ST The Official "List Your Complaints About TFA" Discussion Thread

There is no sense to it except….they didn't fix it.

There are moments like this and then character moments that make me wonder if the writers, JJ and Kasdan, really understood what makes these characters special like Leia ignoring Chewie and hugging Rey instead after HAN dies…seriously, what the hell were they thinking except Rey MUST be the central character in this film so she MUST hug Leia now? Dumb.

 

Except Poe Dameron was reinserted back into the script with plenty of time to make any necessary revisions, he plays too large a role in the post-Takodana story for him to be last minute change, so that's not really the explanation. The real reason why Poe Dameron 'disappears' (and we don't waste time following his story on Jakku) is because it's a far more dramatic moment when he comes in to save the day with the cavalry. The audience goes "'he's alive!". It's really not that hard to join some dots in your brain about what happens to him - what craft ejects just the gunner? Maybe BB8 has already left the planet? How else does someone get off a planet with lots of ships coming and going? It makes perfect sense, but regardless, it's really not something that needs to be fixed. No more than us needing to see what happens to Han when he leaves the Yavin IV base and suddenly appears shooting out of the sun without anyone mentioning his ship has arrived on the scene. Similarly, we don't need to show Cassian waking up and climbing up to the top of the tower to when he shoots Krennic in the back. It's all in service to the moment. I'm sorry you guys are choosing to miss that.

The alternatives put forward aren't really any better, they're just different. Poe taking Finn at gunpoint and some sort of slow anti-brainwashing intellectual discourse taking place that makes Finn see the error of his ways is a completely different story that requires far more nuance than any Star Wars has ever done. It's not thrilling, and it's not full of powerful imagery (other people are firing, will he join in? no, he's not following in the slaughter of innocents). Further, I've noticed that some of the problems with Finn seem born from viewer assumptions which aren't particularly well supported by the film.
1) Finn is supposed to be a personality-void automaton (ie, he has too much personality for someone that was taken as a child and brainwashed into a fascist regime)
2) The First Order operates with the kind of camaderies amongst its soldiers equivalent to our own military (ie, why does Finn kill his friends? that's so bad and inconsistent of him).
It's worth noting right away that these two assumptions are almost mutually exclusive. It seems that some perceived FN-2187 as being like the kids in Paul Anderson's Soldier with Kurt Russell, brutalised and brainwashed, but this isn't supported in the film at all. The only evidence in favour is a boast from Hux about his soldiers being programmed from birth after the desertion and after Kylo has questioned the validity of the entire approach. The moment is supposed to be one of hubris, and isn't just random exposition. They even have reprogramming built into the system, which indicates that it's a continuous process and everyone is monitored. Further, Star Wars has an extensive history of showing that Stormtroopers have personality, Clones in the TV series have wildly different personalities and these guys were bred exclusively for war and were clones of the same morose guy.

I get that it's a breaking of immersion into the world, but it seems more born out of erronenous assumptions first, and a determination to not enjoy the story second.

 

hey Chorus. Poe took off his jacket immediately when he and Finn boarded the tie fighter, while still in the Finalizer hanger.


Pro Scoundrel Up until meeting Han and Chewie, the writers wanted to show these "kids" Rey and Finn, in over their heads. With an "adult" Poe there the whole time, we wouldn't get the same achievement after what the kids had to go through to get off of Jakku.

We also wouldn't get the same "relief" feeling when the kids finally meet someone from the OT, namely the adults Han and Chewie.

Also, technically speaking, Rey is the odd woman out. Since now, Finn, Poe and BB-8 all know each other. You just consider Poe the odd one out, because Rey is the main character.

I would imagine if JJ plans for BB-8 going with Rey hadn't change. We would have gotten a Poe-Rey meet at the end, where Poe agrees to hand BB-8 over to Rey.

As it is. I'm glad Rian changed it. Rey would have looked too overpowered if a guy she just met, handed his droid to her. Talk about a boon count: Poe's droid, the Skywalker lightsaber, Han's blaster, Han's ship the Falcon, Chewie as co-pilot, new clothes from Leia. And on the way to get force training from Luke.

Even more fans would have been upset.

 

TFA is pretty forgettable.

It's all gonna depend on what Rian and Trevorrow can do, Hoth 2.0 and Starkiller 2.0 probably are the safe bets and honestly outside of the Yuzhan Vong or some real off the wall stuff that's where Star Wars is forever stuck.

 

Honestly "forgettable" is really the main issue for me, its a pretty well made action/humour/nostalgia blockbuster but theres really not a great deal to it I find very memorable and honestly the humour has become incredibly grating on rewatches.

That's why I think talking about specifics doesn't really get to the root of the issue, I don't think this could have been turned into quality cinema with a handful of changes

 

Prequels had an original story, but the execution was poor....TFA had no original story, but the execution was good. I think this sums up my likes and dislikes with TFA / Prequels.

Its rather depressing that there will probably never be another Star Wars film that is as good as any of the OT. Its very very depressing actually. Thats why I'm leaning toward Star Trek the more I get older. Star Trek doesn't need to follow up on previous stories, they can just do original stories and be entertaining. And they have the freedom of villain choices. Star Wars is JUST Sith and thats it.... Its almost comical because they had a huge issues with TFA. You cant have a villain and not be a Sith. But they wanted to do a new villain that maybe wasn't a Sith. So they invented Kylo Ren....A semi-sort of - kind of - Sith Lord. That was their brillaint solution. /sarcasm.

I think TFA is just going to end up like every other spin off, prequel, etc SW film where its just another SW film that will never touch the OT. If only they took chances on TFA and did things different, we might have had a great film because its common knowledge JJ knows how to direct.

 

TLJ will be the make or break for me. TFA was allowed to repeat things because of it's place in the saga, both narratively and culturally. Narratively, the trilogies always start out with the same basic story and then head off in different directions, so TFA would be following suit in that respect. Culturally, TFA was Disney's promise to fans that the new Star Wars will be highly entertaining. Originality took a back seat to that. But now that Star Wars has on caught with the population and the new cast of characters have been appropriately introduced in Star Wars style, it's time for more risk taking. If TLJ doesn't deliver in that area, I may just be turned off for future films.


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Honestly I think the charge of lack of originality alone against TFA has ended up s a bit of a defence. I don't think it suffers from quite the same issues as the PT did in terms of poorly planned plot and dodgy dialog("Han solo can't save you now!" is close though) but the general standard is I think aiming lower along the likes of Abrams Trek. If he'd successfully remade ANH in style but lacked originaliy I think he'd deserve a great deal of praise, as it is I think he's made a film lacking in development of characters/location/atmosphere with a lot of nostgia, rapidly aging metahumour and generally a lack of subtly visually and on the whole with a cartoonish tone.

To me this has been made all the more clear with the release of Rogue One that aims so much higher, that's become even clearer on home viewing for me, TFA was quite fun to watch a couple of times at the cinema but honestly I really struggle to watch it at home where as Rogue One's greater ambition and subtly rewards repeat viewings the same way the OT films did. That comes across as the work of someone who really loves SW, TFA comes across as a film made to order for me.

Just my opinion of course but I think its taking time for this to be acknowledged because expectations of TFA and hype behind it and Abrams was so high, reviewers like Stuckman and RLM can't really back down without acknowledging there own limitations.

 

TFA was a soft reboot. Han even reverts to his pre-ESB and ROTJ self. TFA makes so much of the character development in TESB and ROTJ moot. It is a enjoyable but frustrating film.

 

Great post....I got to be honest.....I wonder if its my age. Like would I sit in the theaters and be blown away by TFA or Rogue One if I was a kid again ? I don't know... That is what baffles me. As I watch Rogue One / TFA, it just seems such a corporate produced product in order to please everyone without taking any risks or chances that might alienate certain crowds. The copied the OT with a SJW flavor. Its almost disgusting from my perspective.

I think movies reflect the times. What people are into at the time, and the studios caters to that in order to make as much money as I can. Because right now, Star Wars is 'hot' and whats in are remakes, sequels, reboots, its whipped together so fast without any risks or chances. They make a nice looking film with big explosions and good CGI, but they lack a great script idea. They think of the title first and then write the movie. Rather than having a great story, then creating the title. I think the time right now is that groups of people are so sensitive. So they carefully construct a plot and story where no one gets offended, every race, sex is represented so they dont offend anyone. They want to please the hardcore SW fans, but want to bring in casual movie goers to, so its this strange balance of trying to please both, which of course ends up pleasing no one.

I'm typing this as if TFA or Rogue One are awful films - they really aren't bad films. But in terms of the OT, the films lack the magic of the OT. I dont ever think they'll get back to the perfection of any of the original three films. Instead, there are just so many issues within the film. Things that dont make sense, things that arent SW, things that dont add up, and characters that are dumb.

I've been so hyped for prequels and TFA. Rogue One, wasnt that hyped, more curious. For TLJ, I am really not so stoked even though Benicio Del Toro is in it and it focuses on Luke. I just fear the same issues I had with TFA will be in this one. Things are too familiar in terms of structure and characters from OT, its just a rip off of Empire Strikes Back, and the film takes no chances out of fear of alienating groups. Thats the time we live in though. Hollywood is a corporation. Disney is a Corp that has board members. In the 70's Star Wars was such a smash hit, it caused Hollywood to make a Star Trek film (The Motion Picture - orginally they were going to do another tv show titled Phase 2), James Bond became Sci Fi believe it or not (Moonraker, lol), and that was the trend of Hollywood. Now we are on a trend of sequels, franchise, remakes, reboots - and Star Wars is now NOT a trend setter like 70's, but just another follower of the trend. It now went from one of the most interesting and best films of all time into another popcorn blockbuster that doesn't have a lot of depth within its story. I tend to mourn Star Wars franchise. The Force Awakens is not a bad film, it has some cool moments, cool scenes, great director. But overall, its just a rip off of the OT just in order to get Disney back its 4 billion dollar investment. And its obvious. I just wish the filmmakers really concentrated on a great story and took its time on the script and thought things through that made sense. They didnt have Lucas breathing down their neck, Disney had freedom. They certainly had a mega budget. They had a great director on board, JJ Abrams. And they even got the old cast back. Everything fans wanted - but the product that was finished was no different than any other 'decent' sequel, remake, reboot franchise film of the year. I honestly would rank probably 10 Marvel Cinematic Universe movies over The Force Awakens, and MCU knows what it is - just a popcorn blockbuster based off of comics. The Force Awakens feels its trying to be this great epic that matches the OT, when in reality, its just another different type of MCU movie. A franchise film based off of an IP that is a sequel. Thats it...... Its not this wonderful epic sci fi movie like Lord of the Rings trilogy did.

If The Last Jedi doesn't work for me, I agree, I'm done with these movies. I'm done with the hype. I'm done with the anticipation. I'll just see it when the crowd dies down like I do with a Planet of the Apes movie. There is no more mystery or magic. Its just another corporate produced franchise film to get as much money as they can and sell as many toys as they can.

 

TFA and Rogue One both lean heavily on existing Star Wars films in a way that TESB never did. ROTJ had some of this problem though too. Even Episode One was criticized for copping the ending of Star Wars with a Skywalker taking out the big bad guy battle station/command ship.

These films repeat each other often. Empire is the exception not the rule for the SW series. Even my least favorite o the entire Saga, Attack of the Clones, has more freedom with its narrative and story.

 

I doubt you are factually wrong, but check out these lines Lucas penned in 1975. As with other items, it is possible, however unlikely, that JJ Abrams was appraised of the financial promise of certain passages, and exploited it.

Adventures of Luke Starkiller, Third Draft, August 1, 1975

 

I'd agree Bret that TFA feels like its caught between trying to follow the MCU (and more clearly Abrams Trek films) and trying to go down the more epic path of the OT and achieves neither successfully. Marvel and Abrams first Trek do at least generally features some entertaining if broad characters and some visual imagination but TFA is unable to cut loose in that direction yet goes far enough down that path to kill the chance of producing something with more ambition.

Rogue One for me though is very clearly a different kind of film, I think its clearly made with a freer hand by a director in his prime with ambition on a similar level to Lucas or Peter Jackson. It doesn't look to exactly recreate the OT in style and I wouldn't say its perfect but it is IMHO one of the best blockbusters of recent years along with Fury Road. I'm hopeful TLJ might be given similar freedom and Johnson I think showed a good degree of talent with Looper.

 

"Biggest surprise to me is how much creative leeway Lucasfilm is giving Rian Johnson and Colin Trevorrow to write their films and make up plot and characters from scratch. I had presumed (wrongly) that JJ Abrams and Larry Kasdan might have sketched out an arc for the entirety of the current trilogy. But as Rian Johnson told me, it really was a creative handoff—“Over to you, Rian.” And Rian is handing off to Colin Trevorrow in the same way. He said he's made a mess that Colin will somehow have to clean up."
https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/com..._the_last_jedi_cover/?st=j33s67ll&sh=faab18d9

 

Most of my complaints about TFA are really down to the director and his style.

1. The running. Why does everybody run everywhere at full pelt in a JJ Abrams movie? The crew on the Enterprise in his Star Trek movies did exactly the same, running everywhere at full speed. Nobody walks in a JJ Abrams movie, everybody has to run.

2. Star Wars isn't exactly renowned for deep and meaningful dialogue, but some of it grates terribly in TFA. Main offenders being:-

"I can do this" "I can do this, I can do this"
"Are we really doing this?"
All of Hux's lines

3. When the characters talk at the same time on the Millennium Falcon after they excape Jakku. Another of Abrams' traits.

 

He's likely trying to emulate his main influence Spielberg with that. That is a hallmark of many of Spielberg's films.

 

I think I need to watch this movie more so I can stop thinking about what I don't like about it. I really haven't watched it since the one time after buying it over a year ago.

Someone on YouTube assumed that is what is happening, basing it on how there was a lot unanswered in "The Force Awakens." This is why I'm trying to condition myself to not invest much thought and anticipation into this trilogy and just look forward to each movie the same way I look forward to any other.

 

We see Poe take off his jacket when he gets in the seat of the TIE and when falling to a planet if a passenger is thrown from their vehicle at high altitude, as Poe probably was, it would be easy for his trajectory to put his landing point far from the ship.

Even though I also started to feel disenchanted with TFA after seeing it over a dozen times, rewatching it again today after not seeing it in a long while I'm finding myself really enjoying it and feeling that same magic I expect from Star Wars. So many things are done so right! Even though I agree that we'll probably never get anything that's equivalent to the originals, it has made me surprisingly happy and again grateful that we get to have more Star Wars.

I also want to make a comment I have been meaning to for a long time - I don't understand everyone's beef with the Rathtars. For anyone thay has mentioned otherwise, thank you. From the first time I saw the movie opening night I felt Rathtars and that whole seen was SO Star Wars and a nice creative addition to the saga. Ok I feel better now. Thank you.

 

Interesting analysis. I liked TFA but would add a 4th. The way characters in JJ Abram's films are often on the verge of a cliff when the ground caves in. I liked the characters talking at the same time thing; it reminded me of Han and Leia in ESB.

 

I feel the same about Rogue One. I put it just under the originals in my ranking.

 

Finn was a stormtrooper, but he was always a good guy. It wasn't until his first battle that he finally saw what he was expected to do:

FINN
I'm not Resistance. I'm not a hero.
I'm a Stormtrooper.
(stops her)
Like all of them, I was taken from a
family I'll never know. And raised
to do one thing...
(emotional)
But my first battle, I made a choice.
I wasn't going to kill for them. So
I ran.
FINN (CONT'D)
Right into you. And you looked at
me like no one ever had. I was
ashamed of what I was. But I'm done
with the First Order. I'm never

going back. Rey, come with me.

Prior to this, he was a janitor on SKB, not a seasoned warrior like Anakin.

 

Disagree with Rathtars. They were completely un-Star Wars. It felt very VERY Star Trek. They were just a huge CGI blob thingy we see in every movie these days, not inspiring and overall a poor attempt at creating suspense. The Wampa , who you cant even see clearly, was 100x more suspenseful and awesome. The Rancor was ICONIC in terms of a Star Wars like monster. The Rathtars were just weird and felt out of place. Just how I see it.

Things TFA got right for me:
-Dark Forrest Setting with lightsaber battle
-Han and Chewie being relevant to the story
-A few nostalgic moments with Han / Chewie / Falcon
-Leia and Han had a child that became powerful w/ Force
-Keeping Luke a mystery for the next film
-BB-8 , awesome new character to the franchise, although Baby Groot just beat him

Things TFA got wrong for me:
-Rathtars
-Snoke, big dumb CGI "I'm EVVVVVVIL MAN"
-Rey being way too powerful without any training, the jedi mind trick without training was insulting to intelligent fans
-Kylo Ren character
-Not explaining the setting for the film, what state is the universe in
-Rehashing Empire to become 'First Order' and rehashing Rebellion to become 'Resistance'
-Finn being a comic relief
-Finn even being able to touch Kylo. These storm troopers cant even shoot a blaster correctly and I'm suppose to believe a random one can even make a mark on Kylo Ren who is like third most powerful character in the UNIVERSE behind Snoke and Luke ??