The Official Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Wow, i've been away for far to long.

The disscussion in this tread is great (i'm in other boards and the is spider-man 3 good or not treads arn't as hot as this one)

I've missed my star wars agruments.

I have to Agree in part with both of the main two guys going back and forth on the Jacen vs. Jania deal.

I tead to believe at this point lightsaber dueling is beneth Jacen (or so he believes), that his fighting skills are better served in what he is doing in the war as a tatics skill guy.

It is important to say that Jania is training all the time, shes waiting to find out what her destiny means Sword of the Jedi.

But Jacen is no slouch either. He is a Skywalker/solo blood line and he has proven in the past his ability with a saber, but remeber it was luke who help him get into the main part of the Vong ship un TUF.

Look i thinks it not as important for Jacen to be the best in lightsaber combat, but i was we know you don't have to learn the best and most powerful forms of lightsaber combat to win a fight.
Sometimes simplicity works great. i.e. Obi-Wan in episode 3

 

Thank you, that's part of what I'm trying to get across - being the best in sword technique doesn't make you the best fighter, even if it's a sword fight.

A real life example: Who would be the better 'brawler' type of fighter; The Rock, or some other big wrestler/boxer/mixed combatant at 6'3" 250 and such, or Bruce Lee, one of the smaller modern fighters, who didn't train in the 'traditional' combat styles?

 

I think we're talking past each other at points, SuperLariat.

I agree - being the best sword fighter doesn't mean you'll win the fight.

Likewise - having the most Force knowledge doesn't meant you'll win the fight.

What I've been addressing primarily is the claim that Jacen is stronger than Jaina across the board, and therefore could beat her regardless of the kind of fight. The evidence in DN and LOTF shows that to be demonstrably false. Jaina is the superior warrior, not just in the cockpit but in other kinds of combat as well. Therefore, in certain (not all) circumstances she would have an advantage in a fight with Jacen.

In other words, like Kenobi-Vader in ROTS, a duel between the Solo twins in LOTF could go either way. Jaina's characterization absolutely has been established as capable of holding her own with Jacen.

 

I agree with you Darth Lex, my only concern would be as we saw in the OBI/VADER fight in 3, emotion plays a heavy role, in the case of an all solo fight, which one gets emotional first, i'd say JAcen, since the dark side feads off emotion, but i don't know if Jania would be so immune to letting her temper get to her.

I mean we've seen them both lose themselves to their anger.

 

It's a rather hard ship to disguise, and should he show up anywhere in it the Jedi will ping him as a Sith for sure.

I think he's also being cautious, since the ship is a result of Lumiya's mission for Ben, and there's a real chance it could be a Trojan Horse for all Jacen knows. Ben bringing back a living Sith ship that can read minds...well, I wouldn't trust the ship, and Jacen seems to trust his natural abilities more than any outward tools, so I'm not surprised that he'd pass on the ship.

If it's dangerous then he's put the danger on Lumiya. If Lumiya set the ship up as the prize for Ben to find if he completed his mission (probably a possibility in Jacen's mind) then it could be a trap and he's well rid of it. If it does give power, well, Jacen has an SSD and a fleet plus his own powers at his disposal, so while the ship might be useful, it isn't worth the attention it would attract and the dangers that might lurk within.

 

I don't think the USS Anakin Solo is an SSD, is it? Thought it was just a Pimp My Ride version of the stock Destroyer's they've been handing out.

And yes, D_L.. Jaina is the superior swordsman, and fighter pilot, but I think that's where her advantages end. Jacen is more well rounded (think Michael Jordan to Kobe Bryant) and more focused (think Peyton Manning to Eli Manning), so unless some outward force (obviously going to be an outside force..) interupts, Jacen should be able to dispatch his sister with relative ease.

 

I don't agree. Jacen has grandad syndrome. He's all this and all that, but he ain't the sharpest knife in the drawer, now is he? He's just so blatantly stupid and gullible and a know it all, arrogant, selfish jerk. He's too lame to see the forest for the trees. He makes me think of the saying "youth is wasted on the young". With him, power and talent is wasted on a moron that can't his own butt with two hands and a flashlight.

 

Actually, Bruce Lee was probably the first Mixed Martial Arts Combatant, but thats splitting hairs.

Style is not so important. I've seen great, wonderful fighters get taken down by a lucky swing by a novice. And no one style is inherantly better than the other. Its kinda like paper, rock, scissors. Yeah, rocks beats scissors, but its wrapped by paper. Every style has its faults and strengths (which is why Lee developed Jeet Kun Do, a mixed martial art)

 

I think the in-universe PC term is bladesbeing now.

 

LOL!



I believe "saberist" is the correct term.

 

NG, I agree on Jacen's mental stature, but that has nothing to do with his combat prowess.
Bouncers, mercenaries an the like aren't exactly the sharpest knives but they'll still whoop your Ghost if you get out of line.

And re; the Bruce Lee thing... Just meant that to be a loose example, but I don't really look at Jeet Kune Do as a mixed martial art, because it has it's own distinct look and feel, but more of a heavily influenced, very seperate art of its own. Something like Mace's Vaapad or Luke's unorthodox (at times) combat styles.

 

Jacen's problem right now, to paraphrase Dex in AOTC, is that he's lost sight of the difference between knowledge and wisdom. He's learned plenty about the Force and how to use it, but he lacks the insight and discipline to know when and why to use it. He's plenty smart; it's his moral compass (actually, lack thereof) that's the problem.

The parallel to his grandfather is intentional, I think. Like Anakin, Jacen is overconfident in his own power with the Force, and that has led him to also become overconfident in his own judgment about how best to protect the galaxy. Just as Anakin concluded he was the only one who could save Padme, Jacen has convinced himself that he's the only one who can bring security and stability to the GA. They're both wrong.

Also like Anakin, Jacen has become emotionally volatile. In Betrayal he's relatively controlled, but once he makes his fateful choice he becomes progressively less disciplined and controlled in Bloodlines, Tempest, and Exile. Particularly notable, I think, is how short his temper has become in Exile. Those are exactly the same kinds of signs we see in Anakin Skywalker, particularly the late Clone Wars and ROTS leading up to his fall. If Jacen continues to struggle with emotional control in this way, he will be vulnerable to exactly the same kind of defeat that Vader was dealt on Mustafar.

True, Jaina has struggled with emotional control in the past, especially shortly after Myrkr. By the time of Dark Nest, though, she has mastered her emotions. In DN and LOTF, there is not a single scene where Jaina's emotions interfere with her ability to fulfill a mission objective. The closest she gets to losing control in LOTF, probably, is in Bloodlines when she Force-smacks the soldier who compared Jacen to Vader in the mess hall - a casual moment when nothing is on the line. When she's in combat, in the cockpit or with a lightsaber, she doesn't let her anger or other emotions get the better of her.

The contrast between Jaina and Jacen, in LOTF especially, is also intentional, IMO.

 

I wonder which name won the Darth Who contest in the end? May 29th is taking forever to get here. The number of posts in this thread will probably triple when it finally hits store shelves. I just hope the Mods here are ready to handle the flood of bashing that's sure to come since there'll be tons of people pissed over whomever Jacen sacrifices. In a way I hope it's not any of the Big Three: it'd be the start of the biggest Star Wars debate since OT vs. PT. No matter who gets offed I'll keep reading the EU and pray that everybody here remembers that in the end it's only a book.

 

Yes, it is only a book, but also a part of a modern mythology and this book - especially if one of the Big Three dies - will go a long way to establishing how the whole mythology will be seen afterwards. So it is no wonder if people will take it (too) seriously.

 

Any death for a member of the Big Three couldn't be any worse than Superman's. Besides, I doubt that LOTF can really add anything to modern mythology that the OT and/or PT hasn't already done(and better might I add). For a lot of people Star Wars ended with ROTJ(or ROTS depending on your POV).

 

I tend to agree with you. She has shown much more control over her emotions as of late. Best Example is the return of Jag as a part of her life. They also talk about how she shuts of to Jacen and others, though they know shes there they don't get a feeling about her.

It would be a good fight, one i don't think occurs until the end of the series when its down to them. To me its sad, but the way things feel like they are headed.

 

I think it will be either Tenel Ka or Mara who will be taken down by Darth Who.

I don't think it will be Luke. Mainly because he is the main character of the whole SW story. SW started out as HIS story, not Anakin's or even Han's or Leia's. Although, I never directly read this anywhere, I honestly doubt GL would allow Luke to be killed off. In fact, I'd even go as far as to say, the day Luke becomes one with the Force is the day SW will end.

I also don't think it will be Han or Leia. Simply because Jacen doesn't even love them anymore by his own admission at the end of Exile. However, they may still not be safe from him trying to kill them. Not because he wants to sacrifice them but because they have become a liabilty to his ambitions, again from the end of Exile. However, I don't think GL would allow them to be killed off. Jacen may try but the authors won't be allowed to actually do the deed.

Jaina is also safe. In the interview by Allston before the release of Exile pretty much convinced me that Jaina will play a very important role in the endgame. She is the Sword of the Jedi. And as Mr. Allston pointed out in the interview, one keeps a weapon hidden until it is ready to be used. Meaning, Jaina hasn't gotten the page time she may or may not deserve because they (the authors) have plans for her. I think she will be the one who either kills Jacen or redeems him.

The reason I think Tenel Ka may be the victom of Jace's desire to become Lord Who is because he truely and honestly loves her. And according to Lumyia, the sacrifice has to be someone he loves most. Throughout the LotF Jacen continues to say that she and/or Allan are the ones he couldn't ever sacrifice. It would break his heart to kill her and would seal his destiny.

However, there is a real problem with killing Tk....The Hapans would be thrown instantly into civil war as the royals fight for the crown. Allana would probably be assassinated, destroying Tk's descendants claim to the throne. Jacen knows this because, like it or not, Jacen inherited a great deal of his mother's political knack. He can't risk losing the Hapan's support for the war effort with the Corellians, which means Tk has to stay on the throne and alive.

Meaning that even though Tk is the best choice for his sacrifice, logistically it would be the worse thing that he could do.

Mara, however, makes a good choice. First, she is a main character who is very well liked by the public. Her death would send shock waves and would ganer a lot of hype for the series. More so than one of the other EU characters, like Tenel Ka. She also is often equated to the original three but because she isn't one of GL's babies, he doesn't have a vested interest in her as he does Luke, Leia and Han and therefore wouldn't care if she bites the dust.

Secondly, in the story she has supported Jacen and I think that Jacen still respects and may even love her as his aunt. I think he loves Luke too but for the reasons above I don't think Luke is going to be the final sacrifice. What I see happening is Jacen wanting to or choosing Luke as his sacrifice, but in the end Luke doesn't die, Mara does. Luke and Jacen fight with Jacen intent on killing his uncle but Mara "comes to the rescue" and in doing so Jacen sacrifices her instead. By killing Mara, Luke would be devestated and the Jedi would be thrown into turmoil. Which last time I checked, is exactly what makes a Sith happy. With the Jedi confused and grieving, Jacen could force himself into greater areas of power.

This also could be what makes or breaks Ben as Sith Apprentice applicant #1 or the future of the Jedi. I've noticed that in Exile during his little vaccation on Zoist, Ben used a great deal of his mother's ideas and training. It is my belief that Ben is closer to his mother than he is to his father. If Mara was to die on Jacen's blade, I think Ben would do one of two things--return to the Jedi to avenge her death, or fall to the dark side. I'm betting on the former. Because, even though he m

 

We've, uh, contracted some extra help...

[image=http://www.nj.com/sopranos/flags/sopranos.jpg]

 

bah

 

Wrong thread?

 

My review of the latest issue of Legacy is that it is an issue with decided ups and downs. Overall; my spoiler free portion of the review states that work has beautiful art, a couple of surprising guest stars, an honest re-examination of what exactly the Jedi knights see in Cade Skywalker, and a plot twist at the end. Unfortunately, the biggest problem with the storyline now is the fact that Cade has made the worst transition yet. He's moved from being a badass scumbag whose broken to being a whiner like his Grandpa Luke in addition to having almost no morality whatsoever. This is a major disappointment as you can forgive bad behavior if they don't whine. Ironically, its when he's actually starting to show improvement in his attitudes towards being a hero.

SPOILER time.

Basically, in this issue we have Mara Jade confirmed to be dead unlike Luke Skywalker. Cade refers to her Force Ghost as definitely that of someone whose dead rather than the ambiguity that they took with Luke. Mara tries logic with Cade as she points out that Death Sticks aren't going to keep a determined ghost away. Also, Cade is visited by Anakin Skywalker whom pretty much decides to take the tactic of SCARING THE P*** OUT OF HIM as opposed to Mara jade trying to reason with him. Seriously, all out Lord Vader appearance here. Cade is left like Scrooge at the end of his latest visitation as we start to realize that he's not beig visited, the dude is outright Haunted!

Another fun fact is that Kru'chek from the Clone Wars series rejoined the Jedi Knighthood sometime during the NJO and the big Whiphid with the hat has come back to Ossus to train Cade. He has a fun moment with Cade's mentors of Shao and Wolf. Basically, the Whiphid questions why Wolf thinks Cade is a rallying point when the man doesn't want to be a Jedi and he's also a train wreck of a human being. He points out "There's more to the Legacy of Skywalker than blood" in not so many words. Wolf said he had a vision where a Skywalker would unite the galaxy to defeat the Sith. Cade is the only Skywalker.

Which is...obviously...a send out that Cade ISN'T the hero since even Krunchy looks at him like "You're being an idiot by assuming."

Then, Shao finds a massive treasure trove of Jedi artifacts they thought lost but it turns out the Jedi entrusted to the Yuuzhan Vong to guard all these years.

 

This...is...this is...epic....

 

Sorry, I posted it in the wrong thread and double posted.

 

Don't worry it still has some relavance....to the thread.