The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)

Yeah, they were stupid. Doesn't mean they change into someone else.

 

I don't think anyone reasonably thought that since the personality swap at the beginning of the NJO.

Although, to be COMPLETELY fair, no one thought the same of *Jaina* either since there was the inexplicable hatred of her mother out of nowhere in Vector Prime...

Ah crap! Now you've made me want to go read Vector Prime!

I've actually been wanting to avoid the whole NJO because the characters I was so familiar with seemed to have had their personalities replaced with something negative and annoying in those books.

Oh well. I suppose it will help me understand what crappy direction they have been going down.

Sorry for being bitter, but I loved the Bantam era, and what happened to the characters at the hands of Del Rey just makes me sick.

 

Stockholm Syndrome.
The only bad thing Han and Leia did was not putting Jacen in an asylum after his return from captivity.

 

I remember that Jacen was psychologically evaluated after returning, and all the NR doctors said he was fine. It's the doctor's fault!

 

So if Han and Leia get all the blame for Jacen's fall, do Owen and Beru get all the credit for Luke's deeds?

 

Heya everyone. Long time board member but haven't posted in Lit in forever.

Well, I bought "Betrayal" a while back and I'm glad I stopped there. Right away when Jacen killed Nelani, I could not keep reading the books. I could not keep feeding them money. I knew where it was going to end - Jacen's death. I just read along with the spoilers on the internet through the whole series. I invested so much time and energy into the NJO series, and was ultimately disappointed. I couldn't go through that again with this series.

Solus:
"

People seem unable to realize that it actually was Jacen who did that. Caedus did not kill him, he simply turned into an evil person by choice."


True, Solus. For all you "Caedus killed Jacen" apologists, Jacen pretty much turned to the dark side when he murdered Nelani in cold blood. And that's in the first book, way before he decided to become Caedus.

I'm just sad that they killed Jacen and that this was his ultimate fate. It really puts a downer on the old Bantam novels, especially the hopeful moment when Jacen and Jaina were born in "The Last Command", back in 1991, me thinks. I wonder what Timothy Zahn thinks of this series. They kill off three of his characters in this series: Palleon, Mara Jade and Jacen.

What's more, all three characters deserved happy endings after all the struggles they went through.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the "legacy" of this series for me is that I finally understand the movie-only purists. I mean, this endless hell of conflict, death, and the dark side. What was the point of the Original Trilogy anyway, if the galaxy ended up like this?

The best time I had in the Expanded Universe in the last 5-7 years was playing as "Jaden Korr" in Jedi Academy (video game). Just being a Jedi Knight for a while, running around the galaxy, keeping the peace. What a great Star Wars experience, and it never once undermined what Luke and gang achieved in the movies.

 

QFT.

(I don't mean to spam, but that really does sum things up nicely.)

 

Just ignore him Time. He's more than likely never going to be optimistic about anything DR does again. To me that is the real disappointing thing about this book. Denning had the chance to really change the way the disenchanted fans of SW who've hated the novels since NJO look at books that come after it, but instead it seems that Invincible has just made things worse for them. Now people like Rouge here think their seuth sayers and know for an undisputed fact that DR will repeat themselves and Allana will become the next threat rather than the next hope, and that Jaina will most certainly become the Empress of the Imperial Remnant that she'll definently be the one who starts the IK's, even though that may not be the plan what so ever.

Way back before DNT began a lot of fans thought they knew for sure that Jacen was going to simply be a Grey Jedi when he came back and one day start his own Order. Before LOTF began and all throughout the series till Sacrafice everybody thought they knew that Luke or one of the Big 3 was going to die and that Ben was going to be Jacens Sith apprentice. And just before this book came out I heard lots of people say they knew they wouldn't dare kill off another Solo son and that they'd kill Jaina before that happend.

Imagine what we'll all think we will know tomorrow. The truth is nobody can know anything about what these publishers and authors got up their sleeves until after the series has actually come out and gotten started and even then nobody can be sure they know where the story is headed. I had plenty of theories of why I didn't think they were going to kill any of the Big 3 off in this series but that doesn't mean I couldn't have been wrong and it was that uncertainty that kept me in suspense and thats why I kept reading. Its as simple as that.

 

This might be kind of a pointless post, but I realy want to express my full support for RK_Striker_JK_5 (man, that's a hard name to write... ) and Solus. To me, the whole point (from an interesting storytelling point of view) of a fall to the dark side (and in Anakin's case redemption) is lost if Anakin and Vader, or Jacen and Caedus, are not the same persons. Good people do turn bad, good people can do horrible things.

Gee. This really did turn out to be rather pointless, but it's only six in the morning - what do you expect?

 

I agree that nothing is certain except for the Ben and Kol connection that is.

 

Your theory has holes. Revan was NEVER destroyed, he was always true to himself no matter what the cause. The same can be said for Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker and Jacen Solo/Darth Caedus.

 

I used to be one of the biggest EU proponents out there, but since NJO started, it has more and more become like one of the long running comic book series such as Super man or Spiderman. It is just one endless cycle of war, death, and destruction while the continuity gets more muddled.

Sure, those concepts have their place, but their significance becomes worthless when you are blowing everything up every series. This series really means nothing, it just destroyed what has come before. And the next major series will do it and the one before, etc. I agree with the poster above who said the last truly enjoyable EU experience was Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy where there was conflict and fighting, but it wasn't overdone.

I read and purchased every book in the NJO, I borrowed Swarm War from the library, and only purchased the first book of LOTF while reading summaries of the softcovers and reading the hardcovers. I won't even bother with Invincible after reading the reviews/spoilers here and elsewhere.

Having a big galaxy altering event every decade or so is fine, I didn't mind most of NJO, but this is pretty silly now, I have seen war-torn third world countries with more stable governments/societies than the EU.

Good luck to the ones who keep reading and let me know how the eventual civil war against Daala works out and the one after that and the one after that. Let me know if we ever get another book where the characters aren't dealing with the world collapsing around them while moping around depressed and dying, because that hasn't happened since Vision of the Future.

 

Revan nearly destroyed the galaxy and wanted to enslave the universe.

He was consumed more than most.

Traya is just a madwoman.


Good luck to the ones who keep reading and let me know how the eventual civil war against Daala works out and the one after that and the one after that. Let me know if we ever get another book where the characters aren't dealing with the world collapsing around them while moping around depressed and dying, because that hasn't happened since Vision of the Future.

Honestly, I don't get why people can't appreciate a happy ending.

Jacen is dead. Mara and Nelani are avenged. So are the Kashkyyk.

The horror that was Darth Caedus is gone.

It's a moment for celebration.

The galaxy is liberated and everyone should rejoice.

It seems like if the Prequels came first you'd be mad that Darth Vader died.

 

Correct. My point is that I think its unfair to say that Allana is definently going Sith one day just because DR has the contract again. I don't care what DR's track record with the Solo kids are. I'm staying positive about Allana's future.

 

Wrong. A series needs to know when to be dark and when to be joyous. LOTF failed in both spots.

 

Sounds rather.....Unpleasant =P

 

I do. I don't intend this as any sort of attack, but rather just an observation --- the majority of posters here get mad when the post-ROTJ EU doesn't go the way they want it to. I might be a rarity, but I can accept SW stories as they are and appreciate all of the good things in them, while saying "Oh well" to the bad things, and that's even with all of the emotional investment I have in them. Then again, it may be because I enjoy the books more, and see more good than bad. Regardless, I believe that a lot of posters here are upset not because LOTF ended exactly as it did, but because it didn't end exactly the way they wanted it to. Is it really that difficult to distinguish between hopes and expectations?

I'm as emotionally invested in the EU as much as the next poster, but I also enjoy the majority of the books I read. In LOTF, Bloodlines was pretty much the only one I didn't like that much. Why keep reading when you hate the product so, so much? It seems like they do so because they hang onto a glimmer of hope that the EU will one day proceed exactly as they want it to. It's like, if you don't enjoy new episodes of The Simpsons, then don't watch it. Investing so much emotional attachment into your reading, to the point where you're far more critical than you need be, seems like a major deterrant to your enjoyment of your hobby.

 

I've stopped reading. Revelations was an epic disappointment and I was hoping they could fix LOTF by making Invincible great. But now I'm not throwing Del Ray another dime. I haven't really taken a glimpse at the Legacy comics so they are pretty much my last beacon of hope.

 

Quite simply, The Bantam Era established these characters after the OT. So after almost a decade of characters growing from what we see in the movies, they then go of course in a fairly obvious way.

This isn't about it end the way people want it to (well, mostly anyway), it's about the direction the 'powers that be' have taken these characters in. In that, they have not really honoured all the attributes given to these characters in the Bantam Era.

Either that or I need another Jim Beam...=D

 

I think that that's a fair statement, Bumfluff. It's definitely frustrating to see an Editorial Board change, and then the things that you believe made something great suddenly stop happening. It's kind of like George Lucas taking over directorial duties for the prequels.

 

God its been years since I posted on TFN, it's good to be back.

I doubt I'll have Invincible until June due to Forbidden Planet in my town being rather rubbish in getting the LOTF books in on time. Unless I decide to give Amazon a shout, I expect I'll be waiting and maybe hoping.

I'm happy that Jaina was the one to finish off Caedus, not least because she's my favourite character. I think LOTF ruined her completely, and that at least one writer ought to give her something decent to do.

Aside from the poetry of murder by your twin sister, I just felt Caedus turned into an even whiner little sod than he was as Jacen. LOTF for me was a rehash of the prequel movies, and aside from some books (Revelation, Inferno, Sacrifice) I really didn't like it. The authors have destroyed some really decent characters in making a storyline that really didnt make sense to me. But I hope Invincible will be a good read, and that hopefully Millennium Falcon will be as well, once that is released.

~Sticks

 

Quite simply, The Bantam Era established these characters after the OT. So after almost a decade of characters growing from what we see in the movies, they then go of course in a fairly obvious way.

This isn't about it end the way people want it to (well, mostly anyway), it's about the direction the 'powers that be' have taken these characters in. In that, they have not really honoured all the attributes given to these characters in the Bantam Era.

Either that or I need another Jim Beam...=D

Eh, both sound pretty good to me.

 

and i'm still pissed.

 

No. That had impact and value for the ongoing story itself. Jacen's murder was just cheap theatrics to try and show that 'evil will always loose and drive you insane'.

Its crap. You can be evil and not insane. You can do evil deeds, but not be evil. Its a massive grey area. Not a clear cut black and white issue. The only slight justification for Jacen's insanity would be his agonizing over whether or not he might be required to sacrifice Tenel Ka or Ahlana, but other than one or two books, this was never touched on. The Dark Side doesn't make you insane. Palpatine wasn't insane. Nor was Vader.


This series shouldn't have gone one author at a time. Alliston should have written the first three books, then Traviss' three, then Denning's. There was very little collaboration between the books that I could tell. No consistency of characters (not even with the big three). The first two books started out with massive promise, the the last three tossed it all aside because "the bad guy must be insane". Characterization wasn't even in line with the NJO, let alone the Bantam era.

I'm not mad Jacen died. I wanted him to live, but expected him to die. I'm mad that this series couldn't even drop the ball, because it never picked the damn thing up to begin with.

 

I'm happy that Jaina was the one to finish off Caedus, not least because she's my favourite character. I think LOTF ruined her completely, and that at least one writer ought to give her something decent to do.

Though I'm not optimistic about her future. Many people seem to go with the whole IWOD theory. To me, that would be the final nail in her coffin. Yet another reason why I don't like J/J. (No shipping debates, please, I've had enough of them)

Aside from the poetry of murder by your twin sister, I just felt Caedus turned into an even whiner little sod than he was as Jacen. LOTF for me was a rehash of the prequel movies, and aside from some books (Revelation, Inferno, Sacrifice) I really didn't like it. The authors have destroyed some really decent characters in making a storyline that really didnt make sense to me. But I hope Invincible will be a good read, and that hopefully Millennium Falcon will be as well, once that is released.

Yeah. I for one like Betrayal, Tempest and Inferno. Actually, Sacrifice was not too bad either. Still, it was sad that Mara died. I've always loved her.

Anyway, I think pretty much everything in the Del Rey era has sucked the life out of Star Wars. If only there was some way to reverse the damage that has been done.

I'm not mad Jacen died. I wanted him to live, but expected him to die. I'm mad that this series couldn't even drop the ball, because it never picked the damn thing up to begin with.

I'm just sad that the happy-go-lucky boy from YJK who always played with animals is now dead.

You know, I think that I really hate LOTF now. As soon as the latest book came out, I would grab it and read it almost instantly. However, I bought Revelation a couple of months ago, but I still haven't read it. And considering what happens in Invincible, I'm having doubts as to whether I want to read that one either.


(sigh) I can't believe some people actually LIKE what has happened! To me, everything from Vector Prime onwards has just been so damned depressing!