Discussion in 'Literature (Spoilers Allowed)' started by dp4m, Mar 15, 2007.
Isn't Mara a Jedi Master?
Yeah, uh, if Jacen killed Luke I think Mara would be a bit more suspicious of Jacen in that excerpt.
Exactly my thoughts. She has the cover, she's suddenly in action - this sounds as if she's made more important than she currently is so that everyone gets the tragedy when she dies.
That's quite a lot of prerequisites. I think most people don't over-analyse novels one year in advance, so I think these points will still be valid for most people with every character. As for us analysts:
For "a", the only truly unexpected choice would be a minor character that wouldn't make sense.
For "b", safety doesn't exist anymore anyway, does it?
For "c", Chewie and Anakin show that you can't to that anyway.
Writing Mara angry is getting the character right, it doesn't have to mean anything. I doubt that Leia would be able to talk normally if her brother had died. She's still occupied with Alema. She wouldn't be still acting like three books before if Luke had left the picture.
I must admit that the details of this novel we've already seen could also mean that Mara is stepping out of Luke's shadow, being established/reaffirmed as a true main character by the cover and then having a lead role. But I really doubt it. And as for the excerpt seeming to come from later in the novel, I think the sacrifice would be the climax of the story, something Inferno has to deal with.
On another note, and hopefully without coming across impolite, why post speculation like that in the news section? I think there should be some editorial page where the TFN staff could post their thoughts on such matters. The analysis isn't really news, and while it's marked as speculation, there's still the chance of some genius taking it for real and posting it all over the internet out of context. I like the piece (I also wouldn't really have thought about this meaning you could read into the conversation), but I really think there should be another place for it.
Or is it a devious scheme created by LFL to mislead the public, something in the wake of the "spoiler controversy" that lead to the creation of this very board?
Speaking of this board - is this thread going to be merged back into the main Lit forum anytime soon?
Also, I really, really don't believe that Luke's dead in that excerpt. If Luke had died and Mara hadn't spoken to Leia since Gilatter (since I doubt Jacen yet AGAIN abandoned them to death), I cannot imagine Leia insinuating the thing Mara really wants to ask is how she feels about Jacen abandoning her. Luke would be the topic of conversation.
I can justify just about every other part (perhaps Mara didn't KNOW it was Jacen who killed Luke, I can even justify Ben feeling elated at a new discover in the wake of his father's death) but that conversation between the two of them rings really really false if Luke's dead.
So if Luke dies in Sacrifice, I believe it's after this excerpt.
But my money is still, sadly, on Mara.
A Jedi Master is still, broadly speaking, a Jedi Knight.
"Jedi Master" has an implicit contrast with "Jedi Knight", implications of superior instinct and training - and that nuance wasn't quite what I was going for there; "the guess of a Jedi Knight" is a more neutral term than "the guess of a Jedi Master"...
"We don't have time for our sorrows, Commander." Leia is pretty tough-willed.
Theoretically, a scene like this could be the very end of the novel.
Heh. For the record? No.
My by-line here at TF.N is completely independent, though I can count on people further up the hierarchy to let me know when my idea of what might be interesting proves a little too off-the-wall...
I really appreciate this sort of feedback, though. CooperTFN and myself are actually planning a dedicated section in TF.N books, which would provide a more regular outlet for this sort of commentary piece - but I don't see anything wrong with providing a more in-depth analysis within a "news" context.
I did come very close to cutting out most of the speculation about Luke, though (and maybe posting it in this thread instead). I actually had the edit interface open, and had cut out everything between "... what seems to be a reference back to the end of Exile" and "It?s wild speculation, but it?s possible--just possible..." - but in the end, I decided to leave it in, since I hoped that a more detailed section would encourage people to think for themselves about the topic, and maybe offer some amusement, too.
It's good to hear random, unprompted POVs about this sort of thing. It's always good to see things from audience perspectives like that.
- The Imperial Ewok
Playing off your idea that the VP and SBS teasers revealed something crucial about the story, without making clear that's what they were doing...
Could it be that the hint we're receiving here has to do not with the identity of the sacrifice (at least not directly) but with how it will occur? What we hear in the teaser is Mara sensing Ben vanish from the Force, followed by an instantaneous sense of panic - that only is relieved (somewhat) when she feels Ben appear again.
We're being reminded just how much Jedi can sense about close family members in the Force.
Consequently, if Luke is indeed the sacrifice, following this scene there's no need for any other member of the family to be present when Jacen strikes him down. When Luke dies, Leia, Mara, Ben, and Jaina will all feel it in the Force. (Much the way, I imagine, that "offscreen Yoda" would have felt Obi-Wan's death in ANH...) How that is possible doesn't need to be explained at that moment, since the ability to sense vanishes (and deaths) is already established in the book...
Another thought as well -
In Bloodlines, Karen used only five POV characters: Jacen, Ben, Luke, Han, and Boba. All of her other books, Republic Commando and Wess'har, have a limited set of POV characters too. So it's probably reasonable to estimate five or so POV characters for Sacrifice as well.
We know one now: Mara.
Presumably Jacen again, as well, to show the final stages of his decisions as he "officially" becomes a Sith.
Wild guesses at the POV characters:
Mara (which we know, and I don't imagine her going with two POV characters for the "pair" of Luke and Mara).
Jacen (really has to be since this is his big Sacrifice - though I suppose it could be interesting to keep his motivations oblique).
Han or Leia (maybe Leia since last time it was Han?)
Jaina (if she's taking a bigger role in the plot) or Ben (if she isn't).
Boba (again. Or possibly Mirta if she's looking for a change?)
good point... very likely this will be at least partially true, in that some of the "solo/walker" clan will more than likely be far away when one of them dies... if it's anyone but Han the others will know regardless of where they are.
also, it shows that Ben has learned/been taught the "Force hiding" skill Jacen has, though he's probably not as good at it as Jacen.... which to me sets up Ben being cloaked and able to see Jacen strike down whomever he strikes down, without Jacen knowing about it. Jacen will be focused on the task at hand, especially since that task is killing a family member and/or powerful Jedi who may be fighting back, and won't be actively looking for Ben.
This is a good point. It was what happened with Anakin Solo, too, pretty much... and it could be true with any of the main characters...
Ben and Jacen are confirmed by the excerpt at the back of Exile.
I wouldn't be surprised - or disappointed - to see Fett again. There also needs to be a character on Corellia with H/L, which presumably means Han again.
And you've forgotten another character who, if memory serves, had a couple of small POV scenes in Bloodlines: Jaina.
- The Imperial Ewok
That's right! It starts in Ben's POV, then switches to Jacen when he talks to Lumiya. So that's three confirmed.
Or Leia. Maybe Karen wrote the husbands in Bloodlines and the wives in Sacrifice.
Actually, no. All her scenes are either Han, Luke, or Jacen POV.
I'm not sure that anyone has mentioned this or not but hasn't Luke already foreseen Mara's death in Betrayal. This is the strongest evidence yet of who will be the "sacrifice" in Sacrifice. The only other compelling thing that I see is Luke being in the death spot. Its really odd to me that he be there if he is not the one to die.
a lot of this evidence is pretty convicting, but i seem to remember something like a back cover talking about inferno i think that made it seem like Luke lived. Also do you think the Luke is really an acceptable sacrifice for Jacen? Its not like Jacen really holds him in high regard anymore or cares deeply for him. No, i think that the sacrifice will be closer. My bet is Leia or Han. Mara seems like she might be a possibility but i don't think there is enough emotion between the two characters.
There is a massive difference between Leia saying "we have no time for our sorrows" so that she can get on with saving everyone's lives and her telling a joke to Mara after her husband has just doed. I am certain that if Luke is the sacrifice this sample takes place before it not after it. Leia would know luke were dead and she would not be joking with mara.
I'm pretty sure the sacrifice will be Luke or Mara. I kind of want the authors to be strong and do Luke, but if they kill off Mara then we might get something we haven't seen in a while: a real brother-sister relationship between Luke and Leia. She is the reason Luke almost went to the Dark Side in ROTJ, and the reason he came back in Dark Empire. I want to see them as a brother-sister team before they eventually die, and it hasn't happened yet in LOTF.
I know this has probably been said before, but I think the "Sacrifice" will be something that will really let us down. I am a HUGE Star Wars fan and have read every book, and will continue to do so. I really think the "Sacrifice" will be Jacen's name. Even though he is currently denying it, the thing he loves the most is himself. He will sacrifice his name and reputation and become Darth ???. The Darth Who contest and this book have become so overhyped, so we are bound to be dissapointed.
To be completely honest, I kind of hope that I am right. I don't want to see Luke, Leia, Han, Jaina, Mara or Ben get killed. I don't care about Tenel Ka, but I've never got the feeling that Jacen even loves her that much to be his sacrifice.
Well, that's my two cents.
I think the scene where Jacen, Zekk, and Jaina are flying above Corellia is from Jaina's POV. Might have been Jacen's, but I dont think so.
If you mean the scene when they are enforcing the blockade line and get into the firefight with the freighter, that is Jacen's POV. We learn Jaina's feelings on the incident later, when she tells them to her uncle - in a Luke POV scene.
I think your right on. The sacrifice will be Mara or Luke. The audio excerpt is definitely towards the end of the book. So either Luke is dead and Mara is on her way to confront Lumyia (Inferno) or Luke was injured and Mara is on her way to confront Lumyia. Then she will be killed by Jacen when he sees Mara about to kill Lumyia. Similar to how his grandfather turned by slicing Mace's hand off. Leia would be devestated if Han had died to this point and even talks about getting Alema to come out of hiding again. Here is the big spoiler: Why is Luke not with Mara? The two are insperable and go on nearly every mission together! Why is Mara trying to get at Lumyia? Surely Luke wouldn't want her to do that alone.
I'm right occasionally.
That could work...
That's true, too... I checked all the scenes I thought were Jaina POV in Bloodlines, and they were Luke or Jacen.
Now this surprised me, because I thought there were scenes from Mara's POV - maybe there were, but if there weren't, I'm starting to think that maybe we really haven't seen her real POV of Jacen (and perhaps some other things as well), after all...
Technically, Luke only saw Mara "butchered" - you could read her as being alive, but in much the condition that Vader was left on Mustafar...
I'm not so sure. Just like at Yavin, they're focused here on the mission at hand - staying one step ahead of the bad guys until they can take them out. In that sort of scenario, they can clamp down on their emotions. And they can also make grim, quiet jokes, especially to other people in the same situation.
Of course, I don't think that this proves the idea that this scene occurs after Luke's death - all I'm saying is that it doesn't seem to contradict that.
Though it's odd that Mara doesn't say anything to Leia like "Luke says hi, by the way"....
This was said by Lucasfilm to be unofficial. I suspect that it may have actually been accurate, but it's not really a secure source to base speculation on...
In Betrayal, Jacen murdered a Jedi Knight - and pretty much decided to become a Sith - because he believed that he would kill Luke if he didn't, and he couldn't bear that idea.
It would make twisted sense if Jacen then decided that to affirm his Sith identity, and liberate himself from his own past as Jacen Solo, he should kill Luke...
It seems as if there's a growing number of fans who think that Jacen won't actually sacrifice somebody in this book. That would be the biggest cop out and seriously piss me off. Thankfully I have a Gift Card that I've been saving to buy Sacrifice with. After four books of build up it'd better be worth the wait.
Luke being seriously injured by Lumiya occurs already in Tempest, so I don't see that having a bearing on the time placement of this excerpt. Mara already has that motivation without Luke being injured a second time.
Maybe Traviss is going back to Old-School Mara who did go off and do what she thought needed doing without asking Luke's leave. 'Protecting my family' Mara sounds like a scary thing to me, and she's in the pseudo-Hand-mode we first see her in, in every work prior to Union. She's out to protect Luke and Ben, and Force help what gets in her way. Lumiya is perceived as the key threat, and it's her Mara's got in her sights, and without Luke there, Mara doesn't have to quibble about Luke's ethics so much and can be a bit more bloodthirsty to get the job done. Of course Luke wouldn't want her doing this alone, but Luke doesn't always get what Luke wants.
Was mace Anakin's sacrifice? or was it the Jedi in General. Everything he'd worked his whole life for, sacrificed to attempt to save his wife. Going into the temple and slaying what had essentially been his family since he left Tatooine? It's kind of hard to pinpoint where his sacrifice was, but I'm thinking it was his loyalty to the Jedi, since Palpatine named him after he betrayed Master Windu.
That was the first thing that popped into my head when I read the excerpt. And yes, the idea is very scary.
If she does die (as I sadly suspect) at least she'll go down fighting and doing what she does best instead of being joined to Luke at the hip as she usually is. Which makes me feel somewhat better about the whole thing.
On the other hand, it means that she'll fail at her final mission which is a little sad... *snuffle*
I don't think that Vader ever made a sacrifice in the specific terms Lumiya's talking about. Certainly killing Mace and the subsequent slaughter of the Jedi proved his loyalties enough for Palpatine to name him Lord Vader. But I think that in Jacen's mind (and Lumiya's) his ultimate sacrifice was Padme and his children. While (the film claims) he may not literally have been responsible for her death, he certainly reached a point where he was capable of it when he was choking her; he also believed he'd killed her so psychologically the effect was the same.
That was him destroying the thing he loved most - because he loved her more than the Jedi which was the whole problem.
Which also makes me think that Luke would be a worthy sacrifice. Even if Jacen doesn't love him more than anything else (at the moment I think that place goes to Tenel Ka and Allana), it would have a nice resonance with Vader sacrificing the reason he turned in the first place, and now Jacen doing the same - since it was fear he'd kill Luke that made him kill Nelani.
This is what I suspect, too - Mara decides to go alone in order to assure that she'll be killed. Err. You know what I mean.
Really, it seems just like the plot construct that would be included in the novel - something that made snese, but not enough sense to really make the readers happy (like Anakin Solo dying on a mission to kill a beast that should, if you think about it, easily be re-created by the Vong).
It's also partly a character reboot, which is the most simple way of appeasing character fans. And finally, people who buy the novel with "the chick from the Thrawn books", they might want exactly the chick from the Thrawn books.
The theory behind all this is that Lumiya is somehow a "truer" Sith than Palpatine and Vader. Because a "true Sith" (yeah I know know, the term already exists in another context...) would really sacrifice anything and rule as a conduct of the Force, keeping his personal emotions in check without denying them - more or less accepting negative outcomes, not unlike Jedi who accept the way of the world without emotions.
Lumiya thus somehow presents a mixture of Sith and Jedi that is essentially good (which is why Jacen falls for it). But while attachment isn't forbidden for Lumiya's Sith, total attachment is. And this is why a Sith must prove to her that he can let go of everything that's dear of him if he must - and the best proof is sacrifici
Mara's death is the one that currently makes the most narrative sense, even though, perhaps uncharitably, I feel that's the case because she's the most important one they can kill without either being vetoed by Lucas or putting the franchise in danger as opposed to it being a purely internally logical development. Also, it would least threaten the status quo.
And certainly those external pressures that may have given rise to the decision could be transformed into a compelling and moving story within the LOTF series.
But one thing I haven't worked out yet is - if Mara is killed by Jacen as his sacrifice - how they'll overcome the fact that Jacen isn't that close to Mara.
Things that immediately spring to mind: it's the fallout of killing her that constitutes his sacrifice or he's making a "hollow sacrifice" - doing as little as he can to get the Sith Secret Goodies.
To be honest - to me, and I admit that I'm probably more touchy on the subject as a Mara fan - both of those feel like they're skirting very close to the external universe reasons she's "safe" to kill and wouldn't be particularly emotionally satisfying.
I guess what I'm saying is, if Mara bites the big one in this book - quite aside from hoping that she goes down fighting! - I hope they either have a plot twist I hadn't thought of, or they don't try to pass her off as Jacen's sacrifice; just one of his victims.
Odd to want her "minimised" like that, perhaps. But I'd rather that than her death being bigged up as something hugely important when the most obvious trait of her death might well end up being that she was the "safe choice" both in and out of universe.