Discussion in 'Literature' started by dp4m, Apr 30, 2007.
but then we wouldn't have Luke!!
It's even a major plot point in TUF that Jacen's strength is in the Force, not a lightsaber. He was also injured by Lomi Plo in Swarm War, saving Mara, if I remember right. Foreshadowing?
Maybe the reason why he hates using a lightsaber so much is because of the accident with Tenel Ka, when they were younger?
Actualy it only proves that your views on warriorship are simply limites. Warrior is not a character class, like in W.O.W or Guild Wars.
Sun Tzu rearly if ever states that battle is one though brute force, and Neither Did Miamoto Musashi. I have read their work repeatedly. Jacen simply has a diffrent way of fighting that straight brute force.
The fact he uses forcelighting in a Fight deciding his daughters Life directs the fact that he isnt un-willing to take chances on some prolonged fight. simple as that.
When The fact he Broke her leg and Armlocked her Denotes his martial skill.
Its Like stating a samurai is a better warrior than a shinobi. It becaue one is simply a samurai and the other is simply a shinobi.
A kidnap that fails utterly. real impresive.
And the Ground war in the Biginning was lost before it began. And again all she had wither her were Joiners.
Prove it with difinative evidence not failures, amd mere extrapilations of what characters mention.
This Is Laughable, He Broke Sings Leg, If you had any Martial Arts bakground you would know the battle was won form there. The Legs draw power from the earth to power every blow (Meaningful blow,)channled though the hips and so on and so forth. Allana Deleverd the Coup de ta, but Jacen was virtualy Dragging Sing all over the room to Avoid Allana's getting too close.
And It has laready been admited that Jacen dosent teach Ben Period. Not since he began his sithly training.
Oh And Both Sidious and Yoda were Skilled dulest. Sidious in a new clone body WTHBBQPWND Luke in DE
The kidnapping didn't fail because Jaina didn't do her job correctly. The kidnapping failed because Han and Leia gave Aidel Saxan a heads-up that the Alliance was planning something.
There really is no indication that Jacen is a better fighter than Jaina. More arcane Force knowledge, yes, but not a better fighter. It's easy to see where her Sword of the Jedi moniker comes in when it's all itemized like that.
Don?t hold your breath. There?s an embargo on the book from DelRey.
Personally, I have never been so unenthused about a book in my life. Anyone see the Insider article? Can they beat it over our heads just a little bit harder that CHARACTERS WILL DIE AND FANS ARE GONNA BE MAD!!1!!1!?
When the publisher starts touting character deaths as plot devices ? pardon, let me quote this correctly: ?good drama? ? then they have officially run out of story to write.
I love Star Wars. I love the NJO. I love DN. I totally enjoy LotF.
But something needs to change. Now! The dynamics between the established characters have to change.
I've been listening for four books that Jacen is going to sacrifice/KILL a prominent member of the known galaxy.
Kill Luke! Kill Mara! Kill Han & Leia!
Just do it! After four books of setup I want/NEED a satisfying conclusion to the story. Someone just has to die!!!
Oh, please, please, please. It's about time.
Let's start to speculate on what will happen in the books BESIDES the "sacrifice?"
Like...uh...can anyone think of anything else we know is going to happen in this book?
I'd like to know more about that sith meditation sphere. I've never read the ToTJ comics and i think thats where thats from.
It would seem likely that Lumiya will use the Sith Meditation Sphere to help the Confederation forces against the GA. And I think it likely that we will see the Confederation to go on the offensive in Sacrifice, perhaps attacking Coruscant. So yet another space battle.
The question is, does Lumiya help the Confederation so that it could really destroy GA - perhaps giving change for the New Sith Order to emerge from hiding and take over - or does she just help it to weaken the GA so that Jacen can take control of it, after which she would stop her to help to Confederation so that Jacen could destroy it and be a saviour of the galaxy? So, does she want to help Jacen to take over the galaxy or is Jacen just a pawn to her?
can anybody further elaborate on this "insider" issue please?
Ok, speculation: Somewhere on page 57 Jacen will kill Luke. 200 pages deal with Boba chasing the old clone, who finalls sacrifices himself so that Boba can live. Meanwhile, Leia, Han, Jaina, Jagged and the droids bury Luke on Tatooine, while Jacen leads the GAG to attack Corellia.
No Evidence Jacen is more skilled in fighting? Have you read any books this chracter was in?
Pre NJO. his is the only character to use Telekinetic lightsaber combat. With 5 lightsabers.
In The Dark Tide Dulogy he is in Ground Combat, upclose and ugly with the Vong and Chzarac lizards. Jaina is in a cockpit.
In Balance Point He takes on 2 Vong warriors, with a Lightsaber Closed off from the force.
In Edge Of Victory II, he takes on 2 Yuuzhan Vong borders thrying to get on the falcon. In a Berthing umbilical. thats 2 to one odds alone, in close quaters.
In Star By Star, he Killed the Voxyn Queen, while poisoned by her venom, and Blasted by her sonic screetch. And it was His team that pulled Jainas group after they got pinned down.
Just read Traitor, Takes on Multiple Vong (Without the force) in Hand to hand combat, Throws off unbeliveable pain, takes and abnormal amount of physical abuse, oh and Mounts an effective plane to escape slavery, and over thoug vong contol of the seed ship. the only problem with his plan is that he didnt relize heo would flip out and go bezerker.
Destany's way: takes nearly half of Tsavong Lah's borading party. Alone.
I'm Just staring to rearead force Hertic part I, so im going to stop here
Or that they've made a decision and they want to sell it. Wait until you see it to judge.
All of the evidence from the NJO is irrelevant now.
LOTF takes place fifteen years later. Whatever talents they might have had in their youth - don't forget, Jacen and Jaina were only 21-22 when the war ended - have been swamped by the last decade and a half of their adulthood. As I demonstrated earlier in this thread (see my posts 5/4 4:08pm and 5/4 5:53pm), Jacen and Jaina have taken very different paths since TUF.
Jacen has dedicated himself to studying the Force. Its applications to combat are only incidental to his overall objective of acquiring knowledge. He doesn?t train himself, or Ben, as a combat specialist. Which puts him at a disadvantage when combat is required.
Jaina, by contrast, has dedicated herself to military service, either directly for the GA or on Jedi missions of a military nature. Not just fighter pilot missions by a long shot; she carried out boarding party raids on pirates, led ground troops in battle, and pursued Special Forces type operations on the ground (kidnapping Saxan, hunting Alema), among others.
If Jaina and Jacen were to go head-to-head in Sacrifice, the deciding factor would be who could shift the terms of the fight to their advantage. If Jacen can make the fight more about Force knowledge than lightsaber skill, he?d win. If Jaina can make the fight more about lightsaber skill, she?d win. There?s no guarantee?
In AOTC, Dooku tries to use his newfound dark side powers to hold off Yoda. It doesn?t work, because Yoda counters them more effectively than Dooku anticipated (?Much to learn, you still have.?) Then Dooku shifts to a saber duel (?It is obvious that this contest cannot be decided by our knowledge of the Force, but by our skills with a lightsaber.?), where he is also very strong but knows he?s weaker than Yoda. Dooku plays defense until he finds a trick to escape ? compelling Yoda to choose between the Chosen One?s life and capturing him.
In ROTS, it is indisputable that Vader is stronger in the Force than Obi-Wan. But Obi-Wan is strong enough to stop Vader from pounding him into defeat with Force powers. Instead, Obi-Wan compels Vader to make the fight a lightsaber duel, where Obi-Wan is also inferior in raw power. But Obi-Wan is skilled enough to cause a stalemate. And Obi-Wan wins because, in a stalemate, he has superior patience and discipline. Vader?s arrogance and impatience cause him to make a stupid tactical error, and he gets chopped up.
In LOTF, there is also (as of now) an imbalance. Jacen has more Force knowledge from his five-year sojourn and Lumiya. Jaina has more lightsaber skill and more military discipline. If Jacen has enough saber skill, he might be able to use his Force advantage to win. If Jaina has enough Force skill and patience, she might be able to use her saber advantage to win.
Regardless, to say that Jacen is superior on both metrics (Force and saber) is demonstrably wrong after Dark Nest and LOTF through Exile.
I don't thinks so, Jacen and Jaina were 19 going on 20 in UF. And And a highly imprtant part of their developing lives were shaped by thoes events. Disrgarding them as irellivent is share foolishness.
Also laghable, Combat for many Force Users are intrinsicly linked to their studies of the force. As Evidnced by Force Witches And Jensaarai. To Simply say Jacen has simply been meditating for 5 years, while in all reality you have no idea what he has been doing is flawed logic in the extreme.
Sorry, what was said during her court session at the Begining of DNT, and the Mission for Saxton could have been accomplished by Wraith Squadron, or any highly skilled team. And Both were 5 years apart. For All you know Between the End of DNT and the Beginning of LotF cvould have been 5 years of relative peace.
And lets not forget Jacen was the Lightsaber instructor for Not only Nelani Dinn, but her entire class. Jacen Dosent seem to have Any philisophical student. And you dnt get to ben a lightsaber instructor by being bad at it.
Jaina Has been comabting reletivly weak adversries
Jacen trained with likly the Most Masterful of their orders.
Its Been Stated time and Time Agian that Jacen is a Natural at lightsaber combat. Form his Early youth, to his teenaged years.
The Force Witches intergrate Physical conditioning and staff fighting with their philosphies. And the Jensaarai Intergrate Combat, Saber use, and Armor with their philospies as well.
All that has Ever been Depicted was Jacen, Meditating with the Fallaisani, and isolationist non-cobatanat, pacifist group. We Know he has Traind with All the Major groups besides the sith.
We also know Lumyia has taught him zilch, when it comes to sith powers, all he has been teaching him is how to be a bigger @$$ and ho to justify himself.
Stop trying to wave the banner of force knowledge like its some sort of concession. Jacen has always been better and close combat fighting than Jaina has been. It has been proven time and time again. You tibk Luke's been down and dirty often? You think Jaina would beat him in combat?
When you read her interactions with Jacen, in Bloodlines, in Tempest, in Exile. What do you get the feeling of? A possible mentor?
Or A Manipulator and a sucker?
1)It was Lumyia Behnd the Assassination of Saxton.
2)Lumyia behand the Attacks at Nelani's Port of call.
3)Likely Lumyia was Benid the Bombing (Even Jacen Thought the Bombing on Coruscant was too convient for his argumants)
4)Lumyia who stoped Jacen from Learning Alema Rar killed the World brain
5) Lumyia that assasinated the Bothan intellignce network on Coruscant.
6) Lumyia that divulget the info to the Bothans.
7) Lumyia that used GAG codes without Jacen's Knoledge to Acess un declissifed material to falsfy Commenors defection to the Confederacy.
A) She want to push Jacen over the Edge by having him Kill a Loved one
B) She wants to kill or manipulate ben
C) She clames to want to bring about peace but she, actualy is doing her damndest best to destroy it
E) Everyone from Jacen, to the GFFA government, to the Jedi are to stupid to realise they are all dancing to her tunes.
F) she hasnt taught Jacen a damnd thing
I for one would like to know how a Weak Sauce sith like Lumyia, who got @$$ beat by a buch of scruffy rebles time and time again, managed to pulle this off.
Jacen's her pattsy not her puple.
I've been thinking the same thing.
You just proved my point. Thank you.
The only actual evidence we have is that Jacen trained with Anakah while staying with the Fallanassi. Everything else is only what Jacen claims he did - which could very well be lies. I'm certainly not going to take Jacen's word for it what he learned from whom. Until we see him use those techniques we have no evidence he actually learned them.
I think she can outfly him now, probably. It's clearly established at the end of Betrayal, from Han's POV, that Jaina can outfly her father. Any advantage Luke has by being stronger in the Force, Jaina more than makes up for by being almost thirty years younger. If they had to pick a single pilot for an impossible shot (a 2m wide exhaust port...), Luke would send Jaina, not himself.
And I do think that if Luke made a mistake, Jaina could beat him in a saber duel. Luke is not invincible, and Jaina is quite powerful herself. (Strong enough to hold her own personality despite conditions that turned any other person into a full Joiner with no independent will; strong enough to refuse direct orders from UnuThul, which even Luke struggled against.) All it takes is one slip or distraction, and Luke could lose to Jaina - or Jacen.
Although personally, I think if Luke does die at Jacen's hand in Sacrifice, it will be because Luke chooses to sacrifice himself, like Obi-Wan in ANH. To let Ben and Mara escape, for example. Or to force Jacen to kill him, hoping the gravity of the action will ultimately trouble Jacen's conscience into returning to the light. Or some other decision where Luke believes his death will ensure the future of Ben, Jaina, and Jacen.
In the right circumstances, Luke can lose to Jacen. And Jacen can definitely lose to Jaina.
on another note, are people liking the whole luke vs lumiya trend? we had the classic Denning duel in Tempest (which was controversial for obvious reasons)...the curtailed match in exile...and now Traviss is going to have them clash again.
thing is i can only see it with Luke downing Lumiya and them having a real deep conversation before she dies. which means she needs to be developed quite a bit more...hopefully there'll be enough time in sacrifice. i can't help feeling the series could benefit with a new rebellion length novel. exile was cut very short.
Re-Read the the Joiner King. When he is in the Wreckege of the Tachyon Flyer. He Uses Both A Dothmiri Light manipulations spell, A Therian Listener Technique and the always aformentioned Aiing-ti Flow Walking. We have proof he has been studing amongs more than Just Akana.
Yeah he must have made up all thoes techniques all by his lonesome. Use some bloody common sense, do you honestly see Agwyn Djo, or the Shaaka-rii whining to Jacen like Akana? Thats why that scene was depicted.
Jacen must have been lieing in his Monolog too right? Jumping through logic loops Backwards is nothing new on this board, but you take it to a whole new level.
No one said a single thing about Flying. This entire converstion is about single comabt something Jaina has never shown any great proficancy in. Im Sure If Luke or Jacen smoked a blunt before tangling with Jaina they would lose, Short of thatn maybe a night of Binge Drinking.
Well fore Luke Anyway, pain really dosent hamper Jacens concentration.
None of which would do him any good in a saber duel. Thanks again for continuing to prove my point.
Obviously you haven't actually read LOTF. Jumping through logic loops backwards is exactly what Jacen has been doing the entire series. Every single one of his major decisions is the result of flawed reasoning and his warped amoral/immoral compass. If you think Jacen isn't lying to himself, repeatedly, in LOTF, you're missing the whole point of his characterization.
Her flying skill is relevant, because it demonstrates that Jaina has continued to focus on military and combat training skills since the end of the Vong war. If she went off on a hippie Force journey like Jacen for five years, she would not be the supreme pilot she is in LOTF. In the scenes when she's not flying, it's demonstrated over and over that since the Vong war Jaina has become a professional soldier in every respect.
It is NOT coincidence that Jaina is shown practicing her saber techniques (and beating Zekk) in Exile, while it is also emphasized that Jacen has not trained Ben on saber enough. It is NOT a coincidence in Tempest that Jaina and Zekk escape huge odds against them at the Ducha's palace ambush with relative ease, while Jacen struggles to beat Aurra Sing (and wins because his four year old daughter joins the fight). It is NOT a coincidence that Alema Rar has no problem showing up on the Anakin Solo to taunt Jacen at the end of Tempest, but that she turns tail and runs when she sees Jaina coming for her on the Errant Venture in Exile. Your continued refusal to actually look at the scenes in the books is mind-boggling.
You know, this fight between the Jaina and Jacen fans is getting pretty epic.
On a more serious tone I think Luke will die...by Jacen's hands after defeating Lumiya. When she is defeated she will spill the beans on everything. Jacen will then come and kill him by betraying him. Mara and Jaina will take revenge on both Lumiya and Jacen in a double duel.
I actually think Mara vs Lumiya would be great, for all kinds of reasons. Not sure we'll get it, though.
Given all the PT connections in LOTF, I wouldn't be surprised to see a Jacen-Luke-Lumiya scene that mirrors Anakin-Mace-Sidious in ROTS. Like Mace, Luke could easily leave himself vulnerable to Jacen's betrayal. Although he's aware Jacen is making dark choices, I think Luke genuinely believes Jacen would not choose Sith over Jedi when the final choice had to be made. Except Luke's wrong...
Which could set up Mara to take out Lumiya, and Jaina to go after her twin.
On the other hand, there are good storylines if Lumiya does die in Sacrifice and Jacen becomes the main Sith villain. For example, if Luke kills Lumiya and then Jacen turns on him and kills Luke. Instead of being distracted by two villains like they are now (Lumiya and Alema), the Jedi could focus just on Jacen. But considering he's leading the GAG and has the trust of Omas and Niathal, you can't exactly just up and arrest him. Particularly if you can't actually prove that he's the one who murdered Luke Skywalker...
So right now I can see it either way. It just depends on whether the authors see better possibilities with Lumiya still manipulating Jacen, or Jacen on his own.
Wow you are really bad at this. So Am I to Belive, Jacen Never learned A Wind Spell, since he has reapeatedly and near instictivly used force whirlwind without Dathmori instruction?
Never learned Water Manipulation? Or Fire manipulation, or Earth manipulation? And yet in the ehat 3-4 days the Shadow Acadamy had him and Jaina Learned to fling Force lightning?
Now thats the most rediculious thing I have ever heard
Wow your either terrible at this or you assume I am a complete and utter moron.
.Bad...literature. nice and spaced out so you wont get confused.
Hmmm Who would I pick in a sword fight, A Shaolin Monk Who when on a Hippie joruney to Learn form the Ninjutsu, Karate, Capoera, Muay Thai, Tai chi, Boxing master of the World
Or some career military Fighter pilot....Hmmmmm I dont Know, maybe the one who has been using Swords and training for physical combat the most.
All that her pilioting shows is that she a Good pilot, nothing more nothing less. Anything else is wish fullfillment on your part.
that would mean, somehing If zekk was even in the top 20 Lightsaber dulests in the NJO. He aint. Zekk isnt weak, but he is hardly the best of the best.
And They Bearly escaped the Ducha Estate with their lives. Going Up a Agianst what? droids? Traps?
Jacen, Bearly beat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurra_Sing ?, He Broke her leg within 30 seconds of Combat, While Restraining hims self! He Had her Imobile and Armlocked. HE WON WITH NO AID. All Allana d