ST The Official "List Your Complaints About TFA" Discussion Thread

Quite a harsh way for a father to treat a son. Not recommended.

By the way, wouldn't grabbing the stump like that make it hurt even more!?

 

I'll write a letter to Dr. Pepper asking about dismemberment.

 

I am also from the UK and I found Finn to be the most pointless and shallow character in the movie. The characterisation wasn't helped by the quite frankly, laughably bad writing and poor performance of the chap who played him.

 

"Quite frankly, laughably bad writing"

Mate, please rein it in a little bit. You can have complaints without being so inflammatory. You don't like the writing. Critique all y9u like. Calling it "laughably bad" insults others.

 

How does it insult others exactly? In my opinion the writing was laughably bad, I never attacked others who disagree with that opinion. It is also a complaint; as in I'm complaining that I found the writing to be laughably bad, it wasn't something I wanted to find after seeing the movie and it had a negative impact on my thoughts towards the movie. Therefore, a complaint.

 

What makes it laughable? To me it was more disappointing.

 

This is not up for discussion. It's been addressed already, as copied below. Move along.

 

Was it 'laughably bad writing' like Batman v Superman level, Attack of the Clones level or one of those Sharknado movies? Just trying to get a sense of your metrics.

 

Sharknado is in its own category that eschews all forms of classification.

 

I like Finn, his story is one we never saw in the SW movies before contrary to some of the new characters. He's definitively the one who has the most potential for development in an unpredictable way.

 

EHT OK, just playing devil's advocate here. Does SKB not seem like something that Spaceballs 2 would have in it? Because it totally is. That's one thing you could debatably call laughable.

 

Luke's lack of dialogue. It was a brilliant move and I love it, but I can't stand it

 

Why are you tagging me with this question? I hope you're not playing some sort of game. If, however, you just want to state your own personal opinions as such without bashing or baiting other users, that's fine.

 

I'm curious about the level of hate/dislike that TFA gets. Is it actually high? Before, you got PT bashing everywhere you go. Now surprisingly to me it seems that they got replaced by TFA bashing. I'm genuinely intrigued by this phenomenon. Is there some kind of explanation for this?

 

Like with PT bashing, you'll see it more on the internet than elsewhere. Most people probably don't care either way and then, there's the fans.

 

I have it in 7th place.

 

I agree the preponderance of available canonical evidence supports the notion that lightsaber skill increases through time and training. Though I am guilty of needlessly overcomplicating the discussion regarding Rey with pedantic insights from archaic sources, I strongly believe this is unnecessary. I think it is obvious, at first glance, that the result of this saber duel is implausible.

It is simply sensible that an individual would find it difficult to conduct swordsmanship with an energy weapon they are unacquainted with.
It is simply sensible that an individual should suffer some negative effects from a devastating force push.
It is simply sensible that an individual who has never performed telekinesis should not outperform a telekinetic expert.
It is simply sensible that an individual accustomed to a desert environment, and wearing desert clothes would find a cold battleground challenging.
It is simply sensible that... ad nauseam...

Finn's background is of great interest to me. I find it unbelievable that the writers of this duel could believe Finn was as elite as the author of Before the Awakening so clearly did. And because of this I can simply conclude that the architects of this duel did not perform their due diligence in trying to maintain the duel's plausibility.

I have seen many defenses of the duel, and one thing they all have in common is a complication of the scenario. For instance, Kylo may be a telekinetic expert, and Rey may have never performed that ability, but perhaps the blade chose her. I believe this is a common theme throughout most of the subsets of this long spanning debate. To me, it is painstakingly obvious that the duel intended to show a healthy Rey versus an injured Kylo. But, it failed miserably because obviously Rey should be injured, and Kylo was still capable of swordsmanship. It is an obvious oversight, the directors did not take in to consideration the likely effects of that force push. Another obvious oversight is the attire of Rey. She would simply be too cold to fight, too cold to think. Of course, the only significance of this is the recognition of oversight, this in itself would hardly be unnoticed if the other issues weren't so glaring.

 

Let's start there. Why?

It's basically a hot, glowing stick. Swords aren't exactly complex weapons, and they can be used crudely with ease.

 

It is my opinion that a sword would have to be used more than crudely to be effective in her situation. I care little for the peculiarities that may or may not be present when wielding a lightsaber. Simply switching from a staff to a sword, in such a situation, would present significant difficulty. You must think little of Kylo's ability to believe crude skill should overcome him. If a lightsaber were a weapon only force sensitives could use, I actually think that benefits the plausibility of the fight. It makes little sense to me that Rey who should be decidedly out of her element would be a more proficient melee combatant than a 99th percentile trooper trained from birth; Finn being unable to properly wield a lightsaber would do much to explain this. But, non-force wielders have adequately used the lightsaber in canon for some time now. Hell, in the Clone Wars a non-force sensitive (tor Vizla) held his own against legendary force sensitive duelists in saber combat. Finn even had a lightsaber experience previously, which Rey did not. He was bested, but by another solider trained from birth.

 

I don't think this is true. I don't think an untrained person can just pick up a sword and start swinging it with intention to kill an opposing swordsman without considerable risk of harming themselves (nevermind actually winning). Many, many people have hurt themselves "playing" with swords, they're incredibly sharp and it only takes one tiny mistake. I know a guy who gave himself a deep gash just mock dueling by himself. He wasn't an uncoordinated clown, either, he was a trained soldier, well versed with guns and knives. If that had been a lightsaber he had been playing with, he wouldn't have walked away from the accident at all, instead of ultimately walking away with nothing more than a long scar.

There's a reason you don't let beginners even handle sharp swords. You start them with blunt swords.

People burn themselves with blowtorches all the time, not doing anything nearly as complex as swinging a lightsaber around in a duel.

For me, it's the extreme cutting ability of the lightsaber that makes me opposed to them being used by the untrained. You make a mistake with a sword, you walk away with a scar. You make a mistake with a lightsaber, you don't walk away at all.

That's why the old EU came up with training lightsabers with the heat/cutting ability toned way down to just give a minor burn, instead of dismemberment.

I also don't like the idea of a person who hasn't put in any of the work straight up beating someone who definitely has. I don't like the idea of the Force being a simple "I WIN" button for newbs. ANH is a long way behind us.

But, ultimately, Rey's lack of training and experience, while lame, can be overlooked if fun is provided. It wasn't. It's one of the worst duels of the saga, perhaps the most boring.

 

Firstly, I thought this was the "duel in TFA" thread, so, apologies.

Anyway, yes, I do think little of Kylo's ability. He's got some skills, obviously, but he knows that someone like Vader could easily best him, and his character is defined by the fact that he's a try-hard and a poseur. So it's really not surprising that a fighter gifted at melee combat who lets the Force in beats a gravely wounded Kylo who isn't nearly as good as he wants to believe. Don't forget that we see Rey beating up thugs earlier.

But really, she's on the backfoot throughout the first half of the duel. She's using the saber as a crude weapon in both phases, and she's not really using it the way anyone specifically trained in saber technique would use it. The difference in the second half of the duel is that the Force allows her to anticipate and counter his moves. She's "in the zone".

In the case of Star Wars, though, Obi-Wan was letting Luke train with a full lightsaber within 24 hours of handing it to him... blindfolded, no less. It's a dangerous weapon, but it's never treated as a "OMG Don't even touch that! You may kill yourself!" kind of danger.

As for "worst" and "most boring", I'd rank it ahead of any of the PT duels and maybe the best since ESB. To me. it actually tells a real story, unlike the PT duels, which struck me as pure spectacle.

 

What story do you think it tells?

 

It tells us firstly about Kylo's neuroses, Finn's bravery and Rey's ownership of her own fate. Finn's arc is resolved because he decides to stand up to Kylo Ren even though he knows that he's almost certainly a dead man--for most of the movie, Finn is running away. Kylo's moves against Finn are flashy and more about him reassuring himself of his greatness.

When he goes to take the saber, but is shocked when it lands in Rey's hands--a moment that encapsulates their dynamic beautifully. The scavenger has what he believes is rightfully his. He then hunts her like prey in order to claim her as his instead, but she fights back and shows him, decisively, that his sense of entitlement is completely misplaced. Fate intervenes and they are separated, knowing that this fight is hardly over.

 

Vader being stronger than Kylo isn't a big deal because Vader is one of the strongest force users the Star Wars universe has seen. I personally think it's ridiculous that a scavenger on Jakku 'gifted in melee combat' should be in the same stratosphere as a trained force sensitive. If anyone should be gifted in melee combat according to their backstories, it is Finn. Combat was an important of Rey's upbringing, sure, but combat was the sole intent of Finn's upbringing. Beyond that, the question should be whether she was gifted in lightsaber combat. And, I of course don't think these skills would be transferable. The differences between a staff and a sword are obvious. Reach, techniques, hand grips, and hand mobility would all be different. You mention Kylo was gravely wounded, but fail to note the obvious fact that Rey should be injured as well. Beyond that, why do you say Kylo is 'gravely injured' while fighting Rey? He took additional wounds from Rey while being 'gravely wounded' according to you, and I'm sure he'll live through it. I haven't forgotten Rey beat up thugs on Jakku, I just concluded beating up unarmed thugs with a staff is not comparable to defeating a force user in saber combat.

Kylo has several years of training under his belt, has killed jedi in saber combat, is Master of the Knights of the Ren, and a dark sided Skywalker. Aside from observing Kylo's bizarre widely criticized interactions with Rey, I'm not really sure how one concludes Kylo isn't a force powerhouse.

I'm not sure why it's important for you to comment that she was in the zone, unless you are trying to credit external forces for her victory.

 

I'm not sure how you arrive at crediting external factors with being "in the zone". I'm talking about flow, which is internal state.

Components of flow, per Wikipedia:

1. Intense and focused concentration on the present moment
2. Merging of action and awareness
3. A loss of reflective self-consciousness
4. A sense of personal control or agency over the situation or activity
5. A distortion of temporal experience, one's subjective experience of time is altered
6. Experience of the activity as intrinsically rewarding, also referred to as autotelic experience

In addition...

1. "Immediate feedback"
2. Feeling that you have the potential to succeed
3. Feeling so engrossed in the experience, that other needs become negligible

Furthermore...

This is basically the Force in Star Wars. Rey let the Force in--she was "'in the zone" or entered a flow state. See also: Luke at the climax of ANH. External factors have nothing to do with it.