ST The Official "List Your Complaints About TFA" Discussion Thread

Firstly, I'm completely satisfied with TFA as the first episode of the sequel trilogy. But it just seems very, very obvious to me that it was a foundational film, not a statement regarding the boundaries of the new era. Johnson is, IMHO, a more adventurous filmmaker than Abrams with a much more interesting set of influences, and it seems clear that just as Abrams was hired in order to deliver a crowd-pleasing launchpad, Johnson was hired to be a visionary who will crack the universe wide open.

 

Hmm, I've never interpreted the MF as coming out of hyperspace in that moment.

The biggest one is probably Leia not being given any chance to remember her mother. The background in ROTJ was that Leia lived with her mother, as told by Kenobi to Luke on Dagobah, and I mention this not because it's ever been canon but because it's the reason why Luke asks Leia that question on the moon of Endor and why he specifies real mother. ROTS takes a dump on the line of dialogue by making it impossible for Leia to have any memories of Padme.

In terms of 'breaking rules', the Sith/Jedi ability to sense the presence of each other (Vader senses Kenobi on the DS, Luke senses the cave, both sense each other above Endor) is thrown out the window, likely because Lucas realised he had all his heroes having regular meetings with the villain without realising who he is. Worse is the apparent explanation that the Jedi's ability to use the Force is diminished, which just means it should be even more obvious that they're in the presence of the dark side when they're on Coruscant and in the offices of the Chancellor.

 

Palpatine doesn't sense Luke on Endor, only Vader does. So ROTJ is the one to blame there.

 

Well, Vader and Luke sense each other in orbit as the shuttle is flying near and past the Executor, similar to the end of ESB. That the Emperor doesn't either implies a distance limit or that the connection between father and son is stronger. Both are plausible but the distance thing is evident from other times in the films, eg, Vader doesn't sense Kenobi while above Tatooine, though it is blasted to bits in ROTS where the Emperor can sense Vader's peril from half the galaxy away.

 

I don't really see why we should expect a mystical-force with ill-defined rules to be consistent. Vader never senses Luke or Leia on the Death Star, despite them being related to him. Nor does Vader sense Leai on Endor, even when he learns he has a daughter.

If there's not consistency on this in the OT, why should consistency in the PT matter?

 

Vader doesn't sense his children in ANH because they weren't written to be his children yet . And there's that distance thing again in ROTJ that makes it plausible that he doesn't sense her. There's no such excuse for the PT where Yoda is literally 3 feet away from the Sith master. Mind you, the Jedi are generally written as idiots in the PT, I mean, Yoda apparently needed lightning thrown at him and to see a red lightsabre before he could 'sense' the dark side in Dooku.

 

In ROTJ, Vader senses Luke from the Executor. Leia is sitting next to him. The distance thing doesn't count then.

 

Hell, in ANH Vader “sensed” the presence of his master who was hidden in a ship in front him and turned on his heels to go in the opposite direction instead. And yet in the same movie, Vader was able to sense a Force-sensitive guy (Luke) on a very specific location (in the X-wing he was chasing). The Force never worked in a logical way since the first movie. The Jedi in the PT not sensing a Sith lord operating under their noses was at least explained by the dark side clouding their senses. I mean, that is at least more understandable to me than an intelligent man like Vader, who was able to predict the rebels’ actions, sensing “something, a presence I haven’t felt since…” in the station and not immediately realizing that that “presence” was very likely inside that extremely suspicious ship that was just captured by the DS and was standing right in front of him. Quite convenient he decided to turn around and disappear for a moment.

I don’t think George Lucas in this case broke the rules of the Force in his subsequent movies because he never established those “sensing” rules to begin with. It’s the same with Kylo Ren not immediately sensing Han behind him, which never bothered to me because the Force was never presented as a reliable GPS tracker.

 

I agree there are no rules for the force that is why it makes me angry when fans then complain about how rey uses the force. either you have to accept the force as a plot device that can be as strong or as weak as the writers want it to be, or not accept it at all (either way it is fine) what is not ok is to cherry pick when it is ok. george lucas constantly contradicts himself when it comes to the force but that is ok bc it is george. JJ and Kasdin write a strong female lead who can wield the force and omg that is not ok. lol it is just laughable

 

they don't sense Palpy because he doesn't use the Force in front of them .

Vader senses Luke and Kenobi in a 'recognition' way , he already knows their 'Force signature' if you will .

so I see it as different types of sensing the Force - you can sense the Force when someone is using it , and you can sense someone in a recognition way .

the one with Yoda sensing the deaths of the Jedi is similar to Kenobi sensing the death of Alderaan , it's such a massive amount of evil and death that they feel it across the galaxy .

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Yeah well, that pisses me off because the Force in TFA is portrayed as Instant Power Up! like inserting cheat codes in a videogame to get what you want, and it hardly serves any meaningful purpose to the plot or for Rey’s character development.

I know it feels pedantic to keep comparing the movie to ANH, but TFA just invites these comparisons.
When Luke used the Force in ANH, it was in an important plot-changing moment. The fate of the galaxy depended on his success. And part of his character development was growing from this loser farmboy who needed to constantly rely on others to not get himself captured or killed, to becoming a “Jedi like his father” who is finally able to be a cunning warrior like Anakin Skywalker and save others instead. The use of the Force in the movie was not just an intrinsic element of the plot and Luke’s character, it also gave a meaning to the story. We are told that “the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force” and the movie proved it. It’s also satisfying to see Luke successfully using the Force to save the galaxy after the movie showed us a scene of him and Han arguing if the Force was real or not, with Luke being presented (in Han’s eyes) as this naïve dumb believer.

When Rey uses the Force, she uses it randomly without ever being necessary to the plot whatsoever or signifying a significant change in her character development, with maaayybe the sole exception of her accepting the Force at the very end (even though her character development was about accepting her new family and moving on, but whatever, I guess the movie needed a quick reason to explain why Rey and not Poe or Leia went to pick up Luke in the end). Up until then, Rey using the Force like “omg I have no idea what I just did tee-hee!” not only reduces the religious nature of Force and its importance to cheap plot device to pull Rey out of her every predicament, it also gives no significant meaning to the story. In the end, the Starkiller Base was destroyed regardless of the Force, Kylo Ren overcame his conflict and killed Han Solo regardless of the Force*, Rey willingly left Jakku regardless of the Force, Luke was found regardless of the Force, and the Force just pops up randomly in Rey to explain the title.

And yeah, I don't like it. It's not cherry picking to dislike the way the Force is portrayed in a movie, just because no rules were canonically established. Many people also did not like the midichlorians in the PT because it made the Force look too scientific. For me, TFA made the Force look like a cheap plot device that exists to submissively serve one character whenever it’s convenient to her, regardless of said character's agency, empirical knowledge, beliefs and motives.

* unless Episode VIII decides to make it an important plot point about why Anakin’s lightsaber flew to Rey instead of Kylo. If not, then that scene was just another superfluous addition to make Rey look badass when she could have just picked the lightsaber from the snow and it would have had the same exact meaning (Rey accepting the lightsaber).

 

As I've said before, the Jedi sense emotions. Vader and Luke sense each other because they are the main focus of each others lives at that point. Vader is thinking of Luke, and has feelings towards him, Luke senses Vader's emotions and then Vader senses Luke thinking of him! Vader wouldn't sense Kenobi on Tatooine because Obi-Wan is a master, in control of his emotions. The Emperor can sense Vader from half way across the galaxy because Vader is the epitome of anger at that moment. He is sending out emotional shock waves through the force which the Emperor can detect. The force always makes sense from this point of view. It's only JJ and Kasdan who apparently don't know how the force works.

The force works in a perfectly logical way. Vader sensed Obi-Wan because Obi-Wan wanted him to. It was Obi-Wan's plan to confront Vader there and then. As I said previously, the Jedi sense emotions. Palpatine is a disguise not only in appearance, but in mentality. He is a dual personality. The Jedi sense him as being what he appears to be. Also, the "shroud of the dark side fallen." The Jedi cannot sense things on the scale the once could. This is why they can't sense Sidious. And only Yoda seems to be able to sense distant events because he is the strongest with the force.

The force is always about emotions. This is what the Jedi detect and feel. They don't read minds and they aren't telepathic.

 

I always assumed his knowlegde of Leia was from Luke's own mind. Like Vader could get a much better reading into his inner thoughts because Luke was angry and unchained. When he discovered who Luke was is still a mystery. Perhaps it was after he discovered where Obi Wan had been hiding.

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The talk about TFA being a kind of foundation makes no sense to me. It's basically admitting that the movie is weak. I don't get the excuse that it's a reboot either. What are these comic book movies? Star Wars is an ongoing timeline. Why would Star Wars ever need rebooting?

 

we must watch different movies then bc rey used the force to block kylo from reading her mind and finding out where luke is, she also used it to save finn's life who was the one who knew how to take down star killer bases shields. lets see luke can barely wield a lightsaber than can destroy the deathstar. Also jedi hopping and doing ridiculous tricks/stunts in the prequels like superman just before he learns to fly has such religious importance "rolls eyes". its there bc it looks cool not because of any religious importance. The truth is THE FORCE IS A CHEAP PLOT DEVICE PERIOD. It is a trope like a sleeper agent or the fake out. like I said look at how the force is used in the OT is nothing like PT which is nothing like the FA, which is alos nothing like the video games, which is also not like the novels rather you look at old canon or new canon. The force once again is either as powerful or useless as the writers see fit.

 

Rather a bit of a cynic you seem. I see religious connotations to the Force as well and the different presentations are because they are all done by different people. Just because one doesn't like something doesn't automatically make it invalid or wrong. You can stress your self all you like but it doesn't grant it anymore validity than anyone else's.

 

The Force is only a cheap plot device when it works in predictable ways or is used like magic out of a video game or something. We see the whole buildup with Luke's belief in the force in the first movie, and it comes across as much a part of his character as it was almost a product of destiny. Luke is young and credulous but that is part of what makes his character pure and in tune with the Force. It isn't a whole lot different from Zatoichi being a superior swordsman because he uses a calm mind and hypersensitive hearing to enhance his ability to fight - he's simply on a different plane of consciousness than all of the simpletons and greedy ronin he cuts down.

In contrast, the prequels have Yoda throwing people around and doing ridiculous acrobatics because the force allows him to overcome his advanced age until his power meter runs out or he gets another force capsule after breaking into the right barrel. Also get a killstreak and you get a minute of force lightning, if you selected dark side in the menu and have a red lightsaber.

 

It is important to portray the force as a skill that one has to train and a philosophy that has to be understood, before one can use it to masterful effect. This is how force effects will appear to be "earned". If someone can just use the force by simply trying once or twice (Rey), it will seem cheap. Say what you will about Kylo, but he has trained the force for years unlike Rey.

Ironically, Han Solo's sentence applies: "This is not how the force works."

 

Except the Force is not a skill...it's almost entirely about self-belief and instinct.

Luke only had a couple of tries and some vague advice from Ben before he was able to block laser blasts, and had practically no training before he was using it to help make an almost impossible shot. Then had absolutely no training to learn telekinesis and no training to learn how mind trick. These are self-taught talents. Rey's abilities to use the Force are arguably more convincing and natural than Luke's, as they derive from either instinct or a lesson following having someone poking about in their mind.

 

At least he didn't beat a trained darksider in his first fight even after he trained with Yoda.

 

It never ceases to amaze me that on the one hand, the complaint is that Kylo Ren just isn't as imposing as Darth Vader, yet on the other hand, he's assumed to be as big a threat when it comes to the lightsaber duel.

They foreshadow the fact that he's not as strong as Vader by putting those exact words in Rey's mouth. And yet you think he should be impossible for Rey to defeat?

 

Honestly I never saw him as a convincing threat, period. Most of his scenes were more for comical relief than serious.

As for Rey defeating him, a good comparison would be like if Ezra with no training whatsoever was able to defeat the Grand Inquisitor in a lightsaber battle.

 

only a few complaints for me the major one being killing off han. but other then that i was disappointed with no lando and wedge

 

@ Artoo-Dion

Maybe people can have differing opinions on the same thing? Kylo seems to be a divisive subject. I think that Kylo losing to a beginner was a misstep that makes it hard to respect his ability which is shown as great in the rest of the movie.

While I think TFA was a fun film in general, the finale was too far-fetched to swallow. While Kylo seems to forget that he can "freeze" people or all of his other impressive force-skills, Rey can suddenly use telekinesis against him which she never saw anyone do in the whole movie...

I consider "connecting to the force through the right mindset and outlook" a skill that has to be mastered through training. It's clearly not just base instinct if you listen to Yoda's advice (following all your impulses will let you fall to the dark side pretty quickly). And I don't know how Luke reflecting the bolts in a peaceful environment under guidance of Obi-Wan is the same as what Rey does. Luke just took he very first step into a larger world.

And your are speculating regarding the tk. Luke was taught by Obi even after ANH. This isn't an ANH thread, but I never assumed that Obi simply "disappeared" between ANH and TESB after saying that he grew more powerful than Vader could possibly imagine, communicating with Luke in ANH (and in the EU) plus TESB-Vader saying "Obi-Wan taught you well". I don't know about you, but it doesn't make much sense for me that he wouldn't continue teaching Luke...

 

I don't mind at all that he's kind of a weakling in this one. It's the one thing they actually did completely differently this time, by having the dark lord actually be more of a beginner. I think what everyone is complaining about is how Rey is powerful without explanation, or that she is midichlorian strong and that there is nothing else to it.

 

thats my pt, the creator george himself never decided what he wanted the force to be or if he did he changed his mind when he made the prequels, I agree in A New Hope there seemed to be religious undertones and being the chosen one. But when the PT came george decided he wanted it to be more scientific hence the midichlorians mumbo jumbo. Also lucas is a far more visual director than a character director, so lets make it clear if he had the abilities and technology that is around now he would have had obi wan and vader jumping around in the OT. All you have to do is look at some of the scenes he added in the updated versions of the OT, prime example being the cgi alien singing in jabba's palace in RTJ.

I just look at the real reasons why the force is the way it is and not try to make stuff up to make things fit in a timeline. why cant vader sense luke on the deathstar like he did obi wan, simple bc vader was not yet written to be luke's father, not bc of overly complicated force powers. why did luke kiss leia; hopefully not bc george has some strange incest fetish but bc he had not yet decided they were twins, and he also not yet decided if he wanted leia to end up with luke or han.

As far as Rey besting kylo ren, the one area that some folks forget is JJ and Kasdin go out of the way throughout the movie to show how strong chewy's bow caster truly is. It is shown I think three different times blowing enemies off the screen and cracking armor of the storm troopers. So when chewy gut shots kylo, it is amazing he doesnt bleed out and die right there. That shot greatly reduced his ability to fight if you ask me.

Even though I love the force awakens im not blind to its problems. I think it has some pacing issues, even though the first 30 to 40 minutes of the movie are perfect to me. The MIB scene as I call it was just bad, with bad Special effects. I also was not a huge fan of Maz and her castle although I did love the force dream. Star Killer base was stupid, and just like the destruction of Alderaan had no impact on me in a new hope bc of bad writing and bad acting, the destruction of the republic also had no real impact on me bc of the writing in the force awakens. Just my thoughts