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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

The Official Legacy of the Force: Exile Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Rogue_Follower, Feb 7, 2007.

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  1. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    May 9, 2000
    I dunno, Alynn. Luke's POV suggested he was pretty convinced about the misinformation, in the earlier scene where they came up with the idea (pages 183-6)....

    I suppose he could have changed his mind "off-screen", but Mara's reactions in that scene felt slightly strange to me, and I don't think we ever saw her inner thoughts in any of the few scenes from her POV in this book (the only Mara POV scene I can find on a quick skim-through is on pages 127-30). In particular, her anger at the top of page 186 could easily be more to do with the fact that Luke is making excuses for Jacen, than the fact that this means she can't take care of him the way she's trained to....

    It's not impossible that, while Luke obsesses about Lumiya, Mara is far more alive to what's going wrong with Jacen than he realises - and that her apparent support of Luke is just a taras-chi game that she's been playing for rather longer than Kyp. Compare her behaviour in Tempest, where she thoroughly misdirects Jacen without anyone else realising it (and the echo of this in Leia's suggestion on page 126 of Exile)....

    And even if we did see Mara's own POV diretcly, there's still no guarantee that it would be an accurate reflection of her true feelings... [face_mischief]

    Yeah. Take a look at what Allston does with Uran Lavint. On her first appearance (pages 9-13), her POV gives no hint that she's anything else apart from the pro-Corellian smuggler she appears to be:


    One of the enemy ships had to be some kind of Interdictor...

    ...

    She couldn't keep the desperation out of her voice. The original orders to scatter only made sense if every ship was a short distance from the safe-haven of Corellia--didn't the idiots see that?

    ...

    Frantically, Lavint wrenched the controls around in a new direction, but [i]Breathe My Jets[/i] was not a small, nimble craft. In the agonizing seconds it took the cargo vessel to take a new heading, she heard Blatta calmly describing their situation....[hr][/blockquote]

    She thinks of the Alliance as the "enemy"; she feels genuine panic and despair when she sees the smuggler ships break and run, straight into the hands of the Alliance; and she's "frantic" when she finds herself under attack. She's deep enough into the mindset she's expected to have in that scenario that there's no sign she's anything other than what she appears to be: her own real identity never enters into her head....

    It's only when we see Jacen's POV (pp. 13-17) that we realise she's betrayed them all to the Alliance.

    Later, we have a lovely little insight into her character from Alema (pages 60-61), but look at the scene when Jacen meets her again (pages 196-7): he knows she's lying, and he knows she knows he knows - but he can't find any hint of it in the Force (and cross-reference this with his and Nelani's contrasting reactions to Lumiya in [i]Betrayal[/i])...

    That in turn leads onto an observation that Jacen's over-dependence on his Force-sense has deadened his other senses, and arguably narrowed his awareness and made him easy to "play"; but while very important, that's getting away from the point I want to make....

    We know that Allston has portrayed pathological liars in the past (Zsinj, notably); so with that in mind, we can't even trust narrative POVs any more... ;\

    Oh, and if Uran Lavint thinks of herself as "an heir to the tradition of Han Solo", and her career is built on uncomfortable debts to "more successful smugglers, members of organized crime", might we suspect that "Uran Lavint" [i]might[/i] just be an alias of (or at least an allusion to) [link=http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Danielle_Kieran]Dani Kieran[/link], Han's possible daughter, who bough her first ship with a hefty loan from Talon Karrde...?

    /:) :-?

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
  2. Rouge77

    Rouge77 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    May 11, 2005
    We she could be her, if there would not be this:

    Though born to well-fed, well-tended middle-manager parents on Bespin... (page 10).

    I think that she is just supposed to be a kind of female version of Han Solo, who did not have the kind of luck he had, and so was stuck to the life of an ordinary smuggler.
     
  3. Alynn

    Alynn Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 27, 2005
    True enough, but then after having talked to Jacen there's this from Jacen's POV on page 200:

    And now, Jacen told himself, the test of courage. Do you propose to me that my memories were meddled with too? That my thinking has been altered?

    Luke did seem to be on the verge of saying something when he looked up and around. A moment later Jacen and Mara felt it too...
    blah blah blah then they were all distracted by the fleet action.

    Jacen believes he knows what Luke was going to say, and he believes that he was successful in carrying through the deception, but they were all distracted by the disturbance in the Force before that belief could be confirmed. Throughout the passage prior to that, Luke's cheerfulness belies his probing while Jacen pretended to puzzle as he parsed out the information in a calculated fashion. However, Luke's senses are primed--out of the three Jedi, he was the first to recognize something was amiss. Since the meeting was cut short, what we don't know is whether Luke sensed something out of Jacen that cast doubt on the theory and readjusted accordingly.

    And of course, when Corran comically nearly spilled the beans on the taras-chi ruse in what was ostensibly a closed meeting, Mara's response was "a scowl that all but said not now, you idiot." Why not then? Because whoever might be listening might start to find the information disseminated at that meeting suspect. In other words, Luke (who set the agenda) was only releasing information that he wanted to get out. Taking a page from Lumiya's playbook, perhaps?


    I have no problem with that, though. Everything they tell me could be a lie. :eek: They're all Vergere!


    I have no problem with that either. Secret daughters for everybody!
     
  4. Vongoid

    Vongoid Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    May 5, 2002
    Since it is an Allston book I had the feeling that Uran Lavint might just be another name for Lara Notsil/Kirney Slate/Gara Petosal (sp???). The age would fit, and it could go with her story arc as well.

    And we have a chance to find out whether Jacen could sense a bullet from a Nightstinger rifle in time. Go, Myn, go :cool:
     
  5. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001
    I would find it very unlikely given Lara's personality that she would set-up the other smugglers as such.
     
  6. Rouge77

    Rouge77 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    May 11, 2005
    Also Betrayal puts the happy couple doing shuttle business on Corellia...

    And I do not think that the exact age of Lavint is really mentioned in Exile. We are told that years have not treated her well when it comes to outer appearance, but that it is so far as I remember.
     
  7. Vongoid

    Vongoid Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    May 5, 2002

    She played the Rebels vs. Empire vs. the Rebels ...


    Really? I must have missed that. Do you have page nr.? Thanks
     
  8. Rouge77

    Rouge77 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    May 11, 2005
    It´s the mention of DONOSLANE EXCURSIONS company in page 146.
     
  9. cloneCommando1138

    cloneCommando1138 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 16, 2005
    I hated how lando was completely dropped in the end of the novel. He is completely ignored and we dont kwow what his fate is
     
  10. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001
    No, she was an Imperial agent who ultimately felt the Empire was wrong and the Alliance/New Republic was right.

    There's a difference.

    Nothing in her personality suggested a shift back to anti-Republic sentiment.
     
  11. ConservativeSoldier

    ConservativeSoldier Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 1, 2005
    His fate is, unlike Anakin Solo, not dead. ;)
     
  12. Bringbacknom

    Bringbacknom Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 3, 2006
    so was wedge wasn't he?
    it felt forced towards the end. Gilatter VIII was wrapped up waaaay too fast, Alema escapes without us knowing how, everyone on the Errant Venture vanishes...and the lightsabre duels were too short!
     
  13. ARC-77

    ARC-77 Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2006
    Just a question about the book. I read it, and thought it was pretty good, but why Turr Phenir for Supreme Commander? Is he Commenorian or something? That just seemed to come completely out of left field.
     
  14. BobaKareu

    BobaKareu Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Sorry if this has been mentioned before (we've got 55 pages here), but what the heck was up with the Luke/Lumiya duel? I was very confused by them turning off their weapons and shaking hands. I know she's the baddie (for now, at least), but it did say that Luke didn't sense any malicious thoughts through the Force. And then they shook hands... I dunno, it seemed like a weird turning point.
     
  15. Sabrajaguar

    Sabrajaguar Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2001
    ^ Lumyia's elevator dosent go to the top floor.
    She is 3 X-wings short of a Wing
    She's a few dreadnaughts short of a flotilla

    So she might not necessarily give off malice. Like Jacen said in Betrayal...."She might just not be feeling particularly evil right now."

    A telepathinc scan of Docta' Doom revealed he is not malicious in his actions, He is just 100% convinced he is always right and knows whats best for humanity.
     
  16. QuiGon-Z

    QuiGon-Z Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2003
    You can't judge Lumiya by those halo moments. What purpose would have been served if she tried to kill Luke? Jacen would've questioned whether or not she does have a grudge against him and would've reconsidered his path toward the sith.
    If she'd killed Jacen like she suggested she might have to Luke, she'd have no budding sith lord.
    By feigning peace with the Grand Master she not only creates uncertainty in Luke's head but ensures her survival to continue indoctrinating Jacen. And cements the "Sith are really good!" idea in Jacen.

    Example: She says "everything I do I do to bring peace to the galaxy."
    Then she gets Bothawui and Commenor involved in the war when Jacen was about to force a settlement. Get the idea here? She's extraordinarily good at deception, it just served her purposes to appear peaceful toward Luke at that moment.

    Plus now if they fight again Luke will be uncertain about fighting her and Lumiya might be able to get in a quick strike.
     
  17. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2005
    So, in Exile Adumar joins the Confederation. Last we heard, Admiral Teren Rogriss was Adumar's Minister of Defense. This begs the question: what's my boy Rogriss up to?
     
  18. Rouge77

    Rouge77 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    May 11, 2005
    As the next books are not by Allston - who could, perhaps, use him - the answer probably is that "your boy Rogriss" is not up to anything. He will not make an appearance. Denning and Traviss will not use him, I am pretty certain of that.[face_plain]
     
  19. jedimasterkenobi02

    jedimasterkenobi02 Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jun 2, 2006
    It almost makes me wish that there was only one author for this series. That way it would al fit together better.
     
  20. AnnLouise

    AnnLouise Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 10, 2005
    You're not the only one. The whole "Jacen falling to the DS" plot feels like it was anounced ahead of time as the main plot thread of this series, but has since been delayed ad nauseam in order to fill out nine books.
    Instead of waiting for Jacen to pledge to the Sith already and quit moping about it in-between torturing someone to death, I'd love to see it happen mid-series. The final books could actually deal with his turing.
     
  21. Randy1012

    Randy1012 Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 26, 2007
    I do agree that they're dragging it out way too much. So far it seems like this series could have been covered in like four books, maybe five.
     
  22. Darth_Sabith

    Darth_Sabith Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 17, 2006
    I thought since these books are suppose to circle Jacen becoming a dark lord we really haven't see much of him in the books so far. Even Ben,and Luke are getting more time in the spot light for the moment.
     
  23. Jedi_Matt

    Jedi_Matt Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 11, 2002
    remember these books are supposed to be released in 'real time' right? ie; the gap in release is the gap in the story?

    You don't become a Sith Lord in a few months, you don't fall completely that quickly.

    Jacen's fall started in Traitor
    Anakin's in Rogue Planet (if not before), ever since Palps started to keep an eye on him and influence his actions and thoughts.
     
  24. QuiGon-Z

    QuiGon-Z Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2003
    Not really though. THink about it, Jacen pledges himself to the dark side in Betrayal.

    Whereas in the novel version of Episode III, when Obi and Ani are aboard Invisible Hand, Obi warns Anakin that he may again face the choice of joining the sith and Anakin flatly says "That's not a choice."

    His fall, I believe, starts at the point in the book where Obi-Wan's talking to him about tracing Darth Sidious to 500 Republica. The time Anakin thinks that if he found Darth Sidious he would ask him what he could do to save Padme. Before that Anakin's not really headed for a fall at all. That's the turning point.
     
  25. Grey1

    Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2000
    There might be a reason why a SW movie only has two hours...

    Honestly, Jacen is a Sith ever since Bloodlines. Not just "on a dark path" (that would be DN1) or a "retconned dark path" (that would be anything from Traitor to VP to YJK to TLC), but truly convinced that Sith is the way to go. Still, Lumiya keeps telling him that he has to wait for the next HC novel to be a Sith while Luke & friends don't interfere with him because he doesn't call himself Dartrh yet when he's torturing innocents to death. And his dark actions are considerably beyond Anakin's early dark side actions, for he's doing it all with the explicit intent of being a Sith. Anakin at least fought for control and felt ashamed after actions like the Tusken slaughter or Dooku's execution.

    I think it's OK if SW novels flesh out the characters and give us five novels for what Lucas and Stover packed into one single episode. But they don't. They are mostly stalling instead of delivering "insight". If they wanted to turn out really great psychological case studies of fallen heroes, they'd go back to publishing one book per year and giving authors enough time to catch up with what's been written prior to their story.

    Maybe it would be best if they went for a model like with the movies - having three central events with lots of spare time between them and then filling the gaps later on. It might well be that Darth Who will be done with after book 9. We'd then have Vader's "official heir" as a Sith for something about twenty months max, with him carrying a Darth title for about ten months. Now, that really is the new Vader. Why not have Jacen becoming interested in DN, turning five years later in Betrayal (during really intense events) and then continue in book 2 about three to five years later, when he finally chooses to reveal his true nature to the Jedi? We'd then have a timespan with a scheming (and memorable) villain who's influencing minor events to prepare for what is to come.

    In other words: give us back the opening scroll! I want to find out about huge galactic developments in three paragraphs!
     
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