ST The Official "List Your Complaints About TFA" Discussion Thread

Exactly. Just wait for a terrible film. Simple.

In the meantime, satirize other elements of Star Wars fandom. The commercial aspects, the convention-going, etc. Keep it there. The new stuff poking fun at the Collider-style news show is a better direction. Stick to that, and stop trying to force extreme criticism of films that are...well...really good!

 

I liked The Force Awakens much better than The Phantom Menace.

Yep, I said it. And believe me, Jar-Jar's among the least of my problems with The Phantom Menace. Anakin had rather questionable lines and direction, and the Trade Federation villains felt like strawman characters designed to be as intentionally irredeemable as possible just so you could root against them whether or not there was a good reason to. For God's sakes, they invaded a harmless planet! That's enough to root against them!

But anyway, I just kind of felt that The Force Awakens was trying a bit too hard to prove it was not like one of the prequels, rushed through things because it actually deleted some critically explanotory scenes and tried to keep mysteries mysteries by just plain withholding information. Rey does have flaws, like how she pathologically reacts to just about...everything. But that's not the issue, all good characters start out flawed, but the issue is that the movie seems to treat them more like intrinsic parts of her character, save for her obsession with finding her parents, whereas Finn has plenty of flaws, the movie treats every single one them as such, and he overcomes them.

And that's really all I have against it. The script's lines were mature enough and sometimes even whitty, Finn was a great character who underwent great development, BB-8 was hard not to like, Kylo Ren honestly made a bit more sense than Darth Caedus, the villains don't have to be irredeemable in every conceievable way to show you they are villains, the soundtrack was great, the special effects were good, it was just a decent movie in general. It was a bit easier for Rey than it was for Luke, true, and it was a bit more similar to A New Hope than The Phantom Menace and Revenge of the Sith already were, and that's saying something, but those remarks have been done to death, so I won't bother.

 

Watching TFA after Bloodline etc was very different to me. When the characters said
"The General's been after this [Luke's map] for a long time"
"You've been running away from this fight for too long. Han. Go home."
"I've been waiting for this day for a long time"
"Ever since Luke disappeared, people have been looking for him.[...] A lot of rumors. Stories. [about what happened to Luke]"

made me think everything happened around 10 years ago (or when Rey was left on Jakku), but now we know it's not true.

 

I'm not so sure. Military evolvement will always occur as even if not on a military scale, the evolution of weapons will occur for crime and law enforcement. The evolution of vehicles will impact on military ones and the need for border protection against the potential threat of the unknown means even if you downsize your army, you still have one (unless we are talking the Simpsons and look what happened there with Kang when guns weren't invented). Having 30 year old tech is completely inorganic for me, you would update with the latest gizmos. TFA feels like time froze for 30 years.

 

Yes I tend to agree and I think that actually a lot of the reason why dislike of the prequels became such a big cultural movement during the last decade or so is that they represent films where quite basic analysis can pick out flaws. They do IMHO make some pretty fundamental errors you don't see very often with high end blockbusters BUT the big leap that RLM and similar critics tended to make was that simply identifying some basic flaws gave you the formula to create great SW. I'd say that's incorrect both in terms of their analysis of the prequels missing out a lot of more indepth problems but also in some areas trying to throw the baby out with the bathwater, such as the idea that the films were "too original".

Really though I think you can see a clear difference between there TFA and RO reactions, the former was ultimately positive for the most part and had to skirt into some less significant points to try and keep their cynical edge. The RO reaction though the knives really came out and I think a big part of that was that this was a film that DIDNT follow the blueprint they'd talked up for SW nearly as closely as TFA did yet was still getting warmly received by many.

 

I think that is essentially it.

I would add though that it now also covers, and perhaps is dominated by perceived "flaws" which are most often determined by subjective criteria and interpretation. And these have skewed what is considered will make a SW film a good film, never mind a good SW film. For some, that is.

I believe most people/fans are still reasonable and generous towards all SW films, to varying degrees. It's when comparisons are drawn which factor in the different generations that SW films have been made for and by etc, that things get messy.

 

Again I don't think its that they were entirely wrong with many of the prequel flaws they picked out but its a big jump from that to believing that your analysis is all that's needed for quality cinema. Honestly I tend to find this whole brand of criticism is very much inline with modern blockbusters that have increasingly become "competent" rather than "inspired" pieces of entertainment sticking close to relatively basic formulas. Personally give me creative directors taking risks, falling sometimes but producing something truly memorable at others, I don't think for example Marvel has produced a single film that will stand the test of time anything like say the OT or LOTR and I see no signs pointing towards it doing so in the future.

 

I agree with this, except for Guardians of the Galaxy. While that film did mostly follow the same formulas, in my opinion, it did it to a much higher quality than the other films. I think part of that comes down to it was a less established IP so they had a bit more flexibility.

 

Yeah I'd agree its definitely the best of the films they've come up with(one of the few I own on DVD) due to as you say being a bit freer creatively although I'm not really seeing it as something that will have a big fanbase 20 years from now. Its really the Marvel formula working at close to 100% for me yet I think the end result is still a fun but not "great" piece of cinema.

To me TFA is much more of a formula film than RO is and I think that's reflected in RLM and similar reviewers liking the former a lot more than the latter.

Even more obvious for me is the Chris Stuckman review, he raved about TFA following IMHO pretty simple character archetypes yet disliked RO looking for any kind of more subtle characterisation. Dispite saying he's a big SW fan I honestly think if he was reviewing ESB today he wouldn't give it much of a positive response because it doesn't go down the road of predictable archetypes.

 

If TFA is a formula film then there's a formula for making over a $1bn and receiving overwhelming critical paise on display right there, if anyone's interested.

 

^ We can also go back in time to revisit Avatar's success and compare the formulas while we're at it.

 

The first step is be a Star Wars film.

 

TFA's success was of course highly dependant on being the first entry in the most popular franchise ever for a decade, not exactly easy to replicate. Having said that Abrams Trek formula does obviously depend on exploiting such situations and I think this is obviously the reason he was hired by Disney.

Avatar I'm somewhat inbetween on, in terms of plot its obviously very formulaic but you are also looking at a totally original property and I think a high degree of skill on display from Cameron when it comes to building atmospheric locations and directing action.

 

Star Wars was originally a story about the individual's ability to rebel against and overcome institutionally pervasive evil, through moral and religious powers that made him better than he could be physically on his own, and banding together with friends and loved ones who shared a common struggle. My biggest complaint about the new Star Wars films is the same complaint that can be said of the prequels...they are not true to the original heart and soul of the original trilogy.

Part of that is marketing to global audiences (China) where it is politically unacceptable to tell a story of rebellion against The State. Part of that has become ingrained in our own Western cultures, where we have been goaded into handing over our own individual sovereignty and privacy to social media and advertising companies and surveillance in the name of public safety. These are all anathema to the Star Wars universe that I knew and loved for decades.

The current films and their lack of originality and authenticity are a very poor reflection of where we are as a society at this point in time.

 

George Lucas's nostalgia for larger than life serial adventures and his idea to the use it as an antidote and a distraction from the feeling of hopelessness following VietnamWatergate prompted him to try and buy and produce a Flash Gordon movie before settling for creating his own homage to those serials which was highly derivative (by his own admission) of those and other mythologies.

Didn't stop him from making very entertaining and enduring movies though. And society got better after that, I imagine.

 

Really though even with ANH I think the films success depends on combining the "Flash Gordon" influence with the issues raised above the same way for example LOTR took normally lighter fantasy elements and injected them with more weight. We are dealing with a heroes story but I don't think the hero is entirely typical nor indeed are the antagonists he's fighting against. Luke's success isn't really built on mere competence its built on him starting to undertake a spiritual journey(as an alternative to a careerist journey) and the Empire isn't just your typical Ming style moustache twirling villain, theres a gravity to its threat and rather than just being a cartoon evil its this relentless corrupted establishment force that could just as well stand in for the US establishment as it could some relatively disconnected "other" like Nazi Germany.

I do think TFA pretty much loses these aspects entirely, theres much less active choice from Rey to follow the force and the First Order become much safer cartoon Nazi's that are much less directly relatable to the establishment in viewers own countries. Rogue One is I think more successful though, it perhaps doesn't play up the spiritual aspect but the characters are making a contious choice to stand up to the Empire which both has a lot more weight and applicability to modern situations behind it.

 

I feel confused how Kylo Ren is showed in TFA after the informations we get in the novels

spoiler of Empire's End

Spoiler

Apparently Snoke was watching Ben since before his born, it's weird that they didn't make us feel sympathy for Kylo. Now I'm confused, and Leia's comments in Bloodline make me think Ben was a good boy

 

Yes, there was the right balance between fantasy and weight. It was escapism but still told a story weighted in the real world. The new movies don't have the right balance. They are much more like the modern comic book movies, skewed entirely too far to the fantasy / not-serious side.

 

Er, did you watch Rogue One?

 

Yeah, that's why I said "the new movies". That includes Rogue One.

 

I think your wrong in that regard then as Rogue One does for me clearly have the gravity of setting that TFA and the PT lacked.

 

they didn't lack gravity.

 

I try to avoid thinking about this kind of thing, but after Rogue One, I can't help but wonder if "The Force Awakens" could have been the movie with the black deathtroopers, the TIE Striker, or if all the new stormtroopers were silver like Captain Phasma.
-Arrival at Maz's castle seems aimless.
-Han Solo's death. Unnecessary.
-The last shot being stretched out.
-Finn's lightsaber duel with the stormtrooper. Just leave him using it for the duel at the end. I never felt comfortable with staffs being capable of blocking lightsabers like on Grievious' ship in Revenge of the Sith.
-Captain Phasma being found easily, and then complying.
-Starkiller Base's laser, and everything about it.
-A lack of this really feeling like the future after the Original Trilogy.
-This trilogy not being made twenty or so years ago.

 

I thought you were criticizing TFA for not having black and white good and bad characters like from a fairy story but now you're saying it's skewed too far towards fantasy/not serious.

It's a fantasy to propose that villainous characters are not or should not be complex characters or relatable characters who err into villainy. It is not a good idea to apply your conception of evil and villainy from fairy stories to the real world.

 

The prequels perhaps had a bit more gravity than TFA, certainly Mcdiarmid and Lee gave performances with a lot of gravitas but ultimately I didn't think the setting had the same seriousness as the OT, a lot of detail certainly but not the same believability or dramatic weight put on it.