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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST The Official "List Your Complaints About TFA" Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by BretHart, Dec 17, 2015.

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  1. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    moreorless12

    Firstly. I haven't attacked you personally in any way.

    That's quite a broad presumption on which to take issue with the film. And it's also a straw man.

    There is no desire to downplay a highly acclaimed trilogy. But even the most faithful fan of any of the two trilogies must realise how unfair it is to begin to judge one new film on impressions formed about three or six films over decades.

    Just taking a one on one film comparison, nearly all of the issues brought up are common. And like all comparisons between individual movies in the saga, they throw up similarities, but of things done a little differently before. The OT continually evolved in style.

    I think the assumption that TFA should be judged as an attempt to do certain things directly comparable with the "standard" of the same things when done before in whole other trilogy is false and is as inapplicable between TFA and a whole trilogy as it is any two Star Wars movies.


    I think "standard" is the inappropriate word considering the variety of styles, particularly in the OT, that have enriched the saga. And I say that in the knowledge of my own personal preferences and the value I personally place on them. I don't think it is necessary or even valuable though to impose the supposed propriety of my preferences. But most of all, I think it is futile to broadly proscribe things that are not Star Wars on those terms.

    If I was consuming a homogeneous brand that guaranteed a consistent standard of flavour, distinct from other brands, then I might have cause to complain about a perceived shortfall in meeting those expected standards. I'm glad to say that I don't see Star Wars that way.

    I must say also, that these type of discussions always progress this way

    - "That's not Star Wars. They never had that in Star Wars"
    - "Yes they had. Arguably more so."
    - "But Star Wars did it right. To Star Wars standard. TFA didn't."
     
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  2. King Prana

    King Prana Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 19, 2017
    General Hux was probably my biggest complaint.

    He just seemed a little over the top - notably during the speech scene on SKB.

    I would have liked a table of generals, a bit like what we seen in ANH. TFA led me to believe that one young General was leading the entire First Order.

    Kylo seemed more of a lone figure.
     
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  3. moreorless12

    moreorless12 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 4, 2016
    TFA is of course held to high standards because of its connection to the legacy of the OT which were highly acclaimed films, I think you just need to accept this. Added to this I would say the makers of the film have claimed that it represents a continuation of the OT's style as have many fans.

    Again I wouldn't say that these are issues only connected to SW, just that TFA being a followup to the OT is more obviously compared to it. You look at say Jacksons Lord of the Rings and I think theres also clearly a sense of gravity to the setting/characters, the same with Nolan's Batman.

    To me TFA generally feels like a film being pulled in a lot of different directions not really achieving excellence in any of them, In terms of being a fun space romp for example I think its clearly behind Guardians of the Galaxy yet as mentioned it also doesn't for me do a very good job of creating a more serious setting.
     
  4. Gigoran Monk

    Gigoran Monk Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Dec 2, 2016
    Agreed. There was a cartoon thinness to the proceedings that was notably less convincing than its equivalent in ANH. I still enjoyed TFA a lot, as a sort of "essence of Star Wars" love letter by Abrams, but that approach unfortunately contributed to a lack of depth to the world.
     
  5. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    The OT films aren't one style so it's a fallacy to impose A particular style on the film that immediately follows it in episode order. Of course there's continuation. That doesn't mean what you think it means which seems to be summing up and exemplifying your impressions of selected aspects from a whole trilogy.

    I think what you mean about standards is the aspects that you've selected and how you interpret and appreciate them.

    I don't think Star Wars needs to or should be emulating Lord Of The Rings or Nolan's Batmans (especially the Batmans). Guardians of The Galaxy was fine. But if a movie was made exactly like TFA that was somehow devoid of any physical link to Start Wars and I had to pick which would be make a good Star Wars movie, I would be picking TFA. Absolutely no question.

    The need for a "more serious setting" has not been justified, for me. Particularly when other, non Star Wars movies, are being held up as examples.
     
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  6. Gigoran Monk

    Gigoran Monk Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Dec 2, 2016
    The idea that a "more serious setting" can work really well in the GFFA, however, was validated big time with Rogue One. So while I still want more deliriously fun SW movies, I also want more nuanced SW movies. What's most exiting is a variance in styles, IMO. That will keep this franchise fresh.
     
  7. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Doesn't look like now is the time to complain about a lack of distinctive and differently nuanced Star Wars films being released. We've had two in the space of a year and due another three in the near future. Nuance and seriousness are not the same thing either. I liked RO very much, but I can appreciate why TFA was not made like RO and vice versa. I'm glad that it's the case.
     
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  8. Gigoran Monk

    Gigoran Monk Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Dec 2, 2016
    Who's complaining? I'm thrilled with what we've gotten so far.
     
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  9. Artoo-Dion

    Artoo-Dion Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 9, 2009
    I think ESB actually strikes the best balance when it comes to treating its setting seriously while still giving the audience a fun adventure story. TFA is much more in the style of ANH, which takes itself less seriously all 'round.
     
  10. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    "I have to remind myself sometimes that people take these movies seriously." - George Lucas
     
  11. moreorless12

    moreorless12 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 4, 2016
    Yeah I would agree ESB deals with this balance most successfully although I don't think ANH takes itself THAT much less seriously. You have a little more in the way of over the top action on the Death Star and rather more of R2 and 3PO but the actually setting for me is really not that different and considerably more grounded than TFA as are much of the cast of characters for me.

    I think those elements really do bind the OT films together even with some shifts in filmmaking style at different points in the trilogy.
     
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  12. ewoksimon

    ewoksimon Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 26, 2009
    The Jakku chase is a ton of fun, a worthy child of the asteroid chase and podrace, and also a vital juncture in investing the audience in Finn and Rey by entrusting them with taking command of the saga's most iconic vessel.

    However.

    This specific shot is total mud, and one of the worst conceived and executed shots in any SW action scene. For context, it comes immediately after Finn shoots down the first TIE fighter.

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    I couldn't disagree more. I love that shot.
     
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  14. La Calavera

    La Calavera Force Ghost star 4

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    Sep 2, 2015
    Though TESB also had borderline cartoonish moments. Vader was this close of becoming a cartoon villain, whereas he was more nuanced and slightly more realistic in ANH.
    I would say in general, both had a good balance between goofy and serious in their own ways, it’s just that TESB looked darker and had an overall more adult-oriented ending.
    TFA was way more in style of ROTJ. Leaning more heavily on the goofy that is.
     
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  15. ewoksimon

    ewoksimon Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 26, 2009
    The compression of space in the image is specifically what bothers me, as well as the out of focus objects in the foreground. Given that the sequence was largely achieved via CGI, the conception of this shot baffles me. There's also a similarly positioned frontal shot earlier in the sequence that communicates the same visual idea far better.

    [​IMG]
     
  16. TCF-1138

    TCF-1138 Anthology/Fan Films/NSA Mod & Ewok Enthusiast star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2002
    Those shots do look a bit different from what we're used to seeing due to the long lenses used, but I don't mind them at all. I'm all for finding new, creative ways of shooting starships.
     
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  17. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 3, 2014

    The thing about that as a complaint is that it's difficult to see that as a visceral reaction to a film that sticks out as something badly done, it looks much more like something that has been taken issue with after multiple viewings and freeze frames to make absolutely sure you dont like it. Not saying that that's what you've done here, just that there's nothing inherent about the shot that fails in conveying that there is a chase happening, and it doesnt look unrealistic.
     
  18. ewoksimon

    ewoksimon Chosen One star 5

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    Oct 26, 2009
    Oh it's absolutely a nitpick for sure, and it came from just rewatching the scene in isolation multiple times and going through it in slow motion. I like watching how the action scenes in SW are cut together, and how each shot communicates with the next. This one simply sticks out like a sore thumb to me in that context.
     
  19. moreorless12

    moreorless12 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 4, 2016
    No long lens is actually used of course just a virtual one but the idea from Abrams is to try and compress the distance to make the Tie's and various obstacles feel as close to the Falcon as possible.

    I do think its a good point in terms of how FX scenes were constructed. In the OT you generally tended to get movement in the frame, even if the camera was tracking the action somewhat it wouldn't track is exactly most of the time in a 3rd person videogame style which Abrams tends to do a lot of the time.

    Personally I prefer the OT style FX camerawork, I think there's a more stately grace to it giving more of a sense of the wider setting.
     
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  20. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Different focal lengths have different characteristics.

    The shot in question emulates the French Connection/Die Hard With A Vengeance way of stacking up foreground and background to enhance the peril of flying through the debris. It also has that "caught on camera" spontaneity that McT's third Die Hard sort of introduced to action. Look at some of the shots in the car chase in Bullit too.

    Ordinarily, with models and opticals, the shot would take on the more god-like POV. Roughly 50mm and universal focus, like the other shot provided . CGI has mainly emulated that style but it's not prerequisite.

    Personally, this shot reminds me of skimming my Falcon close to the carpet with my head at floor level, "filming" it.
     
  21. Prequel_Rubbish

    Prequel_Rubbish Jedi Knight star 3

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    Dec 5, 2014
    The Jakku chase was the best part of the movie. Tons of fun and smartly executed. The scenes and establishing shots with Rey on Jakku were well paced and enjoyable to watch. Everything else in the movie except maybe the flashback was mediocre or really bad.

    Yes, I agree with this.

    But not this.

    Yes, stylistically TFA is much more like the least serious parts of Return of the Jedi and nothing close to Star Wars or Empire Strikes Back in my opinion. Silly is an apt description.
     
  22. Tanjint

    Tanjint Jedi Knight star 2

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    Dec 21, 2015
    I know this complaint has been brought up before but I have a certain angle on it that I feel like articulating.... given how much emphasis the problems of the old Jedi order are given in both the Clone Wars CG series and the prequel movies, so much of what Star Wars, at least the main saga, ultimately means is wrapped up in what Luke's new Jedi Order would/will be.

    It bothers me that we get close to nothing in terms of answers to that line of inquiry in The Force Awakens. Do Luke's new Jedi marry and have attachments? Do they have Padawan locks?

    That said, there's a part of me that thinks it's super clever that they made a whole Episode (7) that advances the story (arguably, potentially, hopefully) while managing to not answer most questions one would have about the nature of Luke's post-ROTJ (attempt at a) Jedi Order.

    Re-reading Star Wars Legacy these days and when I am finished with this re-read will probably start a thread in the Saga-In-Depth forum about what we're supposed to take as the main message of the Fall and Resurrections of the Jedi order in Legends, Canon, and beyond....

    But yeah...truly hoping TLJ isn't so evasive about these issues.

    -T
     
  23. B99

    B99 Force Ghost star 6

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    Nov 10, 2014
    Honestly, I never found BB-8's torch thumbs up funny..[face_dunno]
     
  24. Prequel_Rubbish

    Prequel_Rubbish Jedi Knight star 3

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    Dec 5, 2014
    I didn't think it was laugh out loud funny, but it was ok and humorous in a way.
     
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  25. Jedi Jessy

    Jedi Jessy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2016

    I noticed that some people laughed thinking he was showing his "middle finger" to Finn. Others thought it was an ok
     
    B99 likes this.
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