekiel 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD;
    this is the day whereof I have spoken.

    ----------------------

    As you can see, it's a little hard to make out.
     
  9. sleazo

    sleazo Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 13, 2001
    Yes its vague like Nostradamus, people can basically use these type of things to "prove" anything they want. If we start believing in predictions we might as well start believing in the tooth fairy, the easter bunny, etc....
    Here's a prediction somebody on these boards will try prove some prediction to me as evidence....
    spooky huh?
     
  10. Chris2

    Chris2 Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 11, 1998
    Here's a listing of failed attempts to predict the Apocalypse:


    http://www.chrisnelson.net/
     
  11. Darth Geist

    Darth Geist Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 1999
  12. Chris2

    Chris2 Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 11, 1998
    I recently found out that Josepheus mentions John The Baptist and James, one of the early church fathers, a disciple and apparentally the half-brother of Jesus. Does this support the historical account?
     
  13. Insane Anakin

    Insane Anakin Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 1999
    I think the biggest historical misconception about Jesus is the whole walking on water thing.

    Only a rare species of lizard can do that!

    And then there's the water to wine fable.
     
  14. sleazo

    sleazo Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 13, 2001
    Josephus is not a reliable source, as has been stated earlier in this thread
     
  15. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    I think the biggest historical misconception about Jesus is the whole walking on water thing.

    Only a rare species of lizard can do that!

    And then there's the water to wine fable.


    Would you be so kind as to elaborate, if possible?
     
  16. Insane Anakin

    Insane Anakin Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 1999
    I think it is a rather black and white issue.

    NOBODY CAN WALK ON WATER OR TURN WATER INTO WINE.

     
  17. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    Is God incapable of doing such things?

    Jesus Christ was God incarnate on this earth, according to Christian belief.
     
  18. Insane Anakin

    Insane Anakin Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 1999
    Let's stick to things that can be proven, mmmkay?

    Not silly mythology.
     
  19. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    You'll have to excuse those of us who see it as more than "silly mythology," and refer to it as something more serious. If you dislike that idea, you might be better off in another thread, or perhaps another forum altogether :).
     
  20. Insane Anakin

    Insane Anakin Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 1999
    This is a Senate Floor forum. Not a "Believers in GOD Only!!1!!1" forum.

    Different viewpoints are tolerated and accepted. Surprisingly intolerant, you are.

     
  21. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    I believe in respect for each person's belief. If I have expressed anything to the contrary, I apologize :).

    Now then... back to the discussion.
     
  22. Blue_Yoda_Forever

    Blue_Yoda_Forever Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    May 23, 2002
    Who is tired of everyone quoting John 3:;16 while omitting other important verses
     
  23. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    So share some of those verses.
     
  24. Insane Anakin

    Insane Anakin Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 1999
    The Bible needs to release a special edition. Bigger, longer, and uncut it would be.

    I don't want the heavily modified and altered version of today. I want the original, baby.

    Minus the in Hebrew part. ENGLISH.
     
  25. Kit'

    Kit' Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 1999
    INsane_ Anakin: The problem is, if it is in English, then it is already modified...there are lots of words that don't translate across languages and that if you do translate them to the closest appropriate word then you also lose an awful lot of the meaning...

    Kit
     
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