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TV Discussion The Official LACWAC Star Wars General Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV- Current and Future Shows' started by Dark Lord Tarkas, May 28, 2011.

  1. JoleeBee

    JoleeBee Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    May 25, 2011
    I wonder, how Palpatine issued Order 66 for GAR without the approval of the Senate and the Jedi High Council? Or it was part of the larger document containing over 9000 orders so senators and the Jedi fell asleep while they read it?
     
  2. Lugija

    Lugija Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2009
    Your instincts serve you well, there were many special orders. I think nobody thought they were ever going to be used. The Senate could actually give order 65 which would have removed Chancellor from the office.
    Wonder what would have happened when the Senate had tried to vote of that.
    Mas Amedda: Next in the agenda: We'll vote whether we should remove the Chancellor from the office.
    Nix Card: Now why should we do that, is there any proof of his Sith-dealings?
    Lott Dod: I suggest that we'll have a committee to investigate this.
    Bail Organa: We used the Hocuspocus(tm)-machine on his holograms, they match with ones of Darth Sidious.
    Burtoni: Now that doesn't prove anything, holos can be forged.
    Lott Dod: Let's blame Gunray, he should have emptied the recorders!
    (silence)
    Lott Dod: Natural instinct, sorry.
    Orn Free Taa: We should eat. Debating is much funnier with a full stomach.
    Mas Amedda: All in favor for nuna today?

    Wookieepedia has some of the orders.

    Bacara: Chancellor gave us the Order 66, we'll shoot you now.
    Ki-Adi-Mundi: Well, I'll give you the Order 65!
    Bacara: Can you do that? Can he do that?
    Trooper: I think no, you need a majority of the Senate for that.
    Bacara: But don't the Jedi technically outrank most of the senators?
    Trooper: I need to research this. The Jedi have pledged themselves to the Senate, that's what I know.
    Bacara: Yeah, but that makes them a part of the Senate, doesn't it? Nobody move, get me the Book of Laws. And someone tell those droids to stop shooting! We may need their tactical droid.
     
  3. JoleeBee

    JoleeBee Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    May 25, 2011
    "In the event of Jedi officers acting against the interests of the Republic"
    Jedi Officers acting against the interests of the Republic? They were drunk while reading this? How they can act against the ideal they have sworn to protect? How Chancellor put it through without anyone noticing? And how Clone Commanders accepted it from a shady person wearing a hood? And they even replied him (It will be done, my lord). My Lord? This is still the Republic, no lords. Possible explanation is that Clone Commanders were programmed to follow Chancellor's orders from birth (Calling him "My Lord" while he still isn't the Emperor).

    Palpatine: Commander Cody, the time has come. Execute Order 66.
    Cody: Who are you and what are you doing on this frequency?
    Palpatine: I'm the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic!
    Cody: Prove it!
    *Palpatine took off his hood*
    Cody: Good Lord! What is wrong with you old man?
    Palpatine: I'm the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic!
    Cody: No, you are some ugly freak pretending to be the Chancellor. And you know what, I'm going to report this to General Kenobi! Cody out.
    *Palpatine kills himself*
     
  4. Garth Maul

    Garth Maul Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 18, 2002
    Here's another question: do you think Yoda and Ben thought Luke had to kill Vader? Meaning, he had to kill him, there was no other way?
     
  5. Dark Lord Tarkas

    Dark Lord Tarkas Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 29, 2011
    I'd like to think that they were that open-minded, but taking the dialogue literally leaves little room to hope. When Luke says he can't kill his father Obi-Wan tells him that means the Emperor has already won. So yeah, my guess is Obi-Wan and Yoda were both convinced Vader could never turn away from the Dark Side and had to be killed.
     
  6. JM_1977

    JM_1977 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 23, 2011
    Here's a question, when the emperor told all the clones to execute order 66, it looked like he only contacted the superior officers like the captains and commanders. So how did all the other clones in the army find out about it??
     
  7. Dark Lord Tarkas

    Dark Lord Tarkas Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Isn't that what happens in real life? The civilian leaders give commands to the military leaders, and the military leaders give commands to the military.
     
  8. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    Palpatine didn't need to contact every single clone trooper in the army. All he needed to do is give the order to the commanders, and the commanders would give the order to the clones under his command(which can easily number in the thousands). The ordinary clone trooper would (and did) follow the order without hesitation.

    It's not like there are many clone troopers out there operating by themselves, without being led by a commander, captain, sergeant, etc.

    Eventually, it went something like this:

    Sidious gave the order to every clone commander in the Grand Army.
    The commanders gave the order to their majors.
    The majors gave the order to their captains.
    The captains gave the order to their lieutenants.
    The lieutenants gave the order to their sergeants.
    The sergeants gave the order to their squad of clone troopers.

    This is how the chain of command works.

    Eventually every clone in the Grand Army would know the order was given. It could happen very quickly if they're all hooked up to the same comlinks, which they usually were.
     
  9. Swashbucklingjedi

    Swashbucklingjedi Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2010
    I wonder what non-clones thought about sudden order66- like admirals, captains and generals that are non-jedi and non-clone?

    Since Palpy contacted clones directly most admirals may have been confused "What the clones are doing now?" but probably someone Palpy himself or someone else (Mas Amedda?) told them the situation pretty quickly and those who rejected order- were also ordered to be killed by clones or imprisoned.....

    Palpy was able to execute order66 without acceptance of the senate because senate did accept that way to act before- it was part of "executive powers" Chancellor held- to decide alone about such things- senate would've been unable to act so fast anyway, if jedi really would betray the republic and of course jedi council couldn't decide about their own execution- just like order 65 didn't ask that from chancellor, but Palpy cunningly made orders different, order 65 needs senate's acceptance....
    There is also order to turn against the senators and that need no acceptance of senate of course-
    jedi accepted that order because they had no intention to turn against the republic- or then they were not told about such emergency orders in the first place.....
    Another thing may be that anti-jedi ideals spread in the senate and many senators feared and/or distrusted jedi so they easily accepted order to eradicate them- in democracy majority is enough so not all senators need to accept it if chancellor and majority does......

    To that above CT said- that is how it should go yes- but Cody seems to give only "Blast him!" order- no mention of order 66 to another clones- did they receive the same transmission automatically then? With SW-technology wouldn't be too hard to believe they all the time hear important messages commander receives- or then Palpy ordered someone else (Mas Amedda, Sly Moore, some officer to whom he secretly revealed his plan before... Tarkin?)to take care about informing to lesser clones/ officers and personally wanted to communicate only with important commanders- destroying Obi/Yoda/Ki-Adi and Plo for example was important but we don't see if Neyo for example receives his orders straight from Palpatine or from someone else......
     
  10. JoleeBee

    JoleeBee Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    May 25, 2011
    But that doesn't explain why Clone Commanders adress to Palpy as "My Lord". I stick with the clone-programming theory, Order 66 was part of their training on Kamino. Well, I think that originally their training was meant to teach clones defend themselfs against the Sith and being able to kill them (it is pretty explained in zombie-clones episode when they were hunting Barris - they lured her into a trap - and one zombie-clone mentioned that only clones know how to kill (incapacitate) a Jedi).
     
  11. Swashbucklingjedi

    Swashbucklingjedi Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Well do we even see them calling him by any other name- maybe they address him as "Chancellor" before that i don't remember now...... or maybe he was "my lord" even as chancellor- clones tend to use odd and even contradictory terms about their jedi generals- "general"/"master"/"Sir"(even from women- but still sometimes "mistress" as 99 addresses Shaak Ti)

    so calling chancellor "my lord" may be normal and even if chancellor would tell them to do something else than betray jedi they would address "Yes my lord".....
    or then it is part of the order 66 Palpatine may have bribed some kaminoans to reprogram additional actions to minds of clones that come out with "order 66" and change their behaviour- cannot say but they seem to turn more "evil" after that.... Cody changes his tone also- he sounds more strict and cruel even towards his own men later.....

    At least I've never even questionised that- but we might see retcon in TCW to explain this further- in fact i think senate and perhaps even jedi accepted about some emergency protocols to be trained/reprogrammed to the clones but Palpy may have added there some extra by manipulating and/or bribing and threatening certain kaminoans or other persons overseeing the training of clones- so "order66" accepted by the senate was not so simple as they thought- but jedihate and ultimate loyalty to the Emperor Palpatine was reprogrammed in secret........

     
  12. JoleeBee

    JoleeBee Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    May 25, 2011
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09n0qd_n4c0 - "Yes, my lord."
    Order 66 is probably a code words to "unlock" Clone Commander's training they had recieved subconsciously (while being in trance of some sort). Thus, Order 66 can be about everything. I hope we will see it when Rex will get his promotion to Commander.
     
  13. JM_1977

    JM_1977 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 23, 2011
    ^ I always thought captains and commanders were basically pretty much the same rank or close to each other.
     
  14. Swashbucklingjedi

    Swashbucklingjedi Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Then you thought wrong- at least according to EU they are not even close to each other- commander is also not a rank but term used from many ranks there is marshal, senior and regimental commanders etc.- TCW-material messed up whole clone rank-thing though since Rex is 'Captain' and said to be commander of the 501st battalion( WTF?:confused: ) while captains command companies, 501st is a legion and a battalion is different thing altogether:-B

    I like EU-ranking better and i don't buy "Rex is leader of the 501st"-thing at all- nothing in episodes actually say so either- he is member of the 501st yes- but he should be only boss of the Torrent Company- which is either elite group later expanded to be entire legion or then simply one company belonging to 501st already commanded by Appo or his predecessor- not Rex damn it- he should be senior commander at least if he commands legion and he is a captain- also he has couple of guys with him in 'his 501st'- there is no that legion we see marching in the jedi temple- legions are huge but companies are not that huge.....

    This is how it should go:

    Grand Army?all systems armies- led by Supreme Chancellor Palpatine as Commander-in-Chief. (total number of clones is not clearly told anywhere)
    Systems Army?2 Sector Armies (294,912 troops) led by a High Jedi General like Mace Windu or Obi-Wan etc council members
    Sector Army?4 corps (147,456 troops) led by a Senior Jedi General. yep there is different jedi generals too:p I guess these are masters still...
    Corps?4 legions (36,864 troops) led by a clone marshal commander and a Jedi General. for example Aayla and Bly etc.
    Legion/Brigade?4 regiments (9,216 troops) led by a senior clone commander and a Jedi General.
    Regiment?4 battalions (2,304 troops) led by a clone trooper commander, clone regimental commander, and a Jedi Commander.
    Battalion?4 companies (576 troops) led by a major. (term 'battalion' seems to be well messed up though)
    Company?4 platoons (144 troops) led by a captain. This should be Rex's position- not too great- he commands Torrent Company though so that makes sense...
    Platoon?4 squads (36 troops) led by a lieutenant. (like Thire was in Ambush)
    Squad?9 soldiers led by a sergeant. - corporal is probably second in command of the squad

    so Colt being Commander of the "Rancor Battalion" or "Rex being captain of the legion/battalion" makes absolutely no sense with this- but well if writers would bother to follow internal logic it would be clearer but they just use terms that sound cool instead of thinking In-universe logic.....


     
  15. ImNotAStarWarsFanboy

    ImNotAStarWarsFanboy Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 25, 2011
    Here's something I've been pondering over the last few days.

    Ok so it has been established in the films that Jedi are forbidden to have relationships/be in love/form attachments, which in turn suggests they cannot have kids. Despite this, there have been several accounts in the EU of Jedi lineages, whereby there have been several generations of one family all serving in the Jedi Order.

    While I generally prefer the celibate monk image portrayed in the movies, I do have to wonder; if all Jedi are forbidden to have children and pass on their Force-sensitivity to the next generation, then surely there would be an increasingly scarce population of Force-sensitive individuals in the galaxy right? Why haven't these Force wielders died out? The basic theory of Natural Selection would suggest that the Force wielders in any given population would have the best chance of survival and therefore the best chance to pass on their superior genes. But if they refuse or are refused the opportunity to mate and pass on said genes, how does the supply of new Force wielders stay sufficient and ample? I can't believe it's something like a mutation in non-Force wielders, because in that case this mutation would have to happen a whole lot for every time a new Force-sensitive child is born. The non-Force sensitives are the only individuals that can reproduce, so I can't see how 2 non-Force sensitive individuals can genetically produce offspring with an affinity for the Force.

    Now, of course this doesn't take into account those Force sensitives that don't get taken up into the Jedi Order, or those who are expelled, who will then be free to pass on their affinity to succeeding generations. However, I cannot imagine that this number would be that high, given that 1) the Jedi have a complete list of every future Jedi candidate in the galaxy, and therefore will be unlikely to miss any; and 2) they would be wary of letting anyone slip through their fingers for the fear that they would abuse their gift, or worse, fall to the Dark Side and pose a threat to the Jedi.

    This also doesn't consider the very real possibility of Jedi going against the code and having children, whether with another Jedi or someone else. However, given how Anakin and Padme's relationship is portrayed in the films, I would doubt that many Jedi would be proud of their sins, or be willing to come out and offer their own children up to be trained, as this would show that they broke the code. And they can't lie about it and claim their children aren't actually their's, because the Jedi would easily be able to detect such lies and that could also build up feelings of resentment in the children. They could train them in private but again, the fear of being caught would discourage many.

    Does anyone have any explanations for this conundrum? Logically speaking, and barring an epidemic of random genetic mutations, the Jedi Order should have died out millennia before the PT came around.
     
  16. Lugija

    Lugija Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2009
    I'm afraid that you have only one answer for your questions, and two versions of that.
    Short version of the answer: Monkey-Lizard did it.
    Long version: You have to take into account that the Force is not just inside us. It also surrounds us. The ways of the Force are inscrutable.
    You can start by looking into genetics. Take bodies and check their every cell, count everything, mark all the differences down into little pieces of paper, and realize that the amount of midichlorians is in direct relation to the potential in the Force. Run naked at the streets yelling "Eureka!"
    Come back and start testing different things. How can the child have so many midichlorians if his/her parents don't? That makes no sense! After some years of research you suddenly get an idea. "What if Force-sensitivity isn't byproduct of the midichlorians, but the midichlorians are the byproduct of Force-sensitivity?" After two nights of sleep, that idea starts to be more and more possible. But what then makes someone sensitive to the Force? Is the Force itself sentient? Does it really "penetrate us, surround us and bind the universe together?"
    After thinking the matter through and through, studying different views of the Force and spending a summer as an acolyte to the all-mighty Monkey-Lizard you finally see the light and decide that there are better ways to spend life and start nitpicking about imaginary worlds on forums.
     
  17. Garth Maul

    Garth Maul Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 18, 2002
    There is also the strong possibility that many Force-sensitive beings go through their entire lives without realizing they have Force potential, have offspring, and then their children or great-grandchildren or whatever are discovered to be Force sensitive.

    Didn't Ki-Adi Mundi have a family because there was some strong need for it?

    Also, wasn't Obi-Wan almost sent to some Farming Corps or something because he couldn't cut it as a Jedi? He's still obviously Force sensitive and could have had children.
     
  18. ImNotAStarWarsFanboy

    ImNotAStarWarsFanboy Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 25, 2011
    Hmm, maybe. But I thought it was implied that the Jedi know every potential future Jedi in the galaxy, or Force sensitive children if you'd prefer the dialogue from the Holcron trilogy, and thereby it would be practically impossible for anyone to go through their lives unaware that they were Force sensitive because the Jedi would be hot on their tail trying to scoop them up into the Order.

    Yes there is the possibility that those expelled or who left would have children and thus spawn the next generation of Jedi, but as I've said, that'd be a pretty low number considering the Jedi are pretty good at brainwashing and the vast majority of the Jedi stay in the Order until they die. The number of ex-Jedi and their ability to produce more Force sensitive children just doesn't match up proportionately in my mind to the huge demand for them. Basic supply vs demand theory, thank you A-level economics :D

    I can't get behind the "midichlorians did it" theory because I never liked the idea of midichlorians and it just sounds like a dumb cop-out argument. I can't suspend disbelief when logic dictates that unless every Jedi is living secret double lives where they're going at it constantly in the sack, or there happens to be an amazing string of coincidental mutations that give Force affinity to the offspring of normal parents, then the supply of new Jedi to replace the old should have withered out and died relatively quickly in the lifespan of the Order.
     
  19. JoleeBee

    JoleeBee Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    May 25, 2011
    The most beautiful explanation will be that all living beings are born Force-sensitives (no exceptions). They (mostly) just don't follow the path to trully understand their powers and use them. Eventually, when living being will get older it's training potential will fade away. They will spend it on normal life (wife, husband, kids, work etc).
    That also explains why Jedi must have no attachments - that will disrupt one from trully understanding the Force. I think, that this is a legacy of the First Jedi who really lived like monks, away from the others, trying to fully understand the Force.

    EDIT:
    The Jedi Order followed expansionist way (hiring many people to the Jedi Order). Ideally, all living beings will become members of the Jedi Order. But they didn't reformed their Code! So that newly recruited mass of living beings must follow archaic ways (no family etc). If they wanted to vulgarise the Order then they must've vulgarised the Code. Create, for example, Inner Circle (Grand Masters) - only who fully accept the Jedi Code; and Outer Circle for others.
    That's how religion works, gentlemen.[face_laugh]
     
  20. Garth Maul

    Garth Maul Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 18, 2002
    But you're not thinking on a galactic level. How many Jedi are there, really? Tens of thousands? I would be surprised, quite frankly, if the number was even as high as 100,000.

    There must be many more Force sensitive beings in the galaxy than there are Jedi.

    There's also the major assumption you're making that every Force sensitive being becomes a Jedi, and I just don't think that's realistic. Not to mention that they get to all the Force-sensitives in time to train them while they're young - remember, they only reluctantly made an exception for Anakin and only then because they thought he might be the Chosen One.
     
  21. Dark Lord Tarkas

    Dark Lord Tarkas Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Yeah, if you don't get chosen as a Padawan, like Obi-Wan almost didn't at the beginning of the Jedi Apprentice books, you just get kicked out of the temple at a certain age (14, I think?) and assigned farm work or what-have-you. Then you're free to get your freak on. With the Force as your guide. :cool:
     
  22. Swashbucklingjedi

    Swashbucklingjedi Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2010
    ^^^There is a good question for GL;)

    Anyway Forcesensitivity is in genes- number of midichlorians inherits but well i guess genetics of forcesensitivity is never revealed....... there is multiple reasonable answers for that dilemma

    1. Jedi are hypocrite jerks having secret children everywhere (like Bolla Ropal and his son- come on we don't see his "father" and i don't think rodians have parthenogenetic reproduction)

    2.There simply is a lot of forcesensitives that are not taken in to the order and their genes continue to reproduce more and more sensitives- in fact this seems very probable- jedi don't take away children without giving any options- being a sensitive doesn't mean one has to become a jedi- or so i've heared i'm pretty sure EU confirms that... so sometimes parents are allowed to keep them- usually parents are proud if their offspring becomes jedi but sometimes not and they are allowed to keep their sensitive kids
    so they can have more children later on....

    also they can take only one of the siblings (perhaps that's why Obi-Wan didn't want to train both Luke and Leia) and another continues the forcesensitive family- in this case family tree has "branches that are cut off" for the order but if there is also another branch there we have no problem- order has new members all the time.....

    3.number of midichlorians somehow multiplies in families so even totally non-sensitive parents can have force-sensitive kids after few generations

    4. Forcesensitivity is somehow trait that is in recessive allele so it's rare (being wizard in Harry Potter is explained that way- really:p ) but that would mean jedi can have non-forcesensitive kids too

    5. Not all sensitives are always found


    As we see in TPM being a sensitive to the Force is not a reason for jedi training they are not making all sensitives to jedi anyway
     
  23. Dark Lord Tarkas

    Dark Lord Tarkas Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 29, 2011
    I didn't just make all that up, it's from the books. Of course, that part at the end about getting your freak on with the Force as your guide was just my little extrapolation. ;)
     
  24. ImNotAStarWarsFanboy

    ImNotAStarWarsFanboy Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 25, 2011
    Well, I suppose that makes sense. New topic?
     
  25. Dark Lord Tarkas

    Dark Lord Tarkas Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Season four will be awesome. I can't wait till that guy with the double-double lightsabers has a flashback that explains it and makes all the haters look like a bunch of chumps.