ST The Official "List Your Complaints About TFA" Discussion Thread

This is one of the many reasons why Rogue One >>> TFA

Darth Vader's end scene in RO shows what is supposed to happen when a powerful force user goes up against non force users. This is also consistent with Luke taking out dozens at Jabba's palace or Vader (pre suit) taking out the trade federation guys.

In TFA we see Finn who's non force sensitive and has zero light saber training landing a hit on Kylo Ren.

That's like one of the rebel guards picking up a lightsaber and getting a hit in on Vader at the end of Rogue One. Utterly ridiculous.

 

MidKnighT

i really just think it says more about the psychology of kylo ren than about his "force powers." aside from the hole in his gut from the bowcaster he was intentionally prolonging the fight with finn so he could do things like burn him in the shoulder with his lightsaber vent. he was emotionally off balance while also being arrogant like a sith (but no sith eyes; he's not tapping the full power of the dark side, not even close), and he underestimated finn (the lowly stormtrooper). after finn got a hit, he finished the fight quickly.

(i still think it's possible finn might be force-sensitive. i don't think it is most likely, but it's not unlikely enough in my mind to discount... and it's mainly in response to what the movie itself brings forward... finn with the lightsaber has meaning and significance i bet (it was a deliberate choice to put it in there... twice); though it may say more about what the force is now or something than about finn... its significance may be more metaphorical.)

and i think that just using it as a misdirect is just bad in a story. i would hope they actually have a character/story relevant reason for this. i know that anyone can technically pick up a lightsaber and use it, but the point is this is new in these films, and i can't believe it has no relevance to anything (other than trying to mix us up).

 

I wish Luke actually said something!

 

None of those rebel dudes had lightsabers..? Plus, Finn is a trained soldier. Kylo was injured, mentally ****ed and was clearly playing with Finn.

 

First of all, thanks for providing the list, much appreciated. Have been a bit busy so haven't had time to respond. I'll respond to each in a second, but thought it first worth acknowledging that your response highlighted my poor wording and vague explanation as to how I believe she does not need to be helped. The issue I have is that she is always commanding (directing) and whenever there is real peril (outside of where she has no avenue to aid herself), she by in large is the reason that everyone survives; she is not someone who shows any real reliance or want of reliance on others (as a normal person would). People assist Rey far too often, rather than helping in some sort of equal way(other than a couple below).

1. The tie-fighters don't hit them.Not sure how ducking or anything like that is saving someone when it is akin to ducking from a bullet after you hear gunshots.
2. Finn aids, but again there is no proof given her vast force skills that she would in fact be shot out of the sky. Advice is simply advice.
3. It is Rey who saves Finn. She is the one who gets them to safety and there is no reason to believe Finn was necessary for her escape. Finn supporting, Rey leading.
4. Rey needs Finn as a sidekick. A trained monkey could have assisted. Rey again was in charge and Finn was a lackey.
5. Not sure how this helps as it doesn't end up being effective.
6. Agreed. Han helps her only because she has no way to know where to go.
7. He offers a gun and her response perfectly encapsulates what was wrong with this movie and why Rey has a nickname.
8. Maz spoke in riddles and it is unclear if this is where she unlocks her powers. The sabre appeared to do it IMO.
9. Agreed. This is one of two for me where someone really helps Rey when she is peril, though ultimately it is Rey who saves him
10. This is the most obvious one for me where she is helped, but only because she has no way to save herself - aside: I would love to know how he knew where to fly to find her..
11 Not sure how they are helping Rey since she is not one the concerned with finding Luke.

I trust you will disagree with most if not all of what I have said. And that's cool. To each their own.

 

i thought i would make a luke anh list for fun

1. obi-wan saves luke from the sand people
2. obi-wan protects luke from those freaks in the cantina
3. not sure if R2 shutting off the trash compactor counts
4. obi-wan sends luke signals through the force twice, telling him to "run" and later to use the force (that saves him from vader until han arrives)
5. i can't remember which pilots might have helped luke
6. han gets rid of luke's pursuers so he can blow the death star

in comparison

1. rey was captured by kylo ren (unable to save herself from that)
2. they cut the scene where chewie defends rey from unkar plutt (which involved plutt losing an arm at maz's "cantina")
3. chewie shows up with the falcon to get rey and finn off starkiller
4. kylo ren reminds rey inadvertently about the force and waits while she meditates
5. um finn goes to starkiller specifically to get rey
6. finn confronts kylo ren while rey is unconscious

chewie shooting kylo ren with the bowcaster ends up really helping rey later

luke may have a few more damsel in distress points. or not. it's really hard to evaluate.

 

Let me just respond to number 7. The point of her response is to show that she is young and overconfident, and still has a lot to learn. Indeed, Han says exactly that. And sure enough, Han is proven correct when she needs the gun. And then, unlike the "nickname" you allude to, she is incapacitated, captured and imprisoned. In other words, Rey is indeed shown to be flawed. She's often looking backward, and she doesn't work so well with others. And did you ever stop and consider that this is the case because she's lived alone in a harsh place for most of her life? Everything she does, apart from her swift force powers, are justified by her background. And I suspect there's a reason behind her hyper-attunement to the force that we just haven't seen yet.

 

After a year of these kinds of discussions, I've realised that some people have no intention of changing their opinion of Rey (and Finn too). Every time a list is posted and examples are cited, the response is nearly always 'yes but...' followed by a selective interpretation of what we actually see in the film. Usually this involves demeaning or devaluing other characters (mostly Finn) in an effort to give greater weight to Rey, plus an exaggeration of her accomplishments.

So you don't like that Rey takes charge of situations. Let's look at that closely then. Finn takes charge in leading her away from the stormtroopers and TIEs, Rey takes back that lead to find a ship to outrun the TIEs and tells Finn to go to the gunner seat. Finn then takes it back to tell her to fly low. 'Are you ever going to fire back?' Rey takes over again, but Finn fires straight back with a comment about the shields and later says to find cover. Clear teamwork gets them through this (despite your bizarre attempt to reframe this as Finn not being necessary) and there's plenty of back and forth with both characters giving directions to each other. With Han, he always takes over, except when she just pulls out the compressor without asking and that's a character moment for each of them (Han can't believe she just did that to his ship, and Rey is so surprised and happy to have done something that worked).

You don't like how she is by in large the reason everyone survives when there is real peril. Ok, let's look at this one. She has no impact at all on Takodana and no impact at all on Starkiller Base, the two biggest moments of peril in the story. In the first instance everyone survives because of Poe and Leia coming to the rescue (Rey excluded), and in the second it's Poe and Chewbacca who take down the Oscillator and save the Resistance. So this one isn't even remotely accurate. There's some argument to be made that she saves Han and Chewie from the gangs, but she does so by unleashing greater risk to them all.

Next, she's "not someone who shows any real reliance or want of reliance on others (as a normal person would)". This one is just odd. Part of this is her character flaw, she has a fierce streak of independence born from her upbringing on Jakku. But the whole film charts the breaking down of this independence, that's her arc. She goes from 'off you go droid' to reluctantly leaving her coma-stricken friend to become a student of the last Jedi. You can't get more dependent than that. Besides, when has any other hero in this sage not shown at one point in time no real reliance or want of reliance from others? Luke wanted to pilot himself, Han was always doing his own thing, Leia wasn't the least bit impressed or grateful with her rescue at first. All have had similar instances in their arcs.

As for the general notion that people assist rather than help Rey. You seem to accept the two cases where this isn't the case, but you're reluctant to do so and trying to devalue them, which speaks volumes about how you're using a conclusion to back up your supporting evidence, instead of the other way around.

 

TFA was Han's film. TLJ will be Luke's.

 

Honestly I think a lot of these lists trying to equate Rey to Luke in terms of vulnerability are seriously reaching and as Darth Pig mentions do generally amount to scenes in which she was taking the lead only to be helped somewhat by another character who shows less competence. Personally I found her rejection of the force vision and the meekness of her capture by Kylo hard to relate to what we saw either side of them, as rather cheap setup for her accepting the force and then defeating Kylo. Sorry but for me Rey is an absolute textbook example of a character who uses competence and audience wish fulfilment in the place of strong drama.

 

I think that is a very fair and reasoned argument and for that scene is spot on.

However, why I disagree with it, is the context surrounding the moment (before and after) regarding her actions. My view of Rey is the sum parts of all of her actions put together and whilst assessed individually may be innocent, when compiled, form a pattern and trend.

Anyhoo - thanks for the debate. I know how passionate it can get in here (as is shown in other posts), so appreciate the civil nature.

 

Likewise. It's getting harder and harder to have a civil discourse these days. Might as well start somewhere.

 

I think the real problem is that you see a pattern emerge where Rey showing amazing abilities takes the place of Rey growing as a character which also has the effect of damaging other characters.

I don't necessarily think that Rey should be confined to Luke's levels of competence, Jyn for example is clearly more competent than Luke at the start of ANH BUT the major climax's around her have a strong dramatic basis, Galens message and his death obviously have an effect on shifting her from disillusionment towards selfless heroism. When Rey leaves Jakku it should be a moment of personal drama with her giving up waiting for her family for a selfless cause, instead its all a big action sequence with her showing amazing piloting ability. Then when Rey faces off Kylo theres been no effort made to build up why this matters, Kylo is the badguy threating her who she again shows amazing ability in beating.

Within Rogue One Jyn can obviously more than look after herself that doesn't really limit those around her at all because theres no need for her competence to be exceptional. Finn on the other hand largely becomes the cheapest of plot devices at points as a comedy sidekick who exists to play up the competence of the lead.

To me Abrams as a film maker/writer is servely lacking in depth that the OT had, admittedly he's in quite good company with a lot of blockbuster directors/writters today but when you see a film like Rogue One go for something more it becomes obvious, hopefully the same is true for The Last Jedi.

 

I agree with that, there was a certain lack of narrative build up for the Kylo/Rey showdown. I think the movie was counting on the audience’s attachment to Han so that we would root for Rey, as the audience surrogate, to avenge his death. But Rey and Han had just met and even though they liked each other, it never felt like that bond was that deep to me.

I did wish that fight would have been more personal for Rey - as in, a result of something that Kylo did to her, and not to the OT idol she fangirled over. Like, instead of having Rey scaring Kylo away with her amazing out of the blue powers, have a scene where Kylo leaves her mentally or physically beaten – something more similar to Luke vs Vader, or Sarah Connor vs everyone, or really any other iconic great hero that first gets humiliated and owned before they earn their moment to shine against their opponents.

That would not only raise the stakes for the final confrontation, it would also make it a hell lot more intense and emotional. “This time, it’s my turn to make you crawl.” It would also contribute to giving her a stronger agency in that fight.

But it was like movie shied away from letting her getting hurt (I mean, outside of her abstract issues with her abstract, not-in-the-movie family) and it just felt like she was being way too overprotected by the writers, like your typical power fantasy action hero that spends the entire movie kicking ass without anything particularly bad happening to them.

And I agree that Rogue One handled Jyn’s arc better, but that is probably also because Jyn’s narrative goal was more similar to Luke in ANH: to prove herself worthy to the Rebellion/audience as someone that can strike a victory against the Empire after spending half of the movie being a very unconvincing hero.

Rey didn’t have to prove anything to anyone from the start; she was already presented as a perfect hero and everyone she met fell in love with her. Clearly, her arc was more about discovering her innate powers, letting go of Jakku and discovering her nemesis in Kylo Ren, but that felt like it was too quickly resolved by the end. Wished we got a scene of her saying goodbye to Jakku or expressing her reasons why she wants to go to Luke. Her innate powers were handed to her on a silver platter along with the Millennium Falcon and the rest of the OT iconography without her having so much to break a sweat or needing a motivation for it. And in both her confrontations with Kylo Ren she beat him mentally, physically and with the Force (the lightsaber pull). I don’t care how “the Force works” or if Kylo was injured/weak/whatever, that just felt an underwhelming hero arc to me.

 

Indeed, its not uncommon these days were audience wish fulfilment seems to drive a lot of blockbusters but that's not really a high standard of storytelling for me.

As I'v said previously in this thread I think her force abilities should have come up much earlier in the film as a kind of subconious power leaking out, say when the goons try and steal BB-8 she force pushes them off or perhaps have her vision happen much earlier as a recurring dream/vision which causes her abilities to manifest. Basically get a chance to know what Rey thinks about the force, say that its something linked to negative visions of her abandonment or something the locals hate/fear her for. It would also potentially play up the link to Kylo if he's been in her nightmares for years beforehand rather than someone she vaguely saw once a few hours beforehand.

Also as I'v said before I think Han should have moved much more into the mentor role rather than taking the easy route of trying to reset him to ANH, older wiser with something to say about the force(as an outsider), Kylo, etc thus negating the need for Maz to exist and making his death more meaningful. As it is the film has Kylo claim that "Han is like a father" to her when really what do we see? some limited banter about engineering and him offering her a job? doesn't exactly seem like a deep relationship to me.

 

This is the basic problem with remaking ANH.

TFA is not ANH but it wants to be. It relies far too much on the previous movies for it's story and characters to work.

Does it work in a general sense? Sure. As you state above that is why we are supposed to care. So many things are done in a perfunctory way. Han is the mentor figure and we are to believe that her bond with Han is akin to Luke and Obi-Wan.

For some I guess it works well but without the reference to what happens in ANH I don't think it would. It's one thing for the movies being seen as a whole to work together to enhance but TFA is entirely too dependent.

I think the interrogation scene qualifies for that overall but they didn't really use it that way and as you say she beat him there as well. Instead they made it about Han or tried to.

I think that using the former rather than the latter would have been as you describe. The problem with it from their point of view is that then makes Rey not as heroic as they want her to be. Be it her or Finn the approach is that they don't want to really have them be seen in a negative light. Even Finn's cowardice comes from utter fear more than Han in ANH were he isn't afraid he just is selfish.

It feels like they wanted to have the hurt but glance over it and really not make it truly impactful. If we actually got the story of why she is alone on Jakku then her leaving it behind would be far stronger.

I don't think it was near as much about that for Jyn originally. She was trying to redeem her father like Luke (or as it turns out his name as opposed to him personally as he was rebelling already). I think the reshoots hurt her character because it seems they decided they didn't want to emphasize that she in fact was an extreme rebel already.



They pretty successfully sidestepped the fact that she spent years with Saw and was a child soldier that continued on for years. They really cut around some of the interactions she had early on. It's quite choppy as they decided to take out so much of that character. I would say the character arc was that she was going down the same path as Saw. Maybe that is where the cut "What will you become?" ie like him. I wonder if she was even running her own cadre of rebels at some point.

Yes I noted at the time how much of what happens with her (Finn as well) is done in what I would call a very assuming way. I don't think that breaking it down that it actually works that well in the details but in the end they get to where they are supposed to be. So they arrive at the destination but it's sort of done on fast forward and is more dependent on us filling in the details.

My point is that if Luke in ANH had been handled the way Rey was then I don't think we'd be talking about it.

 

I agree very much with your point about the lifted elements of ANH not fitting nearly as well with TFA's story Qui-Riv-Brid. The problem for me is that your dealing with a plot created to tell one set of characters stories then reusing it to try and tell a different set of stories. Most obviously the Deathstar makes perfect sense in ANH as the castle/lair the hero rescues the princess(albeit a very non standard one) from and then as his big test of courage. SKB in TFA on the other hand makes very little sense to the character stories for me, it ends up being more of a distraction than anything else.

Not sure I'd say Jyn was following Luke, I think her arc was much more from disillusionment to selflessness. Personally I think the stuff with Saw is fine as it is, you get a good feeling for the characters relationship. If theres an issue I would say personally its that the jump from her rescue to arriving on Yavin feels a bit sudden both in terms of now showing time spent traveling and not showing her character a bit more. A scene a minute or two long on a rebel transport with her showing general apathy to the rebellion could have helped a lot with both.

 

i saw the han thing as a bit more personal to rey in an underlying way. kylo ren had everything rey has wanted. he had two loving parents (although at this point, rey only met han, but was beginning to spin him in her mind into a father figure), a family he belonged in, and he threw it away. and then he kills his father. it's not only that rey by this point loved han (and i too kind of had to pass over how they really had just met), but she's watching kylo destroy the thing that has been most important to her, something that is sacred to her. beyond that he mocks it in a way with the comment "han solo can't save you now." that's what prompts her to raise her blaster in his direction.

there are several issues though as this would have been more meaningful in a way if rey had also met leia before the end fight on starkiller. and although i think she figures out that kylo is han's son, there isn't enough in the movie to show that she actually knows this (in fact one could argue she doesn't know it).

but anyway han is coming to fill a void in her for family/belonging, and kylo kills him. because he represents a father figure, it's kind of like losing her family emotionally and the fury she fights kylo with is about what she has lost (her family) being taken from her again. finn is also becoming "like family" and he was the one whose idea it was to come back for her (to not abandon her), and kylo has hurt finn badly. he's taking her people from her and she is enraged.

eta: also earlier in the film she kind of lost her coping mechanism... she's been facing that her family is never coming back, that her days on jakku waiting for them are over... and that would cause internal grief because it would feel like losing them in a way.

eta2: oh dear i just thought of something else... what if just as kylo is a wanna-be vader in the film, rey is kind of a wanna-be luke. luke goes off into adventure and runs right into his long lost family: leia and vader. that was lucky.

 

I think this could have been a good direction to take things but really I have to say I don't think we actually see it within TFA at all. I think part of Han becoming more of a mentor to Rey should have been his talking about Kylo(or perhaps "Ben" without revealing he's Kylo) so that she can have an opinion on him. As it is I think Kylo kind of represents the worst of both worlds, he's kept mysterious without any real depth then the reveal is greatly lacking in drama.

The key with Obi Wan I think isn't just how long Luke spends with him onscreen(including being saved by him several times) but what he represents, he's Luke's link to his father and his path to the heroic adventure he dreams of.

 

Certainly it means Kylo Ren is incredibly inept at the least in many ways. Giving every advantage to Finn that has been talked about and every disadvantage to Ren it still comes off as next to unbelievable.

Now if Kylo Ren had been calm and cool and playing with Finn it'd be more credible but he's angered and hurt and should want to just finish this guy but he is also at the same time supposed to be playing with him?

I accept it happened but few things in SW have I ever had to really try to work out as much as this to justify it in my own mind.

If Kylo wants to finish what Vader started then he should first figure out how to take out someone Vader would in 2 seconds or less.

It's an almost total non-event. In ROTJ it's a trap so while the characters want to destroy it like the first one the story is not centred on that. It means nothing to Rey so it really means nothing and it's treated as a joke in the briefing scene and Phasma's betrayal. So if the film-makers treat it as nothing then why would we who watch it?

I understand that it's difficult to get worked up about yet another Death Star but Rogue One showed you can if you connect the personal story in.

 

What does she have to learn? IMO, Rey can afford to be overconfident considering the fact that she learns everything after trying one or two times.


As for Rey's nickname. I'll just leave these links here

Mod Edit: No you won't.

 

- They had to balance build up with keeping some mystery (especially Rey´s background), Rey and Kylo had already two confrontations before the duel.
- We should´t forget that the FO destroyed several planets and Kylo himself slaughtered a village, even without any personal story this is enough to support Rey to stop Kylo.

The Problem here is that Kylo is a Skywalker, not some minor character, its not unlikely that his defeat was needed for the plot of the next episode(s).

I felt that Jyn´s arc could have been better with the material they had, from the cut scenes/trailer it looks like she was originally intended to be much more unwilling and selfish, now her struggle begins and ends after visiting the rebel base the first time, in the holy city she unselfishly rescues the child and after watching her fathers hologram her character is pretty much sett. She is still a good character and to make this clear I defiantly like her and RO, I have no interest in trashing one film to support the other.

I agree that this episode was alrgel about establishing her in the Univers and connecting her with the other heroes and villains. What spiced it up was her trying to survive, from the opening shot in the destroyed Jakku Star Destroyer during her travel and in Starkiller Base (how her climbing scene in Starkiller Base mimics her first scene is some nice movie language to show that not so much has changed for her yet). I kinda disagree that Rey does´t break a sweat, she succeeds often during the movie but she struggles with most things she does.

We got the 'Goodby Jakku' scene with Maz disillusioning her about her parents.[/quote][/quote]

 

Why aren't there new ships??? The Prequels gave us the Arc-170, the Jedi starfighters, Tri-fighters, Vulture droids, Naboo ships, Geonosian ships, Republic gunships, Droid Gunships, V-wings (I think), 2 republic Star Destroyers, And 2 separatist starships. The Originals gave us X-Wings, Y-wings, B-wings, A-wings, Tie-Fighters, Tie bombers, Tie interceptors, the Tie advanced, Imperial shuttles, the Millennium Falcon, the Slave 1, Imperial Star Destroyers, and at least 3 rebel Starfighters. What do the Sequels give us so far? A bew Star destroyer and shuttle, and that's IT. Granted the X-wings and Tie-Fighters look slightly new, but the slight change of wings and paint doesn't justify them being the ONLY starfighters to be featured in the movie. It has been 30 YEARS since ROTJ. Don't you think they should have done more than just give the already existing ships a fresh coat of paint and call it new. We saw the X-wing evole from the ARC-170, and the jedi starfighter phase 2 evolve into Tie-fighters. We need new, not recycled! Who here agrees?