The Official Legacy of the Force Discussion thread

Yeah, until all his buddies died. And Mane, where do you get this stuff? You cite things from the article but never explain more than "I imply this from the article" How about we ditch this argument anyways, it'll just be you lowering me and anyone else down to your level. And none of us want to go THAT low. J/k J/k....or is it

 

I didn't imply anything from that post. It was in the article, which I have right in front of me at the moment.

Was that some kind of shot at Fenn. So he lost all his buddies, and went on to become the Mandalore that would bring back the power of Mandalore. Minus the conquering of course.

No where is it said that Fenn hated being a Mandalorian. If fact he seems to be very proud of being one.

 

You say the article says that Boba is going to continue on this path he is doing right now. Nowhere, in any text does it say this or even suggest it. And Fenn didn't bring Mandalore up and running, Tobbi died freeing Mandalore from slavery and then the government built itself back up. All Fenn did was die and flirt with Leia. And kill some Tofs. And Boba was sent to kill Fenn but Fenn died saving Boba from something or another. I tire of this pointlessness. Come to me when you have concrete evidence, or at least more substantial evidence to back up your claims.

 

Why would Boba Fett want to help the Jedi if a Jedi was the one who killed his father?

 

"You say the article says that Boba is going to continue on this path he is doing right now. Nowhere, in any text does it say this or even suggest it. And Fenn didn't bring Mandalore up and running, Tobbi died freeing Mandalore from slavery and then the government built itself back up. All Fenn did was die and flirt with Leia. And kill some Tofs. And Boba was sent to kill Fenn but Fenn died saving Boba from something or another. I tire of this pointlessness. Come to me when you have concrete evidence, or at least more substantial evidence to back up your claims. "

I never said the article said that. However it is a firm belief to me, that since his action during the later part of the Vong war changed that he will continuie to go on the protector path.

And if I needed one reason to know that you haven't read the article, it was all the other crap.

There was no Government after Fenn took over. In fact fenn became Lord Mandalore and reigned as Mandalore 20 years.

I have an article which is evidence.

"When Dala gave his life ridding Mandalore of slavers, the burden of revitalizing not just the Mandalorian supercommandos but Mandalore itself fell on SHYSA(not government not Boba). Now a symbol of hope rather than evil, Shysa rallied his people to join the Alliance and oppose the forces of Grand Admiral Miltin Takel. Under Mandalore Shysa's quidance, the Mandalorian Protectors rose from the ashes once more. After almost 20 years, an aging Fenn Shysa finally rejoined his childhood chum when, in an unexspeced turn of events, Shysa gave his life on the planet shogun saving Boba Fett from death."

you clearly don't know what your talking about.

 

Actually, Jaster Mereel successfully reunited the Mandalorians and, more importantly, in my opinion, gave them morals, something they appear to have lacked up until that point. After Jaster the Mandalorians would cease committing atrocities in the name of glory. Jaster's supercommando codex would be passed on to Jango, who would both train the Clones in their Mandalorian heritage and hire others to do the same.

These teachings would lead to Spar fleeing Kamino and restarting the Mandalorians once again, and then, finally, to Fenn retaking Mandalore.

While that is indeed impressive, it would never have happened had Jaster not recombined the clans in the first place, and endowed the Mandalorian culture with a new sense of honor where being a Mandalorian meant more then glory or credits over everything else.

Who contributed more, Jaster or Fenn? I would say they both contributed greatly to the future of the Mandalorian culture and leave it at that, since anything else is opinion, and I don't have any particular agenda to make one "better" then the other.

Regardless, seeing as Boba is Mandalore, the current Mandalorians are "Boba's Mandalorians" and nobody else's.

 

Oh, and I just wanted to point out, again, that despite DarthMane2's delusions Jaster didn't just unite the Mercenary clans, he united all the surviving warrior clans. It says so in the article.

 

OK, I'll humour you Mane. I concede. There, you win. Tegoth, give him hell

 

"Some Loyal Mandalorian shock troopers, such as Canderous Ordo and Master Jaing, successfully brought some of the clans to heel...."

Right there is where the issue of the Canon's of honor Mandalorians ends. The article never says that Canderous loses these Clans, and it's quite possible that these clans are the ancestors of those Mandalorians that were on Mandalore in Marvel.

the rest is

"Many other Mandalorian Mercs(seperartion from other clans), however, carried on this ruthless agenda for millennia as evidenced by the villainous Ung Kusp as well as the Mandalorian Shock trooper participation in the seemingly endless New Sith Wars.

So It doesn't say that Jaster brought together all the Mandalorian clans, but implys that he brought together the remainind merc, and or other type of Clan.

 

I will give Jaster the cuase of Fenn Shysa's rise, but Jaster was in no way a Mandalore as that of Fenn Shysa.

Jaster never did anything for his people.

Fenn on the other hand contributed twice as much. Bringing back the glory of Mandalore. Restoring the army, sector, and the economy.

He was a true Mandalore.

 

DarthMane2 said:

"Some Loyal Mandalorian shock troopers, such as Canderous Ordo and Master Jaing, successfully brought some of the clans to heel...."

Right there is where the issue of the Canon's of honor Mandalorians ends. The article never says that Canderous loses these Clans, and it's quite possible that these clans are the ancestors of those Mandalorians that were on Mandalore in Marvel.

Canderous united some of the clans. He failed to unite them all, or to keep them united. Jaster united them all, and his teachings would go on to inspire those that came after him.


"Many other Mandalorian Mercs(seperartion from other clans), however, carried on this ruthless agenda for millennia as evidenced by the villainous Ung Kusp as well as the Mandalorian Shock trooper participation in the seemingly endless New Sith Wars."

So It doesn't say that Jaster brought together all the Mandalorian clans, but implys that he brought together the remainind merc, and or other type of Clan.

Nope, wrong again. From the article:

"His prowess in combat earned him the respect of his peers, and when Mereel fought tooth and nail to become reigning Mandalore and unite the disparate clans, his ideals became the foundation of a new creed: The SuperCommando Codex."

It says right there that Jaster united the disparate clans. Since nothing contradicts this, that's pretty much that. Jaster united all the clans, anything else is just fanwank.


I will give Jaster the cuase of Fenn Shysa's rise, but Jaster was in no way a Mandalore as that of Fenn Shysa.

Whoops, looks like you had a few typos there. Allow me to fix up that sentence for you:

"Jaster was in no way (as good) a Mandalore as Fenn Shysa, in my opinion."

There you go, now you don't sound like an egomaniac. You're welcome .


Jaster never did anything for his people.

Except for saving them from extinction, completely reworking their honor system so that morals were more important then glory or credits, and seeing to it that the culture lived on past his own lifetime, that is. Claiming Jaster did nothing is just more Mane fanwank.


Fenn on the other hand contributed twice as much. Bringing back the glory of Mandalore. Restoring the army, sector, and the economy.

Oops, there's another one of those badly written egomaniacal sentences. Here you go:

"Fenn on the other hand contributed twice as much, in my opinion."

Once again, it was my pleasure. No thanks are necessary.

 

Good boy Tegoth. Mane needed some deflating. There are more people on this board than just him who know about the Mandalorians.

EDIT:And DarthMane, nasty and stupid PMs like that will not make people like you. Go get your self banned, you egomainiac. I have the Mandalorian Article as well, I just interpret it differently. Ie. Fenn Shysa did nothing to help Mandalore. He fought to save it, but most of the saving was done by Tobbi Dala. Fenn then acted self-righteous and then thankfully died. Jaster Mereel united all the clans and froged them into the greatest army yht Galaxy had ever seen. According to some sources, at Galidraan half the Jedi Order died. I find it more likly that half the Strike Force died but nonetheless, Jaster was a better Mandalore than Shysa. Oh, and <Mandalore is not the head of government, he is the head of the Mercenary Clans. Nothing else. Go learn some Mandalorian history Mane or stop acting like you do.

 

"Nope, wrong again. From the article:

"His prowess in combat earned him the respect of his peers, and when Mereel fought tooth and nail to become reigning Mandalore and unite the disparate clans, his ideals became the foundation of a new creed: The SuperCommando Codex."

It says right there that Jaster united the disparate clans. Since nothing contradicts this, that's pretty much that. Jaster united all the clans, anything else is just fanwank.
"

I don't think Disparte means all. No where in the article does it say Jaster rallied all the clans.

and I doubt those who fought for Canderous felt disparate.

Of course it's hard to say anything for Canderous, and what become's of his Clans until KOTOR 3(if there is one).

 

What do the clans that fought for Canderous have to do with anything?

He united some of the clans, he died or otherwise stopped being Mandalore, the clans he had managed to unite apparently dispersed. Hundreds of years later Jaster, as the article states, unites all of the clans.

It's all really simple, actually.

 

"And DarthMane, nasty and stupid PMs like that will not make people like you. Go get your self banned, you egomainiac. I have the Mandalorian Article as well, I just interpret it differently. Ie. Fenn Shysa did nothing to help Mandalore. He fought to save it, but most of the saving was done by Tobbi Dala. Fenn then acted self-righteous and then thankfully died. Jaster Mereel united all the clans and froged them into the greatest army yht Galaxy had ever seen. According to some sources, at Galidraan half the Jedi Order died. I find it more likly that half the Strike Force died but nonetheless, Jaster was a better Mandalore than Shysa. Oh, and <Mandalore is not the head of government, he is the head of the Mercenary Clans. Nothing else. Go learn some Mandalorian history Mane or stop acting like you do. "

Fenn Shysa, rebuild the army, took back the secotor, and rebuilt Mandalore. I'd say that is more than JAster,Jango,or Spar ever did. I'll fully admit that they are the reason for the rise of Fenn Shysa, but it was Fenn who rebuilt the Mandalorians(and not just the army, but the people as well).

Fenn helped defeat the Darksider Lord Shadowspawn, he helped in the Nagai/Tof invasion. He increased his relations with the New Republic, something the Mandalorians of the past never did.

Oh, and of course Mandalore is not the head of the government, he's the head of the entire Mandalorian race. Ugn Nusp and Jaster Mereel were Mandalore's in charge of the mercs, and Jaster Mereel had no power save over his Mercenaries. Fenn Shysa had power over the entire Mandalorian race, something not seen since the days of Mandalore the Ultimate or perhaps Canderous Ordo. The Mandalorians weren't mercenaries,didn't start out as mercenaries, and didn't even think about becoming mercs until after the Mandalorian Wars. REad the damn article, you don't have.

Jaster forged an army, but he couldn't bring them all together. All were mostly killed in a civil war, Jaster couldn't bring to an end without dieing first. And it was Jango who lead that attack on Galidraan. Jaster had gotten shot up by monkeys some time earlier.

And I believe that Fenn is the better Mandalore. Fenn actually cared for his people, not just the warrior race, but the poor people of Mandalore as well.

He did more(no opinion) for the Mandalorians then Jaster or Jango ever did. Though I'll agree that Jaster did a lot to get things moving. Though I don't think that codex or Jaster, or Spar ever told Fenn how to rule a race of people or a sector. That he learned on his own, and from the article seems to have done an excellent job at it.

 

"What do the clans that fought for Canderous have to do with anything?

He united some of the clans, he died or otherwise stopped being Mandalore, the clans he had managed to unite apparently dispersed. Hundreds of years later Jaster, as the article states, unites all of the clans.

It's all really simple, actually."

So you leave no room for another Mandalore to take Canderous place?

 

DarthMane2 said:

Fenn Shysa, rebuild the army, took back the secotor, and rebuilt Mandalore. I'd say that is more than JAster,Jango,or Spar ever did. I'll fully admit that they are the reason for the rise of Fenn Shysa, but it was Fenn who rebuilt the Mandalorians(and not just the army, but the people as well).

That Fenn helped to do this is not in dispute, but seeing as how Fenn would have probably spent his whole life protecting the same government that was enslaving his people if it weren't for Jaster and Jango, you saying that he was more important to the Mandalorians is nothing more then opinion.


Fenn helped defeat the Darksider Lord Shadowspawn, he helped in the Nagai/Tof invasion. He increased his relations with the New Republic, something the Mandalorians of the past never did.

Jaster united all of the surviving warrior clans and completely changed the way Mandalorians look at honor. Something Fenn never did.


Oh, and of course Mandalore is not the head of the government, he's the head of the entire Mandalorian race.

Actually, as of Canderous' times the Mandalorians no longer exist as a race, but as a culture. We also don't know when Mandalore stopped being the leader of the planet Mandalore. It could have happened between Knights 1 and 2 for all we know.


Ugn Nusp and Jaster Mereel were Mandalore's in charge of the mercs, and Jaster Mereel had no power save over his Mercenaries.

Jaster had power over all the existing warrior clans, he apparently didn't care about, or didn't have the resources to care about, the humans on the planet Mandalore.


Fenn Shysa had power over the entire Mandalorian race, something not seen since the days of Mandalore the Ultimate or perhaps Canderous Ordo.

There is no Mandalorian race. Just humans that live on Mandalore. Fenn managed to free said humans from slavery and reclaim the planet for the Mandalorian warriors, which is great, but then he didn't have to reboot the culture from the ground up, like Jaster did. He also didn't have half of his warriors decide that being honorable and having morals sucked and rebel against him, like Jaster did.


The Mandalorians weren't mercenaries,didn't start out as mercenaries, and didn't even think about becoming mercs until after the Mandalorian Wars. REad the damn article, you don't have.

The article never states that the Mandalorian never worked for money. In fact, the first KOTOR seems to imply that the Mandalorians were famous for caring about credits. Hard to believe that this would have come about in the brief time since the Mandalorian Wars occurred. The article also calls the ancient Mandalorians "Soldiers of Fortune" at one point, a phrase that, while not proof in and of itself that the ancient Mandalorians would work for money, can be interpreted to mean that they did.

In short, there is no proof whatsoever that the Mandalorians of old would refuse to accept payment for battle as long as the battle itself was glorious and challenging.


Jaster didn't forge an army of mercenaries who he couldn't mostly killed in a civil war, Jaster couldn't bring to an end without dieing first.

What the hell does this sentence even mean?


And it was Jango who lead that attack on Galidraan. Jaster had gotten shot up by monkeys some time earlier.

Shot up by a dishonorable piece of trash that wasn't even brave enough to face Jaster in traditional one-on-one Mandalorian combat, you mean. But, as the article states, Jaster's legacy would live on and remold the Mandalorians as a group that would have honor and morals.


And I believe that Fenn is the better Mandalore.

And that's your perogative, but it's certainly not a fact.


Fenn actually cared for his people, not just the warrior race, but the poor people of Mandalore as well.

We don't know how Jaster felt about the people that lived on Mandalore. He was busy trying to reunite the Mandalorian warriors and revive the Mandalorian culture. Did he want to help the pe

 

Then again, the storyline could just as well go the Mandalorians vs. Jedi route...as was dreamed of a long time ago

In a sense, that story has already happened twice. Jango Fettpen Seasons & Order66. You've got to realize that Fett & the Mandalorians faught the Vong because the were worthy opponents, not to help the good guys. The Mandalorians have always been the bad guys, there's no need for them to turn good now cause they definately weren't good in TuF.

 

DarthMane2 said:

So you leave no room for another Mandalore to take Canderous place?

If a Mandalore did take Canderous' place, or if a half dozen of them did, I still fail to see the point.

Canderous, and any other Mandalore that followed him, ultimately failed to unite all the clans or keep them together. Somewhere after KOTOR2 and before Open Seasons the clans disperse.

 

"That Fenn helped to do this is not in dispute, but seeing as how Fenn would have probably spent his whole life protecting the same government that was enslaving his people if it weren't for Jaster and Jango, you saying that he was more important to the Mandalorians is nothing more then opinion. "

That makes no sense, Jaster and Jango had no dealings with the government. And how does Jaster and Jango effect Fenn in this situation. For one Fenn and Tobbi ended up fighting against the government and Imperials who were enslaving the Mandalorian people. Which has nothing to do with Jaster or Jango. Spar, the clone of Jango, was even under full control of the goverment.



"Jaster united all of the surviving warrior clans and completely changed the way Mandalorians look at honor. Something Fenn never did. "

and what did Jaster do for Mandalore or the people, the sector?


"Actually, as of Canderous' times the Mandalorians no longer exist as a race, but as a culture. We also don't know when Mandalore stopped being the leader of the planet Mandalore. It could have happened between Knights 1 and 2 for all we know."

I should have said Mandalorian people. And Mandalore could have gone on to rule Mandalore once again, and that these Mandalorians were the ancestors of the Mandalorian people.

So we don't know, but this is Opinion vs Opinion


"Jaster had power over all the existing warrior clans, he apparently didn't care about, or didn't have the resources to care about, the humans on the planet Mandalore."

And had no power of Mandalore, or it's people, or the sector. Just left overs of last Mandalorian warriors. And no crap is apparent, but Thank god for Fenn in that deal.


"There is no Mandalorian race. Just humans that live on Mandalore. Fenn managed to free said humans from slavery and reclaim the planet for the Mandalorian warriors, which is great, but then he didn't have to reboot the culture from the ground up, like Jaster did. He also didn't have half of his warriors decide that being honorable and having morals sucked and rebel against him, like Jaster did."

Are you sure he didn't have to reboo the culture, because these people weren't warriors. Fenn made them into warriors, or at least his armies.


"The article never states that the Mandalorian never worked for money. In fact, the first KOTOR seems to imply that the Mandalorians were famous for caring about credits. Hard to believe that this would have come about in the brief time since the Mandalorian Wars occurred. The article also calls the ancient Mandalorians "Soldiers of Fortune" at one point, a phrase that, while not proof in and of itself that the ancient Mandalorians would work for money, can be interpreted to mean that they did.

In short, there is no proof whatsoever that the Mandalorians of old would refuse to accept payment for battle as long as the battle itself was glorious and challenging. "

I go by what the article says, and it says that the Mandalorians didn't take merc work until after the Mandalorian Wars. I used to do the maybe could be thing, but I like the article better.


"Shot up by a dishonorable piece of trash that wasn't even brave enough to face Jaster in traditional one-on-one Mandalorian combat, you mean. But, as the article states, Jaster's legacy would live on and remold the Mandalorians as a group that would have honor and morals. "

There is nothing in the article that says Fenn's Mandalorians followed Jasters teachings. He had knew problems to work with, and Jaster still held that warrior spirit. Fenn forged the Mandalorians into protectors. So I'd say he had a little bit of his own ideas for how the Mandalorians should be reborn.


"We don't know how Jaster felt about the people that lived on Mandalore. He was busy trying to reunite the Mandalorian warriors and revive the Mandalorian culture. Did he want to help the people of Mandalore? Maybe, maybe not. Jaster's end goals are a mystery to us right now, because Death Watch started a civil war within the only group at the time still

 

So anyway, back to the point...

So the title of the first book is "Betrayal", Always a fun word. Naturally, it begs the questions of who is being betrayed and who is doing the betrayal. Personally, I'm thinking that it'll be a betrayal on a grander sense, concerning planetary governments betraying the GFFA as opposed to just a single person or persons betraying someone else (though I'm sure there'll be a lot of that as well )

"Approaching darkness"? Possibly a bigger, more hardcore version of the Shadow Academy, with Lumiya and her two disciples at its head?

I'm guessing that the Anakin in question is of the Skywalker variety, as now that the prequels are over, Lucas has to get him out there somehow. Not to mention bringing back the Solo brat would completely destroy the entire second half of the NJO.

Obviously there's gonna be major character deaths. But that being said, who do they consider to be "major"?

Vergere will be proven right (or at least reasonably sane) . That being said, I've got a very bad feeling about tying her in with Lumiya, and I can already guess what all the anti-Vergere folks are going to be saying

The "circle"? A new Force-child, perhaps? Another Seperatist movement?

OBVIOUSLY the Sith will reemerge. And Ben flying the strange ship will probably be left for Zahn (because what Zahn wants, Zahn gets), and chances are that Jacen will probably put that Jedi love-mojo to good use. And keeping Yoda's species a secret adds a lot of fun and mystery to the character, which is cool. And as for the Imperials, I can honestly say that I wouldn't be sad to see them go.

Any other thoughts?

 

"In a sense, that story has already happened twice. Jango Fettpen Seasons & Order66. You've got to realize that Fett & the Mandalorians faught the Vong because the were worthy opponents, not to help the good guys. The Mandalorians have always been the bad guys, there's no need for them to turn good now cause they definately weren't good in TuF."

Actually the Mandalorians were defending and liberating the galaxy from the Yuuzhan Vong as both the Mandalorian Article and TUF say.

And the Mandalorians haven't always been the bad guys. In some sense the Mandalorians under Canderous Ordo were the good guys.

But for a more complete example, Fenn Shysa was the good Mandalorian, as were the Mandalorians he lead. They were protectors not conquers, and helped the New Republic a few times in the early years before spending their remaining time protecting their borders.

 

Of course the Sith will return. What I love most of the news is the the FEMALE Sith from Marvel will make a return. Not because it's just Lumiya, but because of the numerous debates going around saying she wasn't Sith.

Not to mention proving once and for all that Leland Chee is a bigger flip flopper than John Kerry.

"She is a Sith, she isn't a Sith, she is a Sith."

 

BIG_BAD_JEDI_MAN posted on 4/24/05 7:45pm

---

The "circle"? A new Force-child, perhaps? Another Seperatist movement?[hr][/blockquote]

I sure hope not. Anakin Skywalker should be the only child ever created by the Force itself.

 

Actually the Mandalorians were defending and liberating the galaxy from the Yuuzhan Vong as both the Mandalorian Article and TUF say.

Just so that the Vong don't mess with their territory (as seen below) & that the Vong were the new tough guys & Fett's group wanted a piece of them. Fett has never been a good guy & as long as he's leading the Mandalorians now they won't be joining the New Republic. Fett is going after Solo again...

Insider #80
Fett rejoined the Mandalorian Protectors, leading them in the defense of Gyndine, Tholatin, & Mandalore during the Yuuhzan Vong invasion.