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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Havac , Apr 13, 2008.

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  1. Emperor_Time

    Emperor_Time Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 31, 2007
    If you add Leia and Han dying too then it a deal. :D
     
  2. Sector15

    Sector15 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Mar 19, 2008
    We'll chuck Jaina and Ben in and have Solowalker kebab.[face_dancing]
     
  3. Lord_Boney

    Lord_Boney Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2007
    I'd like to see Jacen emerge victorious after Invincible. He's been defeated far too often, and needs a victory to confer some badly needed Sith legitimacy on him. But since this will never happen, I'd settle for having him defeat Luke but then be defeated by Jaina and run off to Ziost to learn more about the Sith and to increase his power.
     
  4. tjace

    tjace Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 11, 2008
    I'm glad someone is sticking up for Leia, because I feel that way too. Also, where is this vision in the book? I can't find it.
     
  5. ZanderSolo

    ZanderSolo Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 18, 2007
    In the Vision Luke has in Betrayal.

    As an aside, Best few paragraphs in the series IMO.
     
  6. Darth_Carl99

    Darth_Carl99 Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 16, 2008
    Same here.

    I don't have a problem with that, I actually understand that. It's all these people ONLY claiming Jacen is one of the weakest Sith lords of all time because he's getting beat all the time. When in fact he's often ONLY JUST getting beaten, and his winning would be the effective "final victory".

    If he defeats the confederation, he has the whole GA fleet to turn lose on Hapes and the Jedi, they'd both go down in a matter of days with all that hunting them. It would be Order 66 all over again.

    Jacen's done VERY well in reality, his failures show only how good his opponents are, not how weak he is since they would usually either give him the final win, or bring him much closer to such a total win.

    But many people insist his weaknesses show him as having Jar-Jar like incompetence, (I've actually seen someone claim Jar-Jar would make a better villain).

    In reality if you where to throw him up against all the other Sith Lords we know of, only a few would be able to beat him in an all out war like the current one, (the only two I can name with any certainty are Palpatine and Revan). Which is damm impressive in reality.
     
  7. Rouge77

    Rouge77 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    May 11, 2005
    The problem with this is that Jacen looks like a loser, because he... loses. Many of his defeats have been narrow defeats, but still, history - or more like those who write the history books - have a tendency to remember only the victors, not those who almost, but not quite, won.

    Why can Krayt mock Jacen, who almost certainly surpassed Krayt in everything when it came to Force powers, dueling abilities, and - based on what we have seen - commanding fleets? Jacen has also been accepted as a Sith Lord by the Dark Side, which might not be the case with Krayt. But still, it's Krayt who gets to mock Jacen, because he won and Jacen didn't.

    Krayt's a victor, even after he gets defeated and killed and his Sith Empire has fallen. Because he won and ruled his empire for years. How many actual victories has he had? The one against the IKs and the false Emperor. Yet that was enough.

    Jacen, on the other hand, has just lost and lost, fought one stalemate, and has then again and again survived to fight another day. He hasn't been able to finish any of the sides that are fighting against him. Yes, the pure ability to survive should perhaps make people to appreciate his powers. Yet, he is a loser, and will always be one, and the history will give it's judgment on him, and end up mocking him.

    And thus when Krayt mocks Jacen, he mocks the whole LotF through it's main villain. Like Jacen could have been a great Sith Lord, LotF might have been a great series, if Jacen would just have won something. But every time he lost, LotF lost. And so, before the final book, Jacen is a failure as a Sith Lord, and LotF is close to being a dud.

    Nine books about how Jacen might be a terrible dictator who could rule the whole galaxy with an iron fist is a bit too much, when it was almost certain from the beginning that that scenario had very little chance of coming true.

    Somebody should have told the folks at DR that one can also lose by winning one Pyrrhic victory too many - as narrow victories can in the long run be as devastating as narrow defeats. That way Jacen could have gotten his credentials as a believable villain and a Sith Lord, yet he would have also lost in the end.
     
  8. Emperor_Time

    Emperor_Time Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 31, 2007
    A Solowalker kebab sounds fine with me. :D
     
  9. Lank_Pavail

    Lank_Pavail Jedi Knight star 7

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    Sep 26, 2002
    Sorry to go off target but how, McEwok? Yoda beats Paply, who then wouldn't arrive in time to save Vader from being crispy fried corpse on the lava shore of Mustafar. Even presuming Yoda dies in the effort, Obi-wan and the 100 or so Jedi left are in little position to lead anything, certainly not a for a while. More likely, we'd seen a wider galactic civil war, with would be Imperialists, and Republicans fighting over control of the now leaderless clones and droid armies and causing even more chaos than the Clone Wars had. Most likely, the galaxy would still be splintered by the time Luke and Leia came of age. I can't really see the Jedi being able to make a concerted move toward stability, at least under Obi-wan's reluctant leadership, until that point.
     
  10. GrandMasterKatarn

    GrandMasterKatarn Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 8, 2008
    Ooh ooh ohh ... Can I have one, please?[face_praying]
     
  11. Emperor_Time

    Emperor_Time Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 31, 2007
    Sure, you can have one. :D
     
  12. GrandMasterKatarn

    GrandMasterKatarn Jedi Knight star 4

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    Feb 8, 2008
  13. Emperor_Time

    Emperor_Time Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 31, 2007
    No problem, just doing my job. :D
     
  14. GoA

    GoA Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Dec 7, 2007
    You know who Jacen reminds me of as a villain? Nom Anor. Not that the way they've been portrayed is the same, per se, but the fact that both sort of come across as more annoying than fearsome, and both have their schemes foiled and scamper away like cowards, rather than coming across as powerful beings.

    It worked for Nom Anor, because he was a .... side antagonist. It doesn't work for Jacen, because he's supposed to be the main villain.
     
  15. Jedi_Matt

    Jedi_Matt Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 11, 2002
    More than anything, what she was doing seemed more Vaapad like than Dark Side. If she ended up giving in to her bloodlust and killing unnecessarily then it'd be Sora Bulq all over again. I would have to read that part again but I really don't think it's as dark side as you put it.
     
  16. Emperor_Time

    Emperor_Time Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 31, 2007
    Does anyone think that the dark hair girl that Han kills in that vision is none other than his daughter Jaina. [face_worried]
     
  17. Furyan_Jedi_13

    Furyan_Jedi_13 Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    May 6, 2007
    What if we settle with both Zekk and Jagged Fel being killed.

    Ok, but on one condition. I get to go out with Jaina. Aaaaaaaalright.

    Fine with me, then it agreed.


    Eh. Whatever floats your boat.

    What if they all survive, but the boys become swingers instead, while leaving Jaina to her usual cranky ways?

    Does anyone think that the dark hair girl that Han kills in that vision is none other than his daughter Jaina.

    Now that would be SO screwed up! Not only is the last decent Solo child killed off, but the deed is done by the man who spawned the damned offspring in the first place!
     
  18. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    May 9, 2000
    Well, I was assuming that Yoda survived, and followed through the plan he'd discussed earlier with Mace. The surviving Jedi would take control of the Senate, using their allies as puppets in a sham democracy.

    Meanwhile, on Mustafar, Palpatine's defeat would have an effect in the Force, and might lead to a different outcome in the Vader/Kenobi duel? If Vader won, then Padme would be able to be healed, and would go into hiding with her husband.

    See. It's not the only option - your picture of anarchy is interesting - but it is one that I think could have unfolded. ;)

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
  19. beccatoria

    beccatoria Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2006
    Basically the vision occurs about three quarters of the way through the book. I have the UK version so it may not be the same as yours. There's the scene where Ben gets plucked out of the rail car when he and Jacen and Nelani and Brisha are all travelling towards Vectivus' place - where Brisha gets rid of Nelani and Ben to get Jacen on his own.

    Then there's a firefight scene with Han, Leia and Wedge.

    Then we get the scene with Luke's vision.

    It's interesting that he sees the overly intelligent mynocks, who are obviously in both Betrayal and Fury. The Mynock tells him that to act is to betray and to not act is to betray, then he tells him the Sith are not who he thinks. Then he sees Leia buckling over with inexpressable grief saying, "Dark, dark, I will not be afraid of the dark," then he sees Han stabbing a dark haired girl, "I loved you in my own way, I would have repaired the harm I did you." Then he sees Mara cut up with a lightsaber.

    It's interesting that of all the visions, it's only Leia that he's sure is actually a literal representation of Leia. The visions of Han, the Mynock and Mara are all stated to be things he feels might be representational. Certainly the vision of Mara isn't 100% accurate since she died in a lightsaber fight, but not of any lightsaber wounds.

    The mynock is a representation of Lumiya and perhaps later Alema? I'd love to find a complicated philosophical answer in "the Sith are not who you think," but I think it's probaby fairly simple: the way Lumiya confused him with her behaviour and that Jacen ends up becoming one. The part about acting and not acting could be construed as commentary on a civil war?

    I still have no idea about how to incorporate the vision of Han either metaphorically or not.

    And it's true that Luke said all the visions might never come to pass, but I hope that the vision of Leia grieving isn't simply fulfilled by her intense grief at her loss of Jacen, simply because her words are so intriguing. [face_thinking]

    I really hope there are scenes that can fill this prophecy in Invincible.
     
  20. GrandMasterKatarn

    GrandMasterKatarn Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 8, 2008
    I hope so. As Emperor_Time above asked, yes, I do think that the dark haired woman is Jaina, and that Han would kill her if he thought she went Sith.
     
  21. Chimpo_the_Sith

    Chimpo_the_Sith Jedi Knight star 5

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    Mar 15, 2003
    I really hope that Jaina won't die.
     
  22. JediPadawan007

    JediPadawan007 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Nov 1, 2007
    I?m so sick of ?light side? endings.

    I?m behind Jacen 110%!
    Come on Caedus lay the smack down on Jaina! rout the Jedi order! & collect Niathals bulbous head!
     
  23. Master_Keralys

    Master_Keralys VIP star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 2003
    Interesting, Becca. Thanks for the refresh. I think I'd actually like for all of those things to not come true - for Jacen to have prevented them by the actions he takes when he chooses this dark path. Much as he'll have chosen not to kill Luke by taking this path. It was the only future he saw where Luke didn't die by his hand - notably, not the only future where he didn't try to kill Luke. I think it would be interesting if Jacen was right: that this was the path he needed to take, however horrible, and that it prevented something far worse from happening.

    We'll see just how it unfolds in a month, of course, but that would fascinate me immensely. [face_thinking]

    - Keralys
     
  24. beccatoria

    beccatoria Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2006
    Oh, absolutely.

    Since I'm convinced Luke won't die, I think the implications of Jacen having succeeded in his stated goal are amazing.

    Which is one of the reasons I really don't want Jaina-as-Luke to die. Quite aside from my horror at the wasting of her character, it would be a real cheap way to get out of a situation that is otherwise totally win-win.

    Either Luke is killed by Jacen thus providing an amazing EU moment and showing that Jacen only caused his visions to occur. Or Luke is not killed by Jacen and Jacen saved Luke from death by becoming a Sith. Freaking awesome in its complexities!

    Having the visions come true so he was wrong but also managing to save Luke is the least interesting option to me.

    As to none of the visions coming true: that is a very interesting notion on side of Jacen having succeeded on some level.

    I guess that because Mara is dead and he saw Mara dead I'm of the impression that the visions are at least broadly accurate, but yes, it's certainly worth remembering that she died in a different way than the one Luke foresaw. [face_thinking]

    Wow I'm jittery about this book release! It's like I felt waiting for RoTS or the last Harry Potter book... [face_worried]
     
  25. ZanderSolo

    ZanderSolo Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 18, 2007
    Then i still get to pick up where they left off :)

    And maybe Han DOES stab Jaina. In Betrayal, Luke and Han were only barely on speaking terms, IIRC, because of Han's attitude with Luke his friend vs. Luke the Grand Master. So maybe Luke masks Jaina as himself, and Han, upon seeing Luke(Jaina) about to kill Jacen, stabs Jaina thinking it is Luke.

    Dun Dun Dun (M. Night Shyamalan) WHAT A TWIST!!!!
     
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