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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST The Official "List Your Complaints About TFA" Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by BretHart, Dec 17, 2015.

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  1. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    We only really begin to find out about Luke (as he does himself) once Obi Wan starts spilling the beans. From then on, old Ben narrates Luke's induction into the ways of the force and his family heritage.

    The same has not been done for Rey because she does not yet have that kind of mentor. Instead she has Han who tries to do the same, in his own way, but also, in spite of himself. There are definitely allusions to Han (and Leia too) knowing more about Rey than the lets on. This is also consistent with Ben turning out to be an unreliable narrator (from a certain point of view). Revelations ater episodes really put what we learn about Luke in ANH into perspective

    I believe the point of deferring the introduction to a force mentor/ narrator character is that Rey doesn't just blithely follow anyone who impresses her. She maintains a curious duty to remain on Jakuu for her parents (who apparently abandoned her, unlike Luke's dead parents). That's enough to know for now. What we do know is prone to being redefined in the next episodes anyway. As it was with Luke..

    The movie ends with her assuming the role of emissary or pilgrim following her compelling but unheralded collision with the force. She doesn't know what she's supposed to do, but she can no longer ignore the greater destiny that appears to be placed in front of her. The only crucial difference that I can see between her and Luke at this stage is that Luke had assumed some kind of birthright to become a Jedi, like his father. But that would be very quickly undermined anyway.
     
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  2. DARTH_BELO

    DARTH_BELO Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 25, 2003
    I'll warrant that there is a certain appeal to the unknown when it comes to Rey. But for the rest of the story-plot, motivations of the First Order, Snoke, state of the galaxy, I would've loved to learn more about those in TFA. And I feel such things as those were actually covered in ANH and TPM. Like I mentioned, I'd also like to have found out at least some of that without having to also read thru the books, you know? Even just a few lines of dialogue-a scene or two-could've gone a long way to accomplishing some of that. The search for Skywalker could've been a part of the plot-like a separate thread, but IMO it didn't have to be the single plot thread over the entire film. That's all I'm really saying.

    At the very least, I feel it would've been reasonable to have learned more about Kylo Ren and maybe just a bit about why he turned and how it all went down. Han and Leia kind of begin to touch on that on D'qar, but then they're unfortunately interrupted.

    Based on some of the things you mentioned Martoto77, I agree that with certain characters there is some appeal to the unknown-and if TLJ and Episode IX would elaborate it might help me see TFA in a different light. It's definitely true that some things just look better when taken as part of a whole.
     
  3. JoshieHewls

    JoshieHewls Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 16, 2013
    I never thought I'd post here, because I really like TFA. Like, really like it. It's a good time. But there is one thing that bugs me about the film, especially in light of Rogue One:

    The lack of world building. JJ Abrams wanted to take a simpler approach and not necessarily go the route of the alien designs of the PT, I get it. But he was off the mark in even matching the OT's simplistic planet designs. Tatooine is more than just a desert planet. It's a desert planet with quirky aliens, sand people, several spaceports. Yavin IV has these amazing temples that we know nothing about but we get a feeling that there's a whole story behind them. Hoth is a snow covered wasteland, but it has Ice Monsters. Dagobah is a VERY alien planet, with a lot of overgrowth and strange creatures flying around.

    There's none of that in Abrams' simple designs, aside from Jakku (thanks to the fields of fallen Star Destroyers/TIE Fighters and X-wings). Takodana is a jungle with a lake and a neat castle. D-Qar is also a jungle with a landing pad for the Resistance base. That is it. There's no interesting fauna, there's no interesting set design in there to make us wonder what else is going on on that planet.

    I feel like it's just an aspect of Star Wars that Abrams didn't get. He got the fun factor. He got the characters. He got the story. But he didn't make me wonder what the hell else was going on on D'Qar or Takodana. And that's a shame.
     
  4. DARTH_BELO

    DARTH_BELO Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 25, 2003
    That is true. I didn't really take issue with that aspect to that extent, cos I did enjoy what I saw, but I definitely get your point JoshieHewls. Especially with Takodana and D'Qar, at first their similarities in terrain made me think they were on the same planet (I was more clear on it after the 2nd viewing though). It did also kind of feel as if Maz's castle was the only thing on that planet, and the Resistance base was the only thing in the Ilinium (sp.?) system. Although THAT would make sense since they have experience with choosing remote planets to put their bases on.

    Again, not really a major issue I had, but IMO-valid points all the same.
     
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  5. moreorless12

    moreorless12 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 4, 2016
    Indeed, you could argue that ESB takes Luke's story in a different direction but I think a lot of the reason that shift works is exactly because we already had a good handle on Luke after ANH. That's what gave "I Am Your Father" a lot of its power, Rey could be anyones child or go in pretty much any direction and I don't think it would be as effective because we don't really know her very well.

    Generally I would say that "fun" and visuals that looked reasonably close are the only aspects that ABrams got "right", character, plot, world building, etc were all sacrificed to maximise the fun/nostalgia/humour just as they were in his Trek films.
     
  6. LordDallos

    LordDallos Jedi Master star 3

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    Feb 2, 2016
    I think my biggest gripe with TFA is that it's built around watching it for the first time. "Oh look the Millennium Falcon! Oh, wow Han and Chewie! Ooooooh, Vader's Helmet! OMG! Anakin's lightsaber. R2! LUKE!"

    All those reveals that the movie is so heavily built around are severely diminished when you know they are coming. Kind of hurts the film's rewatchability.
     
  7. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 3, 2016
    A friend of mine actually made a really good point when he said that it felt more like an amusement park ride than a movie.
     
  8. Microsoft Edgy

    Microsoft Edgy Jedi Youngling

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    Mar 19, 2017
    • The Stormtrooper that tries to kill Finn basically threw the gun that WAS IN HIS HAND just to have a melee battle with him.
    • Luke says absolutely nothing but stands there the whole time.
    • The sequence of events in TFA is literally almost identical to the sequence of events in ANH.
     
  9. 11-4D

    11-4D Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 6, 2015
    Totally agree with that. Feels like the actual story hasn't really even started yet. TFA feels like just a wheelspinning movie distracting us with things that won't even matter in the end, like Starkiller Base, or even the rathtars. How about explaining Rey's past, why Kylo turned, and what the deal with Snoke is and what his plans are. Presenting the hurdles they have to overcome in the trilogy and setting up what's to come.
     
  10. DARTH_BELO

    DARTH_BELO Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 25, 2003
    Indeed. 11-4D. And I think I mentioned this before (too lazy to look back), but TLJ and Episode IX will have some major ground to cover, in terms of plot and backstory as a result of that. IMO that's a lot to pack into just two films!

    Ultimately IMO TFA was a great adventure film, and entertaining in the way of getting people back in the "SW mood," but I don't really feel it stands well on its own in any way in terms of story or stage setting for the trilogy-something that TPM and ANH did very well.
     
  11. moreorless12

    moreorless12 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 4, 2016
    Abrams is probably a more extreme example of this style but generally I think its been on the rise in recent years, blockbusters created for maximum first viewing impact rather than films with depth revealed over multiple viewings..

    I spose its partly the product of peoples viewing habits, with something like the OT(heck even the LOTR films) you were talking about films that were at the cinema for months and ticket prices that were low enough for a lot of people to view them many times so it paid to make films that rewarded repeated viewings. As the price of cinema tickets has inflated massively and films aren't at the cinema nearly as long though the amount of people rewatching blockbusters has diminished.

    A critical culture seems to have developed with a lot of viewers as well were nothing more than relatively straightforward entertainment is desired from blockbusters. The whole culture of RLM style reviewers to me seems to be geared to playing to this mindset.
     
  12. Nipuhanipera

    Nipuhanipera Force Ghost star 5

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    May 25, 2014
  13. Jedi Jessy

    Jedi Jessy Force Ghost star 5

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    Feb 28, 2016

    Even the characters did it (how many times we hear "HAAAN SOLOOOO" "OH, IT'S HAN SOLO!"?)
     
  14. EzraSnoke

    EzraSnoke Jedi Knight star 2

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    Jan 25, 2017
    Too much ANH. Not a new adventure/story. There was a Death Star, a loner teen, all the same beats. So it just didn't add anything to all the struggles and outcome of the OT. All that human struggle and Luke Skywalker invalidated by recreating Luke as Rey. Not advancing the OT era forward at all. Galaxy in a deja vu, or matrix glitch.

    That's why many people were disenchanted about TFA, because after all those years after ROTJ, there was no development. It was a literal reboot, when it was the last thing SW needed or should've tried to do. Was a waste of a movie, an "episode". SW never needs to be re-booted because parents are always putting their kids thru the SW experience, sitting them down with the DVDs, passing on the legacy to the kids, who pass it on themselves.

    It was ok to create a Snoke, a Rey and a Ben Solo....that concept of the offspring of the Skywalkers and Kenobi....caught up in old wounds, old battles. But Abrams should never have set all that in the same ANH plot. The concept of the story/characters was ok. But the delivery of that story was bad.

    Rey didn't have to be a Luke clone. Kylo's backstory was fine. Snoke's mystery is ok. It's mainly just the whole Rey angle. And the whole Death Star thing over again.

    TFA ends up feeling like an everyday sci-fi movie with a SW facade painted on it. Even tho it had all the OT characters in it! That's how badly it came off, that even despite them being in there, and integral to the story, it was like watching a re-run or a bad remake.

    It was a space opera; similar beats to ANH. Loner teen protagonist gets caught up in a grand conspiracy, joins up with some old legendary figure and a runaway baddie, they get involved in an adventure together, getting shot at and chased across the galaxy, they come across space pirates and weird space monsters, more running and chasing, they go thru drama/tragedy as the old legend dies and civilian planets get destroyed, caught up in a battle, the heroine finds a mythical sword that calls to her and opens her up to a mystical world of force powers, she gets incarcerated, escapes, has a life and death duel at the end with the arch-enemy, she wins, and flees to safety, and ultimately a rendezvous with THE single greatest mystical legend/warrior there is, and the movie ends with this journey toward a new life about to begin.

    But it came off bland, empty, hackneyed. Nothing new was added. The aftermath of the ROTJ invalidated. It just didnt feel awe-inspiring, new, wondrous. And even tho there was adventure, wisecracks, danger, etc going on, it still all lacked emotion, spunk, genuine humor and adventure. One wasn't invested in the characters and their plight, taken out of the cinema chair and transported into that world --- like ANH did, because it was original, new, and written better too.

    I've watched the movie a few times now, and each time still feels like the first viewing, where I wasn't really laughing along, wasn't on the edge of my seat, wasn't wondering what might happen, caught up emotionally with either the new characters or this forwarded era of the post-ROTJ galactic political backdrop etc.
     
  15. 11-4D

    11-4D Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 6, 2015
    I loved how this was a chase movie but they should have gone full out with it. Some minor changes could have made the movie into a race to get to Luke which would have been a lot of fun.

    It didn't really make sense to me why they even went to Maz's castle other than to advance the plot, so I'd have one of the Kanjiklub dudes steal BB-8 on Han's freighter and they follow him to Takodana.

    Then removing Starkiller base completely and have the final act be set where Luke is supposed to be and multiple factions are all there to get to him first. The Resistance, First Order, Kanjiklub, Bounty hunters etc. Turns out Luke isn't there though and it's just the final part of the map.

    Turned into a small rant of my dream TFA but oh well
     
  16. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 3, 2016
    Would have fleshed out the setting quite a bit without much exposition either and would have introduced new, interesting factions into the fold. Nice.

    It really did get bogged down in the third act though, I agree.
     
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  17. moreorless12

    moreorless12 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 4, 2016
    I think its worse than Rey being a Luke clone, rather Rey was a wafer thin character who depended on some reflected attachment to Luke in order to give her story weight(Rey using the force for example is dramatic because it was dramatic for Luke) with the viewer and otherwise just acted as a window in for the viewer on a SW nostalgia ride.

    I think Disney hired a maker of competent pieces of entertainment knowing that demand for SW and the general critical climate meant this was a low risk option and unsurprisingly he provided a piece of competent but rather insubstantial entertainment.

    There were some ideas within the film that could have been used more effectively but I think Abrams was never likely to deliver more than what he did. What I think we've yet to see is how damaging this is to future films letting him near SW really was.
     
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  18. darthgator1217

    darthgator1217 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Apr 25, 2005
    I think the issue for me is that out of all of the Star Wars movies the force awakens just doesn't get better with each viewing. In fact, it just gets worse. As a pure piece of entertainment, the force awakens is fine, but there are just certain problems that I cannot ignore.

    For me, as the movie progresses it gets increasingly derivative of the original trilogy.

    I think Abrams exceeds at getting great performances from his actors. That is easily the strongest part of the movie.

    The world building however is lousy.look at what was accomplished with rogue one by comparison. Edwards really added to the world building of the Star Wars universe.

    One of my biggest problems with the force awakens though is Rey herself. When she was able to use the force with apparently little to no training it just knocked me out of the story. I mean what's the point of episode eight? Does she really need Luke's training and advice? She has already defeated Kylo Ren. Think back to the original trilogy, imagine if Luke Skywalker defeated Darth Vader in EP4. It would make the confrontation in episode five fairly trivial. For me it helps to see your character have to struggle to succeed. she is exceedingly competent in everything with little to no explanation as to how she is so competent.

    Disney made a ton of cash with the force awakens. They did this by copying the original trilogy pure and simple. I fear the next movie will also be a rehash. I am guessing that episode 8 will be a competent rehash of episode five with a few new things added here and there. I mean why mess with success? I hope I am wrong.



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  19. Alien Vanguard

    Alien Vanguard Jedi Master star 3

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    Jan 1, 2015
    I agree that it doesn't really get better with each viewing, however, the good parts don't get worse either.

    I'm trying to imagine how it would be like to watch ANH now for the first time. It does have its flaws (blasphemy! i know), but nostalgia doesn't care about those. Every time the Tantive IV flies past the screen, my childhood kicks inn and I'm immediately immune to the movies' weak spots. That's obviously not the case with TFA, but I have to remind myself how i reacted after the first viewing at the cinema: a BIG sigh of relief. I mean really, JJ did a good job in reassuring fans that Star Wars is indeed back and ready to rock. This was due to strong characters, beautiful visuals and good/decent dialogue. All this without a "cheeziness"-factor. Summed up: JJ succeeded in rebooting the franchise, even though it may have cost TFA a couple extra stars.

    That said, the few gripes i have, really are big thorns in TFA's side as opposed to just mere nuisances.

    - Starkiller base. More specifically: the whole concept of it as well as the Resistance war room/battle, which was pretty forgettable.

    - Snoke. THE bad guy of this trilogy (as far as we know), and yet so generic. He didn't do squat for me in any aspect. Both the voice and the CGI are sub-par for this day and age. Really, JJ/KK/Disney/whoever else deserves a big smack on the cheek for this. Depending on how the next two movies handle him, i might be swayed, but i feel the damage is done.

    I also would've liked to get just a little more info on the relationship between the New Republic and the Resistance. I was left completely in the dark. I forget exactly what the opening crawl included, but it wasn't nearly enough in my opinion.
     
  20. moreorless12

    moreorless12 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 4, 2016
    Honestly though I think a lot of the RLM/Stuckman style analysis of ANH has done the film a disservice basically looking to paint it as a very by the numbers thrill ride to suit there simplistic analysis. Granted it is obviously effective in this respect but whats generally ignored is both the seriousness of the world building and the relatively down to earth style to the scripting/acting, its I think a film that still very much has one foot in the new wave of the late 60's and early 70's.

    What I think TFA really ended up being was SW repacked into a modern cartoonish blockbuster formula with a healthy dose of nostalgia, the reality is this is all a lot of audiences actually wanted and indeed what a lot of commentators had been telling us for years is all we should hope for.

    I don't think Abrams really had much respect for the OT beyond viewing it as effective fodder to feed into this style the same way he did Trek.
     
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  21. Jonipoon

    Jonipoon Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 22, 2014
    I've made lots of complaints in the past, but here's a new, rather interesting and extensive one.

    Why do the planets in TFA come off as rather "stupid" and "illogical"?
    The other day, I was imagining what kind of planets we will see in TLJ, and then I naturally started comparing them with what we've seen in previous films. And when looking back at TFA, it suddenly hit my head how stupid and illogical many of those environments are. And no, I'm not talking about how Earth-like they are, but rather about their functionality and how their settings do not fit with their looks. Bear in mind, I am stating these points based on what we have been shown so far, so please do not respond to this with "we haven't seen the whole planet yet".

    The greatest (or worst) example of this is TAKODANA. So, it's supposed to be this classic "wretched hive of scum and villainy", a neutral planet visited by smugglers and bounty hunters. Then why the heck does its landscape look like some kind of paradise, that would be more fitting on a prosperous planet such as Naboo or Alderaan? Its literary PACKED with beautiful lakes and forests (as seen clearly from space) - with so many vast resources, it sounds more like a planet that would naturally have been settled and exploited in a different way. Instead of this kind of landscape, Takodana could've been a huge disgusting swamp instead to make its setting match with its look.

    The next example is JAKKU. Okay, so here's a planet with basically nothing except for deserts and junk yards. Nobody seemed to live there prior to the battle of Jakku, and there are no large settlements like on other desert planets such as Tatooine. The only thing people live for are collecting scrap parts in exchange for food portions. What the heck, were they sent there as slaves or what? Of course they are not slaves, so what on Jakku are keeping these people from not leaving the planet as soon as possible Perhaps they should have taken shelter on Takodana instead, sounds like a good place to start farming and set up some kind of prosperous civilization *ahem*. What happens when they run out of scrap parts? Will they all starve to death? Lol.

    Lastly we have STARKILLER BASE. Do I even need to go on about this one? Many people before me have pointed out how stupid and illogical the functionality of Starkiller Base is. First of all, it's a planet, so how can it move through space? Obviously it can't, so once it has consumed its own star it is basically useless because it can't consume another star in a different system. The other question is: If the planet draws its power from consuming a sun, what's not stopping this power from destroying the entire planet itself? Because science? And additionally, shouldn't this planet be completely empty on resources? Like, why are there still trees? How can it still snow?

    Tell me what you think.
     
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  22. Alien Vanguard

    Alien Vanguard Jedi Master star 3

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    Jan 1, 2015
    Regarding Starkiller base:

    I'm more opposed to it due to the fact that it's basically a larger version of the DS, rather than getting irritated that it contradicts every law within science. Actually, i would've accepted it more if the space battle and surrounding story had been more original. It wasn't. The resistance gather in the war room at their most desperate hour, and ultimately "go to war" following the reassurance of a renegade stormtrooper that "knows" what to do. Fast forward to a familiar trench and an ace pilot flashing his skills. It's Star Wars i know, but the script felt rushed. Was this due to some time constraints after Arndt left? I can't remember the details of that anymore.

    As far as the planets you mention, I'm more in the camp of JoshieHewls' post above. About they simply being locations where scenes play out, and that you're left with no feeling or urge to explore those places further (i hadn't really considered that aspect before he posted, but he has a good point). I don't see why a wretched hive of scum and villainy needs to be located in a swamp. If anything, Takodana serves its purpose as a hideout right in the middle of beautiful scenery. Few would suspects the shady patrons located within the ruins/Maz' castle.
     
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  23. moreorless12

    moreorless12 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 4, 2016
    I think this relates back to his point though as well as more general problems TFA had. The worlds into the OT were "created" to suit the needs of the plot of those films so interaction and exploration of them happened naturally. TFA on the other hand does I think carry over influences from the OT with its worlds so there not designed to suit the plot as obviously and thus factor into the film far less.

    The same is true for so much of what Abrams takes from the OT, basically lifting elements that were originally created to serve a purpose and then having to bend the plot around them rather than the other way around.
     
  24. Alien Vanguard

    Alien Vanguard Jedi Master star 3

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    Jan 1, 2015
    Disney Princesses should've been Star Wars. Don't know how that got mixed.
     
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  25. Alien Vanguard

    Alien Vanguard Jedi Master star 3

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    Jan 1, 2015
    Ah, April 1st. Nice one mods, lol
     
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