Discussion in 'Literature' started by dp4m, Apr 30, 2007.
No, Yoda lost the Dooku duel. Battles are fought with specific goals in mind, not wanton killing. The person or army that succeeds in their goal wins the battle. Yoda did not achieve his goal, Dooku did.
Yoda's Goal: Save Obi-wan and Anikin
Dooku's Goal: Kill them.
Yoda won. Dooku ran.
I find the lack of spoilers disturbing.
I suppose that's a reasonable argument. You could argue that Obi-Wan and Anakin were trying to stop Dooku and failed, and that Yoda primarily went to save them, and only secondarily to stop Dooku. When the choice came between saving them and trying to stop Dooku from escaping, he opted to save them, and succeeded at that.
Mind you, that's kind of a poorly-thought-out goal on Yoda's part. Stopping Dooku and stopping the war is much more important than the lives of two Jedi, and the two Jedi in question, were they conscious, would certainly have agreed with that. So would Yoda in ESB, when he tells Luke that he needs to be willing to let his friends die in service of the cause they're all fighting for in the first place.
This, however, is poppycock. Dooku wasn't trying to kill Obi-Wan and Anakin as a primary goal. He was fleeing and they were in pursuit. When he had a chance to kill them, he gave it a shot, because, hey, two more dead Jedi, but he never took his eyes off the main goal: getting out and rallying the Separatists for the war. He succeeded.
I can accept the idea that Dooku vs. Yoda would be a draw.
Are Youk Kidding Me? Jaina was all about Helping reynar do whatever the hell he wanted. And she didnt save the killiks from Genocide.
In the End it was Luke, Mara, and Jacen that stopped the Killicks form beeing a threat to all civilization. Jaina did next to nothing. In Case you kind of forgot the Chiss turned out to be right. No Matter what the heros did the Killiks were going to keep expanding Unu thul was an unatureal result Jedi interfearince with a species socio-evolutionary traits.
It was gorg that was jut the problem it was Rayanr. His Mind was unable to accept the truth even when it was staring him in the face. and the Gorg was too linked with his sub concious.
The Chiss were right in their assesment of the Killik threat.
Jacen was right in the fact that raynar had to be removed (though lots love to forget that)
And Luke was right in his removal of raynar by non lethal means.
This was mostly done while Jaina was sulking, pouting, and acting like a child.
as for Risking her life to war Tenel Ka, How and when? I didnt see her in any mortal danger till she went to the Gallaney estate and got ambushed. That was after the waring, and Tenel Ka already figured that much out on her own.
And As for Not Starting a war. Thoes Ships were warned of the concquences of running the Blocade. they chose to run it anyway. To Aid a A government who triest to arm a Sunbuster weapon.
They knew the consequnces, that Jaina chose to not to kill the shows she has good chracter, but It dosent make her a hero.
What Makes you think he is simply a dabbler? that he hasnt gone in great depth?
I find in incredible that people can pull what happed for nearly half a decade, in what amonts to a short argument between him and one of his teachers.
This is the biggest load of bull I've seen since lats ive been on a farm.
Jaina Pretects the Killiks not to preserve life, but the fact taht they make her feel good. In Many ways her actions mirrio Alema Rar
Jacen ia requested by the other Jedi to Aski Tenel Ka for a fleet.
He Sleeps with Tenel Ka, because he loves the girl, and she really needed him. How is this selfish? Especaily since througt book one Jacen dosent so much have any personal investment in the Killiks I seriously doubt he even Likes them. he only dose it for his Sister and the myrkr team.
In Dark Nest she is a selfish little rayanr thrall for most of the sreies. The Killiks absorbed to full noble Houses(And whatever planet they are one, sho who kows hown many Vassles and commoners) and they are wrong in trying to defend themslves?
thsi entire paragraph is ludiacris.
I think Sacrifice will be the first major thing I go unspoiled for. I'll certainly try anyway, but I'm horribly weak. This thread is like a piece of chocolate cake, tempting me with it's goodness. MUST....RESIST...!
Yeah, I'm gone once somebody says they have the book.
I thought that Dooku was kind of a lame character to begin with; I thought he lacked the certain whatever that makes you able to take him seriously as a villian and then there's the name-what is that? sounds like a breakfast cereal.
They should have extended Darth Maul's tenure. He was quick, awesome looking, and scary as hell. Gone far too quickly.
Anyway, regarding Sacrifice, would it be too much of a stretch to suggest that Jacen himself is the Sacrifice? If not him I would probably predict Mara, since she would be the "shatterpoint" for Luke (as previously discussed) and it would really challenge his faith to be able to maintain his "Jedi"-ness and not try to strangle Jacen for such a deed.
I think regardless of the outcome Jacen is thoroughly immersed in the darkness and for pretty much selfish reasons. I don't think he has the genuine concern for family/friends that Anakin had as a way to pull him back to the Light side. So he's probably going to end up unredeemed, and in Star Wars hell eventually. But since I never got attached to his character, I don't really care *shrug*
I'd like to wonder what would have happened had it been Jacen, or HFIL, even better LUKE, who had been in the trenches on Tenupe..
Jaina may have been an integral part of the battle, but I think either of the guys would likely eclipse her in terms of sheer (sorry for the pun) force, drawing off the colony, etc. The battle would have been a slaughter ala (which book was it?) NJO when Luke and the Solos were in ground combat against all those Vong disposables.
Actually, I think that Han's the least likely, particularly since it's Traviss writing Sacrifice. IIRC, she wrote in Bloodlines something like 'In the years to come he remembered...' from Han's POV. Now, I'm pretty sure that the major deaths, if any, have been planned in advance when laying out the series, so having him die would be a pretty big boo-hoo both from Traviss and from the editor(s).
Your comment is a perfect example of how, IMO, many people are misreading the Solo twins' characterizations in DN and LOTF.
Jacen has acquired an incredible amount of Force learning at this point, but there is very little evidence that much, if any, of it has to do with combat skills. His role in DN is primarily interpersonal and political, not military. The attack on Supply Depot Thrago is the only mission he leads. When he does fight, usually alongside Jaina, there is nothing to suggest he is a more powerful combatant than her.
Jaina, on the other hand, plays primarily a military role in DN. She leads squadrons in all three books, as well as an extended ground battle on Tenupe. She is not an interpersonal manipulator or political player; she's a soldier and commander. Jaina, not Jacen, is the warrior in the Killik war.
[Edit: Also, let's not forget what they were doing in the five years between the NJO and DN. Jacen was off on his Force knowledge quest. Learning. Jaina was fighting pirates and other bad guys in military/law enforcement (a/k/a combat) situations. Fighting. Whatever their relatives skills were at the end of TUF, Jacen spent five years as a scholar. Jaina spent five years as a warrior. That makes a huge difference in their relative skills by the time DN even begins.]
These roles continue into LOTF. Jacen has some action sequences in Betrayal, but after that he participates in a handful of combat scenes, all short. The rest of what he's doing is political, manipulating the GA and his family while learning from Lumiya. In the aggregate, Jacen is hardly an action hero in LOTF; in fact (especially after Betrayal) his action sequences are the exception, not the rule, and he only engages in them when it suits his purposes (the blockade incident in Bloodlines; commanding from the bridge of the Anakin Solo in Tempest). He is a political leader first, a warrior only derivatively.
Jaina, by contrast, appears almost entirely in military and action scenes. She has action sequences in Betrayal too (Coronet, Toryaz Station, Tralus). In Bloodlines she appears as a flight officer in every scene she's in, even off-duty. (When she greets her parents on their return to Coruscant, she's conspicuously in uniform.) In Tempest she has an extended action sequence at the Ducha's palace, much longer than Jacen's brief duel with Aurra Sing. In Exile she is tasked on the hunt for Alema Rar. Everything about her is military or Jedi warrior. She is not playing politics, galactic or familial. Like she tells Han in Bloodlines, she's a fighter pilot (and Jedi Knight); that's who she is, plain and simple.
The notion that Jacen is a stronger combatant than Jaina has no direct support in the action sequences of the last seven books. Instead, the notion is based on the faulty inference that because Jacen may have more knowledge of the Force than Jaina, he could beat her in single combat. Jacen is a philosopher and a scholar. He is not a trained, proven soldier/warrior, as Jaina is. Not by a long shot.
Perhaps in a duel of pure Force skill, Jacen would be more talented (right now). But in a lightsaber battle, or other combat scenario (especially the cockpit), Jaina is superior. When there's a showdown between the twins (not if, when), each of them will be trying to have it on the battlefield where they hold the advantage.
I'm surprised nobody has brought up the tidbits from the Insider magazine...two pages of Karen Traviss chatting about Sacrifice...
Then you can yourself reveal all about the interview to us.
Jacen In the Dark Nest trilogy infiltrated the Hapan Fountain Palace security, enterd the Gardens. Incapacitated a Guard with something akin to the Vulcan Nerve Pinch. When hapan security was activly trying to keep him away from Tenel Ka.
She leads a squad of Joiners, And after Luke brakes them up she leads Zekk. thats about it.
Yes Im Sure the Aiing-tii monks, Jensaarai, and Dathmori Force witches did not teach anything martial to Jacen even though both Witches and Jenaasari are distinctly Martial in nature, and despite the fact that they handle local conflicts and threats in their terratories.
Im Sure The Aiing-tii monks just euphoricly meditated as well, it's not like thay constantly attack slaver in the Kathol rift or anything like that.
Jacen Takes out a Darksider with over 5 jedi Kinght/Master kills in a fight that might have lasted what 35-68 seconds? While distracted, and restraining himslef so Allana got no DS vibes from him.
In Betray He get sent in to the Hairest fighting on Centerpint and He 2 mans it with a 13 year old boy, and his only back up. Shows incredible infiltartion, eveasion, and attacking skills on Both members of that team.
Fights are often nasty brutal and short, The factthat few fighters are even able to stand upt to him for more that a few seconds dentoe hsi skill. 15 Minute Mustaffar type brawls are are for Visual media only. Even In Martial arts movies (The Good ones like Bruce Lee) even the most skilled fight between Higly skilled fighters going at it to the death bearly last 5 muinits.
I'm gonna highlight for novelty, so nobody else gets spoiled if they've accidentally clicked here/momentarily been overwhelmed by temptation.
[hl=black]I read that Lumiya and Luke cross blades again, and Lumiya and Alema have an arguement near the start about the Solos and Skywalkers, which apparently shows a new side to Lumiya as an Imperial as well as a Sith. The rest is waffle about RC: True Colours and how 'even if you know the facts, the in-between you don't and thats whats interesting' and so forth. I didn't buy the magazine to avoid temptation, but it mentioned Ben gets more involved.[/hl]
Your examples, by the way, just prove my point. Jacen is not a warrior. At best, he's a spy - or assassin. He relies on stealth, treachery, and cunning - not brute strength. The simple fact that he draws on the dark side, and intends to use Force lightning, in the duel with Aurra Sing proves that combat techniques are not his forte - because they are a sign of desperation and panic. If he were actually skilled in combat, he wouldn't need to fall back on Force tricks to beat her.
And you're wrong about Jaina's role outside the cockpit. She leads a massive ground battle on Tenupe in TSW. She leads the kidnap operation in Coronet in Betrayal. She and Zekk escape long odds at the Ducha's palace in Tempest. And in Exile we see her - conspicuously, I might add - practicing her saber techniques with Zekk. She is far from just a fighter pilot; she is a formidable soldier as well.
Jaina is a professional, all-around warrior. Jacen is not.
And why did I say conspicuously practicing her saber techniques? Because there's a subtle thread in Tempest and Exile about Jacen's relative weakness in that regard. For one, Jacen can't beat Aurra Sing in a straight saber duel. He has to use Force techniques, and needs help from a four year old to win. More notable is the repeated references that Ben is not as skilled with a lightsaber as he should be. The accidental slicing of Zekk on the Falcon should never have happened, if Ben had adequate training. At the beginning of Exile, Ben has a lightsaber training session with Luke. Why? Because he admits he needs work. He then trains alone, when he meets Seha. While he's on his mission to retrieve the amulet, Ben also muses about his lack of sophistication with the lightsaber. Now, why would that be? Because Jacen is his master, and Jacen isn't focused on combat techniques. Jacen teaches Ben what he thinks is important for Ben to learn. If he considered saber technique important, he'd teach it. But he hasn't. Which fits exactly with what I said above - Jacen does not rely on straight up combat. (By comparison, do you seriously think any apprentice of Jaina's wouldn't be fully trained with a lightsaber?)
In a Yoda-Sidious in the Senate chamber style Force duel, Jacen could win. In a Kenobi-Vader on Mustafar style duel, Jaina wins.
For another reason, too. Even if Jacen is "stronger" in combined talent (Force skills plus combat prowess) - which I don't think he is (Jaina is weaker in Force skill but stronger in combat prowess) - the "stronger" Jedi/Sith does not always win. Obi-Wan Kenobi kills two Sith Lords, and by all rights he was the weaker party both times. Both Maul and ROTS Vader allowed their arrogance and overconfidence to cloud their judgment, and got sliced up because of it. At this point in LOTF, Jacen Solo has many of the same Sith traits, including arrogance and overconfidence in his own power. It only takes one slip for a Jedi as powerful as Jaina to beat him...
I have to disagree. Jacen uses the Force in combat not because he can't use a saber, but because it's simpler to use his massive Force abilities. When Palpatine wanted to convert Sedriss to serve him, he challenged Sedriss to a fight, because Sedriss wouldn't respect anyone he could beat. Immediately upon Sedriss's acceptance, Palpatine slammed him into the floor and crushed him to within an inch of death, until he wasn't just agreeing to serve him -- he was begging. Are you going to tell me that proves Palpatine was an inferior duelist to Sedriss?
When you can fry someone all to hell, why would you bother going saber-to-saber and drawing it out? Jacen has shown that he's no slouch -- he's not Luke, but he's no slouch. The fact that he relies on the Force in combat simply means that he has access to powers which he finds useful in combat. Does Jaina surpass Jacen in technical lightsaber skills? I'd suppose so. However, the problem is that you're assuming the fight takes place in a vacuum. Unless someone brings in an ysalamir, it's not going to be just straight technical saber skills against saber skills. The Force is going to come into it. Does anyone really think that Anakin's technical saber skills surpassed those of Dooku? Yet he took him out, because he had greater reserves of Force power to draw on. With great Force power and skill, which Jacen has, comes the ability to engage in combat at a higher level. This isn't to say that Jacen is guaranteed a victory. But it is to say that guaranteeing Jaina a victory in a saber-clashing fight as opposed to an object-chucking one is an overstatement.
According to Dark Lord, Palpatine states that the only reason Sith carry a lightsaber is to mock the Jedi. Sith would prefer to only use the force in battle. That is where their strength lies. Jacen doesn't need to be a good lightsaber duelist. If he can use the force, he will be a powerful Sith.
Back to the reason this whole forum was posted.......... (sory for the critisism but this was supposed to about sacrifice but it somehow divirged to how may fights yada and obi wan fought....)
In regards to the whole "who is the sacrifice?" issue
i personally believe it will be mara. My reasoning is as before mentioned she is on the cover and it could be a marketing ploy but the main reason i believe she is the sacrifice is because of luke's prescient dream on courosant in Betrayal. "Now her(mara's) eyes were open staring sightlessly upward her body cut and butchered the edges still black and steaming by a lightsaber-blade" (direct quote) since timothy zahn has already done the cop-out of her "broken body floating among rocks" in vision of the future i sincerely doubt that they will have the vision not come true or simply say "the force is always in motion" they got away with that she-is-gonna-die-but-not-really thing before so i think they wont try again. Plus luke on the back of the book looks like he has been not sleeping/crying for a long time(see bags under eyes)
my close second is leia. although this may be biased from the fact that i never really liked her because of the constant "I am not doing politics ever again (for the eighty third time.....)" But aside from my little grudge yet again quoting from luke's corusant prescient dream "leia her features smoothed by greif so great it could not be expressed fell forward folding over as she did " some may think that this may mean that she is dying of greif or some crap like that because han died.
As far as han goes i don't think he is the sacrifice because in the same dream it mentions him stabbing some woman although it may happen before the sacrifice i don't think they will introduce and kill a character that causes han to have "great regret on his face" as he kills her
I personally don't think luke will die because almost every time some1 has a force vision they are the ones who actually physically see it meaning that he has to see marra be killed(see mara is sacrifice speculations above)[the supposition about the force visions and the one who seees them may be false but that is my personal opinion]Although he does look rather force-ghost-ish on the cove(althought i may be reading waaaaaay to much into what could simply be a clever marketing scheem)But i expect that he isn't the sacrifice also because if he were to die i would expect that as a culmination of jacen's "duel vision" that he so deperately avoided and it would be a way to cap off the series as well as the
classic-charaters EU they wouldn't just throw it in in the middle of a series willy-nilly like that..... but then again no one saw chewbaca's death coming either....... hm....
As far as tennel ka/allana i see this as very unlikely because it is pretty obvious jacen would rather sacrifice himself and the entire galaxy with him instead of that because he doesn't have the will power
In regards to jaina i believe personmally that she will be the one who kills/stops jacen in the end (w/ a little help from Luke?)\
of course this is all COMPLETELY reliant on the assumption that all that luke saw in his vioin will take place (if they just threw it in and then forgot about it i will probably have a huge rant about alliston raing my hopes *grumbles*) although it is probably dependent on how closely the authors are working in unison..
Well i hope you enjoy my personal oppinions/insights
PS- It's good to be in the forums... im rather new
I think we need to differentiate between THE sacrifice that Jacen must make in order to be a full Sith and characters who may die in addition. In my opinion, Mara simply cannot be his sacrifice. He doesn't love or, or care about her enough. The same thing goes with his parents. The only candidates I can think of are as follows:
Luke: Jacen is certainly losing respect for him, but at the present I think he cares more for him than his parents, but not enough for a heart breaking sacrifice.
Ben: I think he is the most likely choice Jacen will make, but I don't think he'll die. Didn't the writers of the Legacy comics say Kol and Cade are directly descended from Ben? This means he can't die for quite some time.
Tenal Ka and/or Allana: Impossible, Jacen loves them: they're his weakness. He'll never kill them.
Jainia: She's somewhat of an unknown variable as of know, Jacen seems to spend very little time thinking about her. How does he feel about her at the moment? The only thing I can think of was his deleted journal entry in Bloodlines. Still, I don't think she'll be it.
In the end, I don't think he'll ever make the sacrifice that Lumiya insists upon. He'll kill someone he cares little about (be it Leia, Han, Luke, or Mara) and claim that person as his sacrifice, knowing he's lying to himself. But in doing so he's failed his Sith training. Its been established that 1. He must kill someone he deeply loves 2. The only ones he deeply loves are Allana and Tenel Ka 3. He will NEVER kill either of them. Therefore, it seems impossible for him to become the selfless Sith Lumiya describes. He'll claim a sacrifice was made and declare himself a Sith, but will still have an open weakness (TK & A) that can be exploited.
Think about this: had Luke and Leia died, would Anakin have ever been redeemed? Unlikely. I think this is the reason Lumiya is insisting on Jacen killing those closest to him: she doesn't want someone redeeming him.
Amen to that! Especially regarding the haircut.