The Official Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by dp4m, Apr 30, 2007.

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  1. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    Riiiiiight, but that was with luck and lack of training. He still had the mentors around until a long, long time after that. He was also the Chosen One, which -- while Ben is descended from him -- Ben is not. Ben's just not at where the story would dictate he would need to be in order to take down Jacen by Book IX at this point.
  2. Jedimarine Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 13, 2001
    star 5
    Oh I agree.

    But was Jacen any more where we thought he needed to be in NJO?

    Is Cade the right hero in Legacy?

    Look at the Quinlan Vos mythos or the Kyle stuff...a Luke clone is not in the works, nor is it likely.

    There isn't another Luke because there never will be another Luke.

    I think the argument for who "could" take down Jacen ENDS with Luke...if Luke dies, it becomes not "who" but "how many" will it take.

    I'd say Mara, Ben, Jaina all together, with Leia close at hand...and even then "ghost Luke" will make a dramatic intervention.

    Edit: Another thing to consider was the readiness of Luke to deal with Vader and Palps...easy to forget how green and unequal to that challenge he was. It was more his relationship with Anakin then his capability that won the day. He made one romantically foolish stand (don't percieve as negative), and it unfolded in the most unlikely and fortunate way.

    Perhaps the unworthiness of Ben to tackle Jacen is the point.
  3. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    Yes, I would argue that all of the Solo kids were fine at the beginning of NJO, considering they were all Knighted at the end of YJK and Anakin was close behind.

    Even if everyone forgot that at the begnning of the series. [face_GriffZ]
  4. Darth_Lex Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 17, 2002
    star 4
    Actually, I think Jaina absolutely has been set up as the next Jedi hero. It's the fans who are obsessed with her love life, not Jaina herself.

    Dark Nest is all about establishing Jaina as a true selfless Jedi, in contrast to Jacen's selfish proto-Sithdom. Every choice Jacen makes in DN is motivated by his belief in his own self-importance: getting a Hapan fleet, impregnating an old friend, seeking to engineer genocide of the Killiks, betraying his parents' mission at Tenupe to Jag... By contrast, Jaina follows her Jedi duty: risking her own personality to stay and protect the Killiks, refusing to blame all the nests for the crimes of a few, trying to shoot down an old friend on the opposing side... Dark Nest also shows Luke's moral compass isn't always as strong as it should be (authorizing Cilghal to torture the Jedi Joiners to reveal the Gorog influence, using human shields in combat, refusing to listen to criticism of Jacen, etc), while Jaina makes the correct moral choice every time.

    The first four books of LOTF have continued this pattern. Jaina does her duty and follows her conscience, even at great personal cost to herself. She serves on a mission against Corellia, even though she doubts whether it's the right policy. She reminds her father that she's a fighter pilot, and flying combat missions is what she does - even if she's not sure the politicians are making the right calls. But she disobeys a technically lawful order to fire on an opposing freighter when she knows Jacen's motivations are dark, and doesn't even contest the court-martial. She knows Jacen can't be trusted, and tells Luke rather than keeping secrets. Unlike her twin, she knows what being a Jedi means, and doesn't flinch from it.

    [BTW, not once in any of that does Jaina let her love life (or lack thereof) get in the way of her duty. Not once in Dark Nest does her Joining with Zekk get in the way of doing what she needs to do. (In fact, at times she shuts him out to ensure it.) And not once in LOTF so far has Jaina failed to carry out her duty because she was distracted by Zekk or Jag. Does she muse about her unlucky love life at times? Sure. But unlike her grandfather, it never gets in the way of her duty or moral compass. That's hardly cheesy soap opera quality romance...]

    Who is Stover's "Ultimate Jedi" in the ROTS novelization? Obi-Wan Kenobi. But he was reluctant even to join the Jedi Council during the Clone Wars, and always defers to Mace and Yoda. Even when there were only two Jedi left in the whole galaxy as far as they knew, he deferred to Yoda.

    Jaina's characterization as another Ultimate Jedi is already well established, if subtle. So far the main characterization development has been Jacen becoming a Sith, and Ben struggling with his moral compass under Jacen's influence. It doesn't take a lot of page time to establish the characterization of a duty-bound Jedi with a solid moral compass.

    Has she taken a lead role in LOTF? Of course not. That's the point of my earlier posts. Jaina hasn't become the lead hero because she doesn't have to.

    Yet.

    But she is more than ready, and when Luke Skywalker is no longer around as Sith Defeater #1, she's already poised to take his place.
  5. beccatoria Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2006
    star 4
    I have to agree about Jaina's love life - it's really not the big deal everyone's making it out to be. It usually doesn't get vast tracts of whole books devoted to it. I think her "not-interested" speech to Zekk took all of a couple of paragraphs in SBS? Her relationship with Jag doesn't really stop her from any of her Jedi duties in NJO. As Lex pointed out, her joining with Zekk if anyting isn't romantic. And we get, what, a few sentences in various scenes and some character interaction regarding her past long-term relationship with Jag in Dark Nest? - that's continuity and characterisation.

    Let's compare with Luke. Between the ages of about 18 and 38, so 20 years, Luke's major love interests include his own sister, Lumiya, Jem Ysanna, Gaeriel Captison, Mara Jade, Callista, and Akannah, and those are just the ones I know about. Even cutting a couple - I'm willing to admit that Lumiya has only become important in retrospect - he had a long on-off flirtation with the character he eventually married (Mara), a serious but doomed relationship (Callista), and a totally inappropriate mutual infatuation (Leia). Plus a bunch of others he really seemed to care for - like Jem and Akannah.

    Between 14 and 32, so, 18 years a comparable amount, Jaina's only had three characters you could classify as love interests - Jag, Zekk and Kyp. Kyp roughly aligns with Leia in that it's presented as an inappropriate mutual infatuation. If she ends up with Jag, well then, he aligns to "it took a long time to get there, but now we're married!"-Mara, and Zekk, I suppose counts as the various other love interests Jaina cares about but is never seriously going to end up with. Actually if Jaina ends up with Jag then it's entirely possible she was never even interested in Zekk like that at all. Either way, she has WAAAAY fewer romantic interests than Luke, and is either trailing him a whole serious relationship, or a boatload of dalliances AND a serious relationship.

    If she ends up with Zekk, then I guess Zekk's the on-off flirtation/marriage Mara-analogue, while Jag would stand in for the serious-but-doomed Callista. Either way, Jaina still trails Luke by a ways.

    I think perhaps the problem is that Luke was ALSO out doing the biggest, baddest acts of heroism in the galaxy. While Jaina, as astutely noted by Lex, doesn't want that spotlight and isn't going to assume it until she has to. So her heroics, impressive as they are, will always pale in comparison to Luke's. The only plotline monopoly she does have is on the romance angle, even though it doesn't actually take up much of her time.

    I mean, it's Jag and Zekk that are making a big deal out of it in Exile. Jaina strikes me as genuinely wanting to get on with the mission.
  6. Vongoid Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2002
    star 2
    ^ agreed. But for Jaina to take that spot, Luke needs to die. Soon.
  7. Rouge77 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2005
    star 5
    Did Yoda had to die so that Obi-wan could become "the Ultimate Jedi"?o_O

    No.[face_shame_on_you]

    Same with Luke and Jaina.[face_plain]
  8. Darth_Lex Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 17, 2002
    star 4
    You missed my point.

    Obi-Wan was already the Ultimate Jedi at the beginning of the book. Despite the fact that there were "more important" Jedi on the Council (Yoda and Mace), Obi-Wan was destined to be the greatest Jedi hero among them.

    Similarly, the fact that Jaina seems to have played a less important role than Luke so far in LOTF does not in any way preclude her from becoming a major hero as soon as the moment arises. She is already established as an Ultimate Jedi, even though (like Obi-Wan) she hasn't yet been called to fill the role...

    The difference between LOTF and ROTS is the role of Luke in the new Jedi Order compared to Yoda (or Mace) in the old one. The first combat mission Yoda takes in the PT is going to fight the Emperor - after Order 66. (After Mace's first - failed :p - combat mission onscreen in the PT, arresting the same man.) Luke, by contrast, handles all the biggest missions himself, including the Killik crisis during DN and the hunt for Lumiya in Tempest and Exile. As long as Luke is still around to assign himself all of the crucial missions, there is no opportunity for Jaina to step up. Which is why, if I'm right that she's already built into the Ultimate Jedi, Luke has to be removed from the picture...
  9. Jamez Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2005
    star 1


    [:D] I couldn't agree more!

    Let's hope the authors agree with you and give her more page time. If she is to be the heroine than she'll need to have a duel in one of Denning's books.

    My opinion.
  10. Kyptastic VIP

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2005
    star 5
    This is probably why Alema is still around - she's a test for either Jaina or Ben before fighting Jacen to see if they are good enough.
  11. Rouge77 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2005
    star 5
    By going after Lumiya, Luke acted like Yoda in ROTS. Jaina got Alema Rar, like Obi-wan got Anakin. Rather crucial mission for Jaina, especially as Alema is after her family.

    So Jaina had her opportunity and could not use it in Exile, even when she had lots of help. Why we should then take her as a believable new leading hero, who could go on herself to fight Jacen, Lumiya and Alema (and win)? How the death of Luke would suddenly make a difference?

    I think it most likely that Jaina will continue to play second fiddle for the duration of the entire series.
  12. Darth_Lex Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 17, 2002
    star 4
    Yes, and who won that fight? [face_whistling]

    It also goes to show that Luke is misunderstanding the threat. Yoda can't beat Sidious; victory can only come from the Chosen One. In LOTF, the real threat isn't Lumiya - it's Jacen. But Luke is too blind to see it. Jaina, on the other hand, already knows just how dangerous her brother is...

    The better analogy, I think, is that Jaina's mission to hunt Alema is like sending Obi-Wan after Grievous earlier in ROTS. The Jedi needed Obi-Wan on hand to fight Sidious (when he revealed himself) and, more importantly, to keep Anakin under control so that the Chosen One can help them. (Instead, Mace has to tell Anakin to stay behind. If Obi-Wan had been there, they could have brought Anakin along...) Just like the "Jedi trap" that draws Obi-Wan away from Anakin to assure he can be turned, Alema's presence is drawing Jaina off on a "wild bantha chase" when in fact the real threat is Jacen... [face_devil]

    Go read that scene again. Alema is cocky enough to go toward Zekk, thinking she might kill him. When Corran reveals himself, she's not deterred in the least - she just drops a chandelier and scoots away. Then Leia shows up, and Alema starts to run.

    And then Alema sees Jaina coming - and she jumps into a turbolift shaft and gets the heck outta Dodge! [face_laugh] [face_laugh] The message is entirely clear - Alema isn't afraid for her life until Jaina shows up. ;)
  13. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    Yeah... I can't think of one notable thing Jaina has done to distinguish herself as a hero, other than getting herself in trouble to the point where she got her brother killed or getting herself in trouble to the point where she almost got her other brother killed which led to Vergere getting killed (so that's a plus!)...

    Getting lured into the Killik War on the side of the Killiks?
    Doing pirate chasing missions in the Outer Rim? (gee, isn't that what Kyp was doing pre-VP when he was "rogue?")

    Sure, she's out of the service now since her brother got her kicked out which will free up more of her time for Jediing around the galaxy... but how does that compare to what Luke accomplished as he was Knighted? Leia (the first resl time when facing down Palpatine Reborn)? Heck, even Kyp, Tionne, Streen, Cilghal, etc...
  14. Jamez Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2005
    star 1

    I tend to disagree. I rather Jaina kill or duel Lumiya before she takes on Jacen. Alema seems to be a perfect "sacrifice" for Leia.
  15. Darth_Lex Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 17, 2002
    star 4
    Because Jaina won't hold back from confronting Jacen. Right now she's holding back because she's deferring to Luke. She's told Luke how dangerous Jacen is as far back as Bloodlines. In the final scene of Tempest she's furious at Luke for not confronting Jacen more directly. And in Exile when the Gilatter situation goes down the tubes, it's H/L and L/M who go after Jacen, and Jaina is conspicuously absent.

    Jaina is deferring to Luke's leadership out of respect. When he's gone, she'll set the tone. And if Luke dies at Jacen's hand, it will be a tragic "I told you so" for her...

    Saving the Killiks from genocide.

    Leading outmatched squadrons against the Chiss for two years.

    Almost singlehandedly winning the ground battle on Tenupe.

    Shooting down an entire squadron of clawcraft to stop the parasite bomb.

    Refusing Jacen's order to start a war.

    Risking her life to warn Tenel Ka about a coup attempt.

    Yeah, nothing heroic there at all. :rolleyes:

    In case you missed the point of the entire Dark Nest trilogy, Jaina was right about the Killik threat. The Gorog nest that was the problem, not the Killiks as a whole. The Chiss genocidal war - which Jacen tried repeatedly to instigate and support - was the wrong solution. The opposition of the twins was foreshadowing for LOTF, plain and simple. Jacen's choices were evil; Jaina's were right.
  16. Havac Former Moderator

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2005
    star 7
    Anakin had his chance at Dooku, with help, in AOTC and couldn't use it. Didn't mean everything was over. I wouldn't be surprised if we had another case of parallel duels in Sacrifice -- Alema goes down soon, I think. Doesn't mean it has to be Jaina to do it, but Exile hardly rules her out.
  17. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    Fighting on the side of the Killiks isn't heroic and does virtually nothing to save them. It's willfully disobeying orders (how did she end up back in the service again?) as well as not seeing the forest from the trees.

    Plus, do we have 100% confirmation she wasn't, in fact, an actual Joiner?

    Not firing on Jacen's order was the right thing to do, but not heroic.

    etc, etc, etc...
  18. dianethx Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 1, 2002
    star 6
    I'd have to strongly disagree with you about the heroic part. I think having the courage to stand up and do the right thing when you are being completely pressured to do the wrong thing and then getting punished for it is very heroic. In fact, I'm not a big fan of Jaina's but that was one of the things that really stood out for me.
  19. AnnLouise Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2005
    star 3
    I don't think it would be indercut - more like distraction. HP has a book and movie coming out this summer - this is another SW book. Yes, SW has a huge fanbase; I just think at this time HP has a broader general audience. So the movie and book will feed off each other.
  20. JediLaw Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2001
    star 3
    Hmmm . . . I'm not thinking that Luke is going to die in this novel (maybe that's because I don't want Luke to die in this novel). I could live with Mara being brought down in this one, though. Without Mara, maybe we could have a return of the brash hero Luke from the Marvel series!!!!

    Or even more intriguing, what if Ben is the one dealt with by Jacen?? Think about it, Ben is/was Jacen's apprentice and destroying him would truly be a "sacrifice".

    Besides, I don't think that Jacen COULD kill Luke. Yeah, he may be older, but he is the son of the Chosen one and knows some Darkside tricks too!
  21. StaryKnight Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2006
    star 4
    A family has already been destroyed by betrayls and secrets(just as Lumiya had planned) and that same family has already faced the brink when two very important members died in the line of duty. And that was when the enemy was an alien threat, not from one of their own.
  22. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    True, but Jacen's the grandson of the Chosen One and far more prone to using those Dark Side tricks than Luke is. I mean, I don't want Luke to die either, but if anyone can do it, I'd think it would be a Skywalker who has turned.
  23. StaryKnight Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2006
    star 4
    ^^There is a whole galaxy of participants willing to do the deed than a Skywalker turned dark.
  24. JediLaw Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2001
    star 3
    Hmmm . . . you may have a point. I guess that Luke, in his current semi-pacifist state could be defeated by a Dark Skywalker heir. But a pre-Thrawn Trilogy Luke (Meaning a Marvel comics Luke) could learn from his mistakes and defeat a sithly Jacen. Remember, he defeated Vader AND Lumiya . . . no small feat.
  25. DarthRotten Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2003
    star 4
    I like to compare Jaina Solo with Buffy Summers. Jaina knows she is the "Sword of the Jedi". She is naturally worried that this precludes her from a serious relationship or a family of her own. Consequently, she throws herself into her role as a fighter pilot and a law enforcement Jedi rather than her destined role as an ultimate Jedi warrior. This way she feels she is still contributing but is still resisting being a living weapon. Likewise, Buffy has run from her destiny several times but it always ends up finding her and forcing her back to where she needs to be. I think Jaina is on the verge of a similar situation. Her brother's fall to darkness will finally force her to embrace her destiny. Coming to terms with that destiny while still trying to have a life will be the challenge.
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