The Official Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Literature (Spoilers Allowed)' started by dp4m, Mar 15, 2007.

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  1. RebelGrrl Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 2006
    star 4
    'Not entirely accurate' means some yahoo got the Inferno fake-blurb inserted onto amazon.uk with amazon's automated tools before the manuscript was even completed. It's a hoax. It might later prove to be true or partially true, but not because the person who put up the blurb knew so beforehand.
  2. J_K_DART Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2001
    star 5
    Although has it been confirmed as not being true, on the other hand? That's why I don't put it as 'inaccurate'... It might well prove to be true.
  3. Havac Former Moderator

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2005
    star 7
    The world will end tomorrow.

    It might prove true, so you can't say it's inaccurate.
  4. Corran_Fett Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2005
    star 4
    Just a random thought...I just finished Betrayal, and apart from minor things I sure don't know the details of how this goes on.... but:

    Why wouldn't the sacrifice be Jacen himself?

    If he really managed to be that uber-Sith Lord Lumiya wants him to be, why do we see nothing of him, or results of his actions, in Legacy? Maybe he sees it need to sacrifice himself to save those he still loves (?) or for the galaxy itself.


    Sure, I'll bet this has come up earlier, and you'll tell me fitting facts from Bloodlines to Exile why this can't be... :p
  5. SuperLariat Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2003
    star 2
    Based on Jacen's current actions, results we DON'T see in Legacy as follows:

    A breed of Jedi dedicated solely to the leader of a Galactic Empire.
    A galaxy dominating Sith Empire.
    A head Imperial Knight who looks strikingly like a descendant of the Solo family (Draco.. possibly a Hapan name??)
    Skywalkers on the run.
    Yuuzhan Vong on good terms with the Galactic Alliance.


    Yea, Jacen's hand can't be seen in any of that...
    :)

    I'm pretty sure a lot of the stuff that happens will be, if not directly then via some kind of trickle effect, part of Jacen's doing/teaching/rampage.
  6. Corran_Fett Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2005
    star 4
    I was especially talking about his Sithy influence. The other points are conceded, but not what I was going for.

    We know that Darth Krayt already had his Sith in training during or even before the Vong Wars, so none like Jacen's hand in that. Sure, there are probably things in Legacy that are due to LotF events, but not the Sith part, I'd think.
  7. saber_death Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2005
    star 4

    Darth Krayt says his Sith Order began around/during the Vong war... kinda like how Obi-Wan (who is a Jedi and theoretically more trustworthy than a Sith) said Darth Vader killed Anakin Skywalker. this is Star Wars, historical events are always seen from "a certain point of view". IF Krayt is in any way related to/caused by Jacen he could easily view Jacen's fall (which both in and out of universe is viewed as starting back in SbS/Traitor) as the start of the training of a member of his order. this doesn't mean Krayt's Sith ARE due to Jacen, but they most certainly could be with minimal effort. obviously we'll have a better idea of if/how Jacen and the NSO are related once we know Jacen's fate and Krayt's identity.
  8. Thinine Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2002
    I'm not sure where everyone is getting this "Luke dies" idea. Wasn't it made pretty clear in Exile that it wouldn't be Luke/Mara or Jaina since none of them are close enough to Jacen for their Sacrifice to have the meaning Lumiya wants? The only choices left are Tenel Ka, Alanna, and his parents. They are the only ones Jacen still feels an emotional connection to. And I think it's pretty clear that Jacen thinks he's doing all of this for Tenel Ka and Alanna, so they won't be the target(s). Personally, I think it'll be Han. He's both close enough to Jacen to be a worthy sacrifice and yet less important in the grand scheme of things than any of the other characters (sort of like Chewbacca). I don't want it to be Luke anyway, he's my favorite character of all the Star Wars universe.

    Besides that, I thought George Lucas said Luke couldn't die. If he wouldn't let him be killed in SbS, why would he now?
  9. Rouge77 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2005
    star 5
    Nowhere in LotF it has it been claimed that Luke, Mara or Jaina could not be the sacrifice. In fact, none of them have been even mentioned as a possible sacrifice. It was Han&Leia that Jacen wanted to sacrifice in Exile, even when Lumiya expressed doubts that Jacen would love them still, and if he would not, then sacrifing them would not cause Jacen the kind of pain Lumiya has said to be necessary.

    There are several things why Luke could die in Sacrifice:
    - In Betrayal, Jacen becomes a Sith and kills Nelani Dinn, so that his visions where he kills Luke if Nelani lives will not come true. In ROTS Anakin Skywalker fell to the Dark Side, because he wanted to stop his vision of Padme dying from becoming true. But his becoming a Sith did make that vision to come true, so it is likely that the same thing will happen with Jacen and his visions about Luke.
    - DR wanted to kill him already in VP, not SbS. (In fact, it was Kyle Katarn who was also supposed to be killed in SbS, but LFL saved him for possible future game projects.)
    - Lucas did not give the right to kill Luke in NJO. It is possible, but not certain, that now after the PT the Big Three are no longer protected and he can be killed.
    - Luke has the Death Spot in the backcover of Sacrifice. He is a spectral figure there, just like Chewbacca in VP and Anakin is SbS.
    - There has been some hints that Luke will die, like his losing his old cybernetic hand in Tempest and the mentions that with his new one he can not use a lightsaber as well as with the old one. This might be one excuse given if Jacen will kill him in lightsaber combat.
  10. Rouge77 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2005
    star 5
    From Random House:

    Civil war rages as the Galactic Alliance?led by Cal Omas and the Jedi forces of Luke Skywalker?battles a confederation of breakaway planets that rally to the side of rebellious Corellia. Suspected of involvement in an assassination plot against Queen Mother Tenel Ka of the Hapes Consortium, Han and Leia Solo are on the run, hunted by none other than their own son, Jacen, whose increasingly authoritarian tactics as head of GA security have led Luke and Mara Skywalker to fear that their nephew may be treading perilously close to the dark side. But all Jacen wants is safety and stability for all?and he?s prepared to do whatever it takes to achieve that goal. As the strands of destiny draw ever more tightly together in a galaxy-spanning web, the shocking conclusion will shatter two families . . . and cast a grim shadow over the future.

    There is an AUDIO EXCERPT on the Random House page!
  11. Thinine Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2002
    Exile very explicitly laid out Jacen's thinking along these lines, with him coming to the conclusion that he wasn't close enough to Luke, Mara, or Jainia for them to be an appropriate sacrifice. Only Han, Leia, Tenel Ka, and Alanna were left as possibilities.
    Jacen has produced several visions of the future that haven't come true. Even in ESB Luke saw the deaths of Han, Leia and Chewbacca, and we all know how that turned out. I think it has been pretty clear that Jacen looks for these visions, trying to see where an action may lead. We have no reason to believe he's actually seeing the future, or seeing it accurately.
    This is perhaps the most convincing of all the reasons. But do we have any confirmation that these appearances were intentional? This seems like an awful way to hint at what's coming.
    I really don't buy this either. By Jacen's own admission he's not a great lightsaberist. It seems to me that even with a new hand, Luke would be able to defeat Jacen, one v. one. Maybe, maybe, with Lumiya there as well could Jacen overcome Luke, but even then I think Luke has the power to overcome both of them.

    Even with all of this, I still think Exile ruled Luke out as Jacen's sacrifice. And unless he's the sacrifice, I don't see him dying.

    If Luke does die though, it better be epic. Like Anakin x 10 epic.

    Edit: Thanks for the Randomhouse link. Audio excerpt is sort of interesting, but doesn't reveal much.
  12. Darth_Lex Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 17, 2002
    star 4
    A Solo killing a Solo only shatters one family. A Solo killing a Skywalker shatters two. [face_devil]

    Doesn't sound like something that would apply to Mara or Ben to me... [face_whistling]

    Excellent. :cool: Mara's back in professional assassin mode. Love it. [face_mischief]

    Although the voice actor needs to work on his women's voices. :p
  13. Havac Former Moderator

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2005
    star 7
    Because Luke wouldn't feel it at all if his sister or brother-in-law or niece was killed. He wouldn't feel any responsibility if the Jedi he trained did it.

    o_O

    I think you overanalyze. Heck, he could kill Tenel, and it would still "shatter" the two families because they'd realize he was totally gone now.
  14. RebelGrrl Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 2006
    star 4
    Devil's advocate, but Leia is technically a Skywalker by birth, even if she's never carried the name. Jacen killing Leia is Jacen killing a Skywalker. AND a Solo. And Han ... because if Chewbacca's loss was devastating ...

    Not that I care for that theory at all, personally. Leia should live. She deserves better than to be slain by her own child.
  15. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5

    Thinine
    Even in ESB Luke saw the deaths of Han, Leia and Chewbacca, and we all know how that turned out.

    Actually, all Luke saw was a city in the clouds and Han and Leia in pain. He asked Yoda, "Will they die?" Yoda said, "Always in motion is the future," so he couldn't tell him whether he would die or not.


    But I'm with you: I don't want Luke to die either.

    Darth_Lex
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    . . . and cast a grim shadow over the future.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Doesn't sound like something that would apply to Mara or Ben to me...


    This could just be referring to the new Darth Jacen, who WOULD "...cast a grim shadow over the future," after killing someone and becoming a Sith Lord.

  16. Whitey Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 26, 2003
    star 6
    Wait... Mara is not pronounced mAIR-ah? :p
  17. Darth_Lex Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 17, 2002
    star 4
    Oh, he?d feel responsible. But it wouldn?t ?shatter two families? in any meaningful sense, IMO. Shatter families, not just Luke's heart. And shatter two, both the Skywalkers and the Solos. I don't see how the death of Leia, Han, or Jaina would shatter the Luke-Mara-Ben family. Unless it's just sloppy word choice...

    Possibly. ;) But I think we should take this description quite seriously in its word choice. These are professional publishers and editors, if not the authors, writing the blurbs. They know how much words matter, and they choose them for a reason.

    Go back to the promo blurbs (at the official site) and back cover text for each of the first four books. They?re always crafty teasers, leaving things a bit ambiguous in advance ? but precisely accurate when the book is read. For example, from Tempest: Yet the Solos selfless determination to save the queen cannot dispel the inescapable consequences of their actions that will pit mother against son and brother against sister in the battles ahead. This might have referred to Leia-Jacen or Mara-Ben, as well as Leia-Luke or Jaina-Jacen, and given the setup from Betrayal and Bloodlines interesting predictions could have been (and were) made for any of those four options. But after reading Tempest, the meaning is clear that the ?son? and ?brother? are the same person, Jacen. Particularly if you look to ?the battles ahead?, which denotes conflict in subsequent books (not Tempest itself); and after Exile that meaning is even clearer.

    So I think it?s appropriate to take the word choice seriously. These aren?t slapdash or sloppy publicity blurbs, IMO.

    No, it wouldn?t ?shatter? the families any more than it would ?explode? or ?tear apart? them. Shatter is a verb of destruction - like a piece of glass or ceramic vase, dropped to the floor and broken into pieces.

    Your interpretation might work if it was hearts that were shattered. But it?s families.

    And if they did want your meaning, they?d have picked a different verb. Something like ?devastate? or ?horrify? or ?appall?? If not simply, ?that will shatter the hearts of two families?...

    Unless you subscribe to the theory that she never should have had kids in the first place because one of them was destined to fall to the dark side and become a monster like Darth Vader, just as she feared. Then it?s appropriate karma for ignoring her fears and the curse of the Skywalker name. :p

    But personally I don?t like it, either. I think the themes of SW are a better fit if Leia lives, and comes to make peace with the idea that even if one of her children did become a Sith (by his own choice and the events of his life, not some preordained destiny), the other two are amazing Jedi heroes (Anakin for his sacrifice, Jaina as Sword of the Jedi). Even with Jacen?s fall, the galaxy is still better off with the three Solo kids having been born than without them. :)

    Like I said to Havac, I think we need to take the wording seriously. And the grammar makes clear that ?the shocking conclusion?, whatever it is, ?will shatter? and ?will cas
  18. RebelGrrl Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 2006
    star 4
    That theory about Leia deserving what she gets for daring to have kids? So not in line with Star Wars' core themes of hope and familial love. "There is still good in him." and all. Just don't let it be Leia echoing her mom by saying that before dying. That's one PT echo we can live without.
  19. Darth_Lex Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 17, 2002
    star 4
    Agreed.

    If they use that echo, it'll be Tenel Ka. :( Probably in connection with some comment about Jacen's love for Allana bringing him back to the light, the way Vader's son redeemed him.

    But yeah, we don't need to echo everything from the PT. I have no need to see Jaina ride a big lizard while pursuing a lightsaber-wielding cyborg. [face_laugh] The scary thing is, with Lumiya in place of Grievous they could make that work! :eek: :p

    For what it's worth, I think they're going to put either Ben or Allana in the "ANH Luke" role - meaning an orphan, always living the shadow of an absent father.

    For a while I thought it would be Ben, but after reading Exile I think they're probably going to keep Mara alive. Those multiple instances in Ben's internal monologue where he thinks lovingly about his mother I think are setup to make a close bond with her credible after his father dies... Also, Ben's already 14. He knows his father and was raised by him, so it's really nothing like Luke-Anakin. Of course, if Luke dies, Ben will still feel like he's living in his father's shadow, that he must take up his father's mantle as leader of the Jedi, and a lot of the time he probably will feel that he'll never be good enough to live up to his father's legacy... All great SW themes, but not a good fit to ANH Luke.

    So instead, I'm now inclined to think they're going to put Allana in the ANH Luke role. Tenel Ka murdered by Jacen. Orphaned child raised by aunt and uncle (Jaina and Jag). Maybe even lied to for years about who her father really was. (I can just see it - Um, he was a nobleman, a navigator of Hapan political intrigue, and then he, um, died. A Dark Lord of the Sith? No, no, nothing like that. He certainly wasn't Darth Who. How could he be your father? You don't even share a last name! :p ) The only part I'm not sure about is the series ending: whether Jacen survives his Mustafar in BookNine. If he dies (as a Sith or redeemed), the Allana-Luke parallel isn't as precise but they'd still hide the truth about her father for her to uncover later. Or maybe he'll live and need Allana to redeem him later, a closer parallel. But I think they're going to wrap up Jacen's arc - redeemed or not - within LOTF.

    The original teaser: "Evil is rising again ? out of the best intentions ? and it looks as if the legacy of the Skywalkers may come full circle." Does full circle mean Jacen becomes a Sith like his grandfather? Or falls and is redeemed? [face_thinking]
  20. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5

    Whitey
    Wait... Mara is not pronounced mAIR-ah?

    No, I met Timothy Zahn once and he pronounces it as Mar as in Car, uh. SO it's Mar-uh.


  21. Whitey Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 26, 2003
    star 6
    Then my entire life is a lie. :_|

    :p
  22. Havac Former Moderator

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2005
    star 7
    They're professional hypers, Lex. They choose "shatter" because it causes people to sit up and shout "Shatter! Wow!"

    Perhaps you recall the TUQ blurb. "To find out, Luke, Mara, Han, and Leia must embark on a perilous journey into the uncharted void between right and wrong. The ferocious Unknown Terrors are only the beginning of the awesome challenges that lie ahead in their quest to fathom the unfathomable."

    Fathom the unfathomable? These don't exist to give you a precise plot overview. They aren't chosen for the best possible verb usage. They exist to hype up the importance of the book. They are chosen to make it sound exciting and incite you to buy it. I don't think there's anything that should be taken less seriously in its word choice than a promotional blurb.

    You remember Slave Ship's backcover? "For in order to gain his freedom he must outwit a sentient weapon that feeds on human spirits." There wasn't any such thing in the book or in the entire series. The backs are all about hype. Maybe the event will most properly "Depress" the families. But as long as it hurts them, the authors can write "Shatter" because it's more epic. You're looking for waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much meaning where it doesn't exist. That's like arguing that of course Luke was going to use lightning in TSW because they put it on the cover, didn't they? They wouldn't put anything on the cover that would in even the slightest way misrepresent what happens in the book when subjected to excessive analysis!
  23. Darth_Lex Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 17, 2002
    star 4
    Havac: The only thing that?s relevant here is LOTF.

    Let?s take a look.

    BETRAYAL
    This is the era of Luke Skywalker?s legacy: the Jedi Master has unified the order into a cohesive group of powerful Jedi Knights. [No schisms, unlike the NJO; no banishments to Dagobah like DN] But as the new era begins, planetary interests threaten to disrupt this time of relative peace [Corellia], and Luke is plagued with visions of an approaching darkness. [The Man Who Isn?t There] Evil is rising again [Lumiya]?out of the best intentions[Jacen]?and it looks as if the legacy of the Skywalkers may come full circle [Darth Who]. Honor and duty will collide with friendship and blood ties as the Skywalker and Solo clans find themselves on opposing sides [yep] of an explosive conflict [attack on Centerpoint and Battle of Tralus surely count as ?explosive?] with potentially devastating repercussions for both families [divided loyalties], for the Jedi order [side with the GA or not?], and for the entire galaxy [civil war].

    When a mission to uncover an illegal missile factory on the planet Adumar ends in a violent ambush [they got shot at] ?from which Jedi Knight Jacen Solo and his protégé and cousin, Ben Skywalker, narrowly escape with their lives [accurate]?it?s the most alarming evidence [planetary troopers shooting at GA Jedi is ?alarming?, yes] yet that sparks of political unrest are threatening to ignite into total rebellion [if they?ll shoot at Jedi, who?s next?]. The governments of numerous worlds are chafing under the strict regulations of the Galactic Alliance [accurate], and diplomatic efforts to enforce compliance are failing [accurate]. Fearing the worst, the Alliance readies a preemptive display of military might in a bid to bring the rogue worlds in line before an uprising erupts. The designated target of this exercise: planet Corellia?renowned for the brash independence and renegade spirit that have made its favorite son, Han Solo, a legend. [all accurate]

    Something of a rogue himself [he?s not even officially a Jedi], Jacen is nevertheless duty bound [he chooses to be, anyway] as a Jedi to stand with his uncle, Jedi Master Luke Skywalker, on the side of the Galactic Alliance [which he does, attacking Centerpoint]. But when the wary Corellians launch a counterstrike, the Alliance?s show of force?and a secret mission to disable Corellia?s crucial Centerpoint Station?give way to an armed skirmish [yep, there was shooting]. Once the smoke clears, the battle lines are drawn. [GA vs Corellia] Now the specter of full-scale war looms [Luke fears this, as does Leia] between a growing cadre of defiant planets and the Galactic Alliance that some fear is becoming a new Empire [Han says as much]. And even as both sides struggle to find a diplomatic solution, mysterious acts of treachery and sabotage threaten peace efforts at every turn [Toryaz Station assassination].

    Determined to root out those behind the mayhem, Jacen follows a trail of cryptic clues [tassles] to a dark rendezvous [Bimmiel] with the most shocking of revelations [Lumiya]. . . while Luke grapples with something even more troubling: dream visions of a shadowy figure [The Man Who Isn?t There] whose Force power and ruthlessness remind him of Darth Vader [he does make the analogy]?a lethal enemy who strikes like a dark spirit on a mission of doom [Luke senses murder around The Man]. An agent of evil who, if Luke?s visions come to pass, will bring untold pain to the Jedi Master . . . and to the entire galaxy.[Luke says this expressly]


    BLOODLINES
    A new era of exciting adventures [Han going after Thrackan, at least] and shocking revelations [Boba is dying, Mirta?s identity, Jacen?s murder of Ailyn] continues to unfold, as the legendary Star Wars saga sweeps forward into astonishing new territory [I?d say Jacen court-martialing Jaina is astonishing, and new for the Skywalkers].

    Civil war looms as the fledgling Galactic Alliance confronts a growing number of rebellious worlds [yep]?and the approaching war is tearing the Skywalker and Solo families apart
  24. Thinine Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2002
    I hope that was a copy/paste job and not typed by hand. Pretty good point, though I think "shattered" leaves quite a bit of room for interpretation. Since we know Jacen sacrifice's someone, his fall to the dark side would be enough to shatter the families, even if it wasn't directly a member of the families that died (like Tenel Ka).

    The audio excerpt is interesting. Apparently Ben learns how to disconnect himself from the Force at will, and is happy about it.
  25. RebelGrrl Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 2006
    star 4
    It seemed more to me that Ben has learned Jacen's trick of disappearing in the Force, rather than his instinctual disconnecting himself. When Jacen disappears, he's still in connection with the Force, just no one can sense him.

    The chilling part for me was Mara saying that Ben felt 'invaded' after he returned. Or did I mishear that and it's supposed to be 'elated'?
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