The Official Legacy of the Force Discussion thread

Discussion in 'Literature' started by russelguppy, Apr 24, 2005.

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  1. crazythorn Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2007
    star 1
    Luke and Ben "paralyzed by action" and not doing anything for the whole book? Do not want.
  2. Rouge77 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2005
    star 5
    The most pitiful part appears that Luke is unable to act not because Mara died, but because Lumiya died by his hand. Sometimes I wonder what kind of views the authors have of the characters.
  3. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2004
    star 7
    Luke went and become a murderer by doing so. He killed Lumiya in vengeance. And he was wrong. If she had been responsible, yes, he could balance up his moral cheque book fine, but she didn't.

    If Luke wasn't shook up by it, I'd be violently disappointed in him, and the authors.
  4. Havac Former Moderator

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2005
    star 7
    I'd strongly dispute that. I think Luke isn't sure what his motives were. As he did it, he seemed to believe he was doing this for justice, and I personally detected more of that in his actions than I did vengeance. Just, "Kark it, this ends now. I'm doing what I should have done long ago." But now, looking back, he has a hard time believing that the feelings of anger and vengeance tied up in it weren't dominant, and it's very easy for him to doubt that. I personally hope he doesn't stay tied up, especially after Inferno, but I could see some new evidence coming up that would set him back, and it's a very realistic characterization to have him constantly doubting himself, which is one of his great strengths and weaknesses as a hero.
  5. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    Probably something along the lines of Luke should have died in Vector Prime.

    That's not to say Luke shouldn't doubt himself it's part of what keeps him a very human character. I just want consistancy in terms of when Luke gets over it. I'm not entirely sure why Ben is paralyzed by grief though.
  6. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5

    Sinrebirth
    If Luke wasn't shook up by it, I'd be violently disappointed in him, and the authors.


    I'm extremely disappointed in the AUTHORS for writing Luke as killing for revenge. At this point in his life and with all of his past experiences, there is no way that Luke should be doing things like this. He is the GRANDMASTER of the Jedi Order, not a new padawan. He has always had compassion and he has learned patience and restraint. Luke should NOT have been written as so foolish and weak as to be involved in a vengeance killing. Luke should be the example for the young Jedi of what a Jedi Knight SHOULD do in a difficult situation, not a poster boy for what should NOT be done by a Jedi. But of course Del Rey wanted to kill Luke off, and since they weren't allowed to do that, they continue to destroy his character instead. :(


    Havac
    As he did it, he seemed to believe he was doing this for justice, and I personally detected more of that in his actions than I did vengeance.

    Not really. Read it again. The very fact that he didn't want her to commit suicide because "You're mine!" proves it.

    I personally hope he doesn't stay tied up, especially after Inferno,

    It makes absolutely NO sense that Luke would go back to being inactive again after he was so active in Inferno. If he does nothing but sit on the sidelines in grief and guilt, then it's only because the authors once again don't know what to do with Luke Skywalker. :( And by doing this, they once again make Luke look awful and make him unpopular with fans. I'll bet that we'll be having more threads calling for Luke's death after Fury if he does indeed sit on the sidelines moping again. :(
  7. Havac Former Moderator

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2005
    star 7
    I have read it, Windy. And he did not want Lumiya, a woman with a proven track record of escaping crashes, to get away. Your reading isn't the only possible one, just the most depressing possible one.
  8. Master_Keralys Sometime Technical Aide and Erstwhile Lit Mod

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2003
    star 5
    And I'll back that up by pointing out that she not only had a track record of that variety, but a significant part of her body wasn't normal flesh and blood but mechanical, and far stronger and more durable than ordinary flesh. There's a very good chance she could have survived that fall.

    You see what you want to see in the text.

    - Keralys
  9. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    Havac

    I have read it, Windy. And he did not want Lumiya, a woman with a proven track record of escaping crashes, to get away.

    Then how about this one which Luke also said: "A life for a life." That's definitely revenge.

    Master_Keralys

    You see what you want to see in the text.

    Believe me, the very LAST thing I wanted to see in the text was a vengeance killing by Luke! As far as I'm concerned, the author engaged in character assassination by having Luke literally murder Lumiya.

    And it seems the authors see a vengeance killing in the text as well. That's why in the blurb for Fury it says something about Luke not being able to act because he felt so much guilt over his "vengeance killing of Lumiya". So, I NOT imagining this or misinterpreting text. As much as I wish Traviss wouldn't have written it that way, she did. As I've said before, she is now my least favorite SW author because of her handling of the Jedi, especially of Luke, Ben, and Mara.


  10. Havac Former Moderator

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2005
    star 7
    Is it? Or is it a deeply saddened man throwing explanations against the wall until they stick? Luke very clearly isn't sure why he did it; he may not have been consumed by a desire for vengeance (I don't see it in the text) but he's having a hard time convincing himself he wasn't, because he's always doubting himself and his motives, and he has a hard time seeing how he could have been dispassionate. Windy, you constantly maintain that Luke didn't actually fall to the dark side in DE despite all evidence to the contrary and that Luke was just beating himself up for coming really close. And you refuse to believe that could be the case here? You really don't want to be happy, do you?
  11. Ackbar_Van_Gungan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2004
    star 4
    The idea was the Luke was so horribly hurt by the loss of Mara that he lost it. No one has died that has meant that much to Luke. Maybe Owen and Beru but he had never shared a force bond/love with them. He had never been that close with anyone.

    You can't say it was outside his character because it has never happened before.

    And reacting violently to the loss of a loved one runs in the Skywalker family. It leads to irrational, dark side behavior. Unlike Anakin, Luke having seen the full danger of the dark side (something the prequel Jedi hadn't witnessed) recognized himself giving into his love and the hatred and fear brought about as a result of losing that love and he regrets it.

    It makes sense perfectly in terms of characterization. Just because he is the Jedi Grand Master doesnt mean he doesnt have emotions. He does have a understanding of the power and seductive nature of the dark side and a healthy fear and respect for it.

    -The Rebel Gungan

  12. Jeff_Ferguson Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2006
    star 4
    I think that the quote from Sue at the bottom of this page is pretty interesting:


    I've been musing on whether or not Vergere will appear to Jacen in Invincible or not, and this adds fuel to my hope. Perhaps she can reveal to him that she's not a Sith, and that he's completely bastardized her teachings? :D[face_praying][face_praying] And since Troy Denning's comments at about 1:30 in this video suggest that he might be a believer in the Potentium theory (heh, maybe I'm looking too much into "The Dark Side is in all of us"), it makes sense that it would be his book where Vergere reveals her non-Sithdom! Hooray!
  13. Havac Former Moderator

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2005
    star 7
    We could use some good old-fashioned Force-ghosting. It's been underused since the movies. And I sure hope it's Vergere revealing how Jacen screwed up . . . because it would be fun to watch dp's brain explode.
  14. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5

    Havac

    but he's having a hard time convincing himself he wasn't, because he's always doubting himself and his motives,

    I will agree that Luke DOES always doubt himself...far too much, in my opinion. And you would think that after so many years and so much experience that he would finally now trust himself a little more.

    Windy, you constantly maintain that Luke didn't actually fall to the dark side in DE despite all evidence to the contrary and that Luke was just beating himself up for coming really close.

    There isn't a lot of evidence that Luke fell to the dark side in DE and far more that he didn't. He didn't do any evil acts; he didn't kill innocents. In fact, he saved many lives by sending Imperial codes to the Alliance and by sabotaging Imperial equipment. How can you truly be darkside if you don't do evil acts?

    And you refuse to believe that could be the case here?

    There is a big difference between DE and the killing of Lumiya in Sacrifice. In DE, the reader doesn't get inside Luke's head, doesn't read Luke's thoughts throughout the events. That's not true of the killing of Lumiya. The reader IS in "Luke's head". The reader DOES know what Luke is thinking. Luke's actions in DE are more open to interpretation for that reason; his actions in Sacrifice are not.

    You really don't want to be happy, do you?

    Believe me, I would LOVE to have a SW book make me happy again. Except for SQ and OF, it's been a LONG time, a VERY long time. :(

    Ackbar_Van_Gungan
    The idea was the Luke was so horribly hurt by the loss of Mara that he lost it. No one has died that has meant that much to Luke. He had never been that close with anyone.
    You can't say it was outside his character because it has never happened before.

    But AVG, would a person here on Earth be able to kill the murderer of his/her wife or husband? Of course not! That person would be tried and punished for murder himself/herself. I would like to think that Luke is a better and more moral person than that. I would like to think that as a Jedi, he would be more restrained. Yes, it was a HUGE blow to Luke Skywalker to lose his wife, the love of his life, the mother of his son. But true heroes don't stoop to the level of the villains. I'm truly annoyed that Luke was written this way. This response was the kind of thing his father would do. Luke is NOT supposed to be his father.

    And reacting violently to the loss of a loved one runs in the Skywalker family. It leads to irrational, dark side behavior.

    And I disagree with this kind of thinking that says that just because the father does something, that the son will do the same, that it's in the genes. I don't believe that's true. I don't believe that because the father reacts violently to a loss that the son must do the same. Do you believe that the child of a rapist or a thief or a murderer, must also follow in his/her father's footsteps and become a rapist, a thief, or a murderer too?

    I would like to think that Luke is a better and more moral and more restrained person than his father was. I find it VERY disappointing that Traviss wrote him as dark as dear old daddy in AotC. :( Luke is supposed to be the HERO. His father was the VILLAIN. They should NOT be written the same way.

    It makes sense perfectly in terms of characterization. Just because he is the Jedi Grand Master doesnt mean he doesnt have emotions.

    No, but he SHOULD be able to rein in those emotions. He shouldn't be falling to the darkside now. As you said, Luke DOES have an understanding of the power and seductive nature of the dark side and a healthy fear and respect for it. That is PRECISELY why having Luke kill in revenge is COMPLETELY out of character. Luke Skywalker would WAIT and calm himself before acting at this point in his life. OR, he would let someone who isn't as personally involved deal with Lumiya.

    But Traviss hates the Jedi, so she wrote the Grandmaster in the worst way possible. Meanwhile, her beloved Mandalorians are
  15. Havac Former Moderator

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2005
    star 7
    Windy, the dark side isn't an act. It's a mindset. And if Leia had to pull him back from that mindset . . . it's clear something was wrong. And what we see of Luke's head in Sacrifice isn't as clear as you insist it is. Just because you interpret it one way doesn't mean that's the only way to interpret it.
  16. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5

    Havac

    Windy, the dark side isn't an act. It's a mindset. And if Leia had to pull him back from that mindset . . . it's clear something was wrong.

    But Leia DID NOT pull him back. What Leia did was renew his hope. Luke was despairing that he would be able to defeat Palpatine or be able to get away from him after he lost to that last clone of Palpatine's. When Leia told him that she had foreseen that he would train her children, he was suddenly fine and beat Palpatine in another duel.

    Just because you interpret it one way doesn't mean that's the only way to interpret it.

    I do agree with you that different people interpret events in different ways. HOWEVER, in this case, the blurb for Fury TELLS us that Luke is unable to act because he is feeling guilty over his "VENGEANCE KILLING of Lumiya". I'd say that's pretty explicit and no longer open to interpretation. The authors and publisher are now telling us that it WAS a vengeance killing. :(

    Believe me, I'd LOVE to be wrong.



  17. Maul Brady Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 1999
    star 4
    I still wished Old Ben would come back as a Force-ghost. To remind Luke what the right path always is. But sadly, that won't happen.

    I want this Force-ghost to be positive and bring news of hope and confidence. I don't want that Vergere appearing in any other SW book. Ugh.
  18. Rouge77 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2005
    star 5
    No Vergere please.[face_praying] She has no right to appear when we could get Obi-wan, Yoda, Anakin senior or even Anakin younger.[face_not_talking] Yet I expect we will get Mara - which I don't have anything against and her appearance would make sense, but there's no reason why she couldn't appear with other Force Ghosts.[face_plain]
  19. Nobody145 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2007
    star 4
    Force ghosting is nice sometimes, but honestly, it would be a bit too... convenient for possibly omniscient ghosts to come along and tell the main character what to do. It also negates death a little, as if Mara died, then showed up and told Luke Jacen killed her, and said hi to Ben as well... in that case, the death wouldn't have quite as much impact. Obi-wan was a possible exception, given that he and yoda had been preparing for the last couple of decades for Luke to be the right age to being training and eventaully overthrow Palpatine. And we know Qui-gon had the original techinque, and taught it to both Yoda and Obi-wan. The rest who have made appearances as Force ghosts don't have that excuse. There's also something to be said for if the dead Jedi was just really, really powerful, then that might be enough, but not for something on the scale of Obi-wan tutoring Luke on the Jedi basics as a ghost.

    Still, Anakin Solo could be possible, but I'd just prefer the dead should stay dead. If they're going to kill someone, at least let them just die and get it over with.

    Although, it would be great for Vergere to show up again, even briefly, and tell Caedus what a moron he is. And maybe even retcon her Sith status. I think its possible that she might've tried to apprentice to Sidious, but consideing how the NJO went, I honestly don't think she did it all so the Sith could rule the galaxy, but that's still mainly my own opinion.

    Anyway, old Jedi Order ghosts can't be that helpful. Maybe with some knowledge that's missing from all the records, but part of what Luke's NJO is supposed to be doing is avoiding the mistakes of the old Order.

    And while I will be annoyed if Luke just keeps on moping (especially as he moped a little in Inferno, but then got down to business, despite his personal grief, so its even more annoying that he's backsliding now), Luke's doubt and compassion is one of his greatest strength. Luke sometimes knows absolutely what the right thing to do is, but being too sure of one's self also means being too arrogant, and means Luke could end up like Vader. Its late in Luke's to have these kind of problems, but Luke's still only human.
  20. killfire Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2001
    star 4
    The most logical force ghost would be Anakin Senior. He told Jacen to "Stand firm" in NJO. What would he tell him now? "Slipped you have."
  21. Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Nov 21, 2000
    star 4
    Denningdoesn't actually seem to have thought much about what Stover wrote in Traitor... If you read the interview in Inferno, he's saying two things: First, he was responsible for turning Jacen into the bad guy (seeing this as the way the story would develop) and second, saying something (again) about the dark side being not from the outside, but from the inside. Which is pure Vergere. Together with Traviss' comments along the lines of "Jedi shouldn't be main characters in Star Wars", this interview really helps dicrediting the whole series...


    On a sidenote, I flipped through Betrayal again, and when Jacen and party confront all the mad guys who got stirred up by Lumiya, there's one guy who wants a government ruled by legalization droids... I wonder if it's just coincidence that this actually turned up as a major plot point later on...
  22. Jeff_Ferguson Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2006
    star 4
    It's amazing the stuff you can discover by heading on over to the Official Site Forums. lordchewie52 posted this link, which includes art of Luke and Lumiya's Sacrifice duel from the upcoming Jedi Vs. Sith book, as well as what appears to be... Ganner? fighting a Vong.

    But also... and get ready, everyone...


    Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!
  23. Jango_Fettish Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2002
    star 4
    Thats good. Jaina fans would have gone nuts if she didn't get a cover.

    Well, even more so :p.
  24. Havac Former Moderator

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2005
    star 7
    [image=http://weblogs.newsday.com/entertainment/tv/blog/palpatine.jpg]
    Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen.
  25. Master_Keralys Sometime Technical Aide and Erstwhile Lit Mod

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2003
    star 5
    Yes! IWoD! Huzzah! :p

    - Keralys
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