ST The Official "List Your Complaints About TFA" Discussion Thread

I agree that the first 30 or so minutes of TFA is probably the best ever in star wars. It works on every level to me. I actually really enjoy how we are introduced to poe, finn, and kylo all in short order. I love how they turn the mythos of the big baddie on his head. Kylo starts out as a supreme bad a**, cutting folks heads off, stopping a bolt in mid air and force chocking Poe, but by the end of the movie it is reveled he is a snot nose kid with daddy issues even though he is extremely powerful. It is the exact invert of darth vader where in a new hope he is cool looking but doesnt really do much, he has a terrible light saber duel with obi wan and doesnt really do much after that until the tie fighter scene. Darth Vader is much more menacing in the sequels as his legend grows. I thought it was really clever how kasdin and JJ made Kylo start off as a darth vader clone but broke down his mystique and showed the conflicted boy behind the facade of the mask. To me you can take kylo in many interesting directions from here on out. Even though I agree with some that finn made the change too fast, I did like the fact that they humanized a storm trooper in the movies, also I think he has chemistry with all his cast mates. I believed his banter with poe, rey, bb8, and han solo. Also I dont think he gets enough credit for his emotional scene in maz castle when he is trying to convince rey to run away with him. As far as Rey's introduction I think it is brilliant and blows luke's introduction out the water. Im not a fan of luke at the start of a new hope, I actually find him highly unlikable and whiny brat. I thought how we got introduced to rey was pure magic with no real dialogue. We went through an entire day with her and learned everything we needed to know about her and really the galaxy 30 yrs later. She lives in a burn out wreck, she has been on this planet for yrs, she has no real friends and is barely scraping by. You can tell she dreams of getting off the planet but still holds out hope for her family to come back. Plus I freaking love her score rey's theme is one of my top 5 favorite scores from star wars.

I do agree after rey meets up with han the movie suffers a bit, but I actually like what they did with han. They showed he was not some perfect man now just bc he did the right thing 30 yrs ago. He is a deeply flawed human whose first instinct is to always run away from problems and responsibilities, but when the chips are on the line he will try to do the right thing. That's why his death works for me at least. Han solo at his heart is a lovable rouge, a gambler and doesnt always make the best choices. Maybe if he stuck around kylo would have turned out different but we will never know bc he missed his old life.

 

I think the way the Millennium Falcon is introduced is a nice way to let the audience understand that a lot of time has passed since ROTJ and that some interesting things may have happened to Han (who has yet to be mentioned).
Maybe it's oddly convenient that the ship is reunited with its famous captain so soon after the escape from Jakku, but that sort of storytelling isn't exactly unprecedented in the Saga. I quite like how the Falcon seems to be a trouble magnet. It attracts Han who in turn attracts pirates, which results in Rey and Finn getting a taste of the criminal underworld. They elude capture but end up in a world of monsters.

 

1) Originality: It's a fair point but I think you almost refute this yourself with your maguffin comment. Luke Skywalker is the only Jedi left. It's a logical progression of story to have both the FO and the Resistance searching for him.

2) Solos death: I disagree 100%. If every beloved protagonist dies heroically then you lessen the impact of the antagonists. I actually believe Hans death will haunt Kylo and prove to be a highly influential moment in Star Wars.

3) 30 Year gap: You say that the fact that there's a 30 year gap is no excuse for jumping over plot points. Are you honestly suggesting that TFA should have started with 30 years of nothing preceding it??? The real power of A New Hope was it's ability to tell a story without having to visually exhibit it to the audience. This actually allowed ESB to play on undefined/incomplete plot points resulting in one of the greatest sequels in the history of film / storytelling.

4) Maguffin: You claim that the maguffin is tossed aside just because it doesn't retain sole focus for the entire movie? That's quite a demanding strain on any narrative. Are you really suggesting that the First Order destroying the Republic makes their will to find Skywalker redundant? Luke is undoubtedly the most powerful person we know in this galaxy and the Resistance finding him first will prove to be crucial going forward.

5) Visuals: Fair points made. The prequels do split opinion of course and notably with the glossy visuals. With regards to the OT, the problem we have now is that all terrain choices have been done so it's a little unfair to say that deserts and snow are merely copied. We only have a finite amount to work with.

6) SKB. Yes, I think its the weakest part of TFA. I disagree however with your point about X-Wings being able to blow it up. This was achieved by blowing up the oscillator and destabilizing the core. That was possible because of Finn who knew how the weapon was powered and where the oscillator was located. In many ways, without him, the FO win.

7) Training: Luke's feats in ANH were not achieved through training but by controlling his feelings. It's a huge misconception to think that Force use is only achieved through training. Some would argue that pulling a lightsabre out of the snow or using a mind trick is a lesser feat that directing a torpedo into the Deathstar exhaust shaft without needing your targeting computer.

8) Han/Finn finding Rey. I don't think it's hard to believe that the oscillator (the means of stabilizing the planet) is close to the main control rooms are and ultimately where Rey is being held. Why have an oscillator the other side of a planet? That wouldn't make any sense.

9) Artoo. I think we'll have to wait and see on this one. There may be an explanation in TLJ.

10) Politics: The sequels are criticised for its politics and whilst I think they're necessary, it's fair to say that they could have done better. With regards to TFA, you acknowledge that both sides want to find Luke (here's your conflict). Secondly, the feud of the Rebels vs the Empire didn't end with the destruction of the Deathstar.

11) Gangs: I Agree. Although to be fair, some of the Guavian death gang were cybernetically enhanced humans.

12) Resistance ships: I Agree. Although, I expect we'll see more in TLJ.

13) Landing on Starkiller: Hmmm, not sure I agree with you on this. I actually think it was rather good and it's a little unfair to ask them to use the same tactics as before whilst also criticising them for treading on old ground for other plot points.

14) BB8 on Jakku: When Poe crashed he had no idea where he was on Jakku and could have died in the heat. It made sense to get off the planet and rendezvous with the Resistance, especially given that they could communicate with BB8.

15) Music: Reys theme, and Jedi Steps are incredible pieces.

 

Lots of good points well expanded out. I agree with most of the to a greater or lesser degree. There is originality but that is obviously very low compared to all the other movies. It's all a bit too loose in the comings and goings and the worlds are pretty disappointing as are most of the characters. I mean they are OK but I don't really know why they are doing what they are doing for the most part. We know why they are supposed to be doing it because it's Star Wars and that is the kind of things that happens in movies but in the actual movie fiction why are they doing it?

The only one I really disagree on is the music. Lots of the usual great themes from JW. Rey's theme, Kylo Ren's theme, the Falcon, the Resistance, Starkiller Base etc. The only thing in that regard I'd say is that the soundtrack is really good with the music not used in the movie that it contains while the actual overall movie music probably doesn't flow as well as with the collaboration JW has with Lucas.

Lucas really knew how to use time and space and build situations and pay things off while JJ is more loose with them hence all the nonsense with the Falcon and hyperspace and the map and the like.

Starkiller Base was near parody much of the time and the overall set-up with the state of the galaxy was not well handled.

Locking in that close to ANH remake really hurt the overall fabric of the movie due to those constraints.

So as ever will TLJ make TFA a better movie or make it seem more inconsequential outside of a few threads that continue in VIII?

 

nvm

 

I feel like the highlight of the film really is Rey, Finn, Poe, and BB-8 and their interactions rather than the story of the film or the film as a continuation of the OT.

I do wonder, would the movie have been as well received if people didn't like or enjoy the new characters?

I remember that when JJ discussed the similarities between TFA and ANH, he basically said that to him the characters were more important than the story. Given that seems like he succeeded in what he wanted to do.

that's one major problem because SW should be both about story and characters. Not focusing on one while ignoring the other. And the repetitive nature of the story doesn't mesh well with the 6 previous movies. You don't do a "soft reboot/remake" as a continuation, as then you end up with 2 movies that are tooo similar in the same series.

 

Probably not, but I don't see how this can be used as a criticism. The same question can be asked of pretty much any beloved movie.

 

well because the movie had nothing else that was decent, thats my point. I've already said that in previous posts that even the new characters have their problems. Which is why I said they are the highlight. That doesn't mean I think they are amazing characters, they all have their share of problems, which I've criticized. Either no depth in them or completely rushed arcs, but still likable. Never felt like that about either the PT or OT characters.

nor do I see this movie as beloved, a well received movie doesn't mean it's beloved.

and it is a fair criticism when there are people who enjoyed RO's story but didn't like the characters. Same could be said about numerous other movies. Characters and stories are what make a movie.

also I've said that I've overall enjoyed the movie because of the new characters, if it wasn't for them I would have disliked TFA. And I still think TFA butchers ALL OT characters.

I sometimes feel like I only enjoyed this movie because I give it a free pass for being a SW movie.

 

On that last point... the PT proved to me that a movie does not get a free pass from me just for being Star Wars. Now the characters are the main draw for me in TFA. I pretty much love them all. I disagree entirely that TFA "buthchers" the OT characters. Although I do get the criticisms of familiar beats in TFA, to me, the movie seems very much its own thing to me, so long as TLJ takes advantage of the set-up and moves forward. Also, I adore the visual design of the movie.

 

To me I can criticize little from anything Episode I-VI+ RO.

but TFA, has holes and things one can criticize/complaint about from beginning to end. Which is why I feel like it's a lesser movie.

well we are in a SW forum and SW has always had a place in my heart, it something that never left me. Which is why it's hard to hate anything and why I'm more likely to give it a free pass than other series. I enjoyed the movie, but I don't love it and I think I won't ever.

as for butchering the OT character well that's an opinion. When every character regresses and is misused then yes they are being butchered. And when you find out why there were used the way they were then even more reason as to why they were butchered.

well that is one problem, it's not it's own thing, it's a sequel to ROTJ and follows 6 movies in the same series. All the other movies did a good job at that except for this movie.

and SW shouldn't have cliffhangers either, having bait to bring back the audience. What a dreadful end to a Saga movie.

 

TFA gets a lot of flak but when the trilogy is complete, I believe it will be viewed very differently.

As far as characters go, I don't think you'll find any film that has catapulted new characters into popular culture as well as TFA has done. Kylo, Rey, Finn, BB8 and to a lesser extent Poe are immediately iconic.

With regards to plotholes - I think people should really wait for Episodes 8 and 9 for what might look like plotholes now, may prove to be perfectly reasonable.

I think people should think about the task that was ahead of those at the helm of The Force Awakens. They had the daunting job of relighting the fire to the arguably the most beloved trilogy in the history of cinema with characters that people have fawned over for 40 years. They had to bring this all back whilst simultaneously presenting new protagonists/antagonists. That's no walk in the park.

Not only do I think they accomplished that - but I applaud them for having the bravery to kill off one of the main 3 and leave the primary hero (Luke) as a last minute cameo. Some may criticise that but I thought it was extremely bold and allowed the new characters to breathe.

Finally, with regards to the rehash comments. I remember listening to a podcast a while back with one of the top movie critics (can't recall who) and he was asked about this very issue to which he replied something along the lines of,

Star Wars has been gone for so long and the prequels really divided opinion. The important thing was to get back to basics. Think of it like a pinball machine and before you fire the ball forward, you have to pull it back and release. That's exactly what TFA has done.

I thought that was the best analogy for TFA i'd heard.

 

I find your perspective interesting, even though I really, REALLY disagree with it. I personally can find holes in every Star Wars movie, including ANH and ESB (my two favorites, atm). I still very much disagree about the OT characters being butchered. I think all their positions in the story were interesting, though it remains to be seen what exactly was going on with Luke. But again, that's a matter of opinion, more than anything else. But I really, Really, REALLY disagree with you opinion of the ending of TFA. That ending brought tears to my eyes. It was wonderful. It was magical, it was hopeful. Loved it.

I also agree with King Prana that TFA served as a relaunch of the franchise. Whether or loved them or loathed them (ar were somewhere in between, like i was), the PT really did have a different feel and aesthetic than the OT. TFA, picking up after the OT, had a need to establish a setting. I happened to LOVE it, though I expect and acknowledge not everyone will.

 

I tend to think that the negative reaction to the prequels actually put TFA in a very favourable position in terms of audience expectations and reactions personally.

I really cannot see TFA as some kind of risk taking curveball either, I think its a very safe film that follows Abrams Trek formula that he was hired to deliver. Now I can potentially see elements/characters it introduced going on to be successful but really I don't think that would be down to the groundwork that Abrams put it as so much of what he introduces is actually lacking in depth.

In a way I actually have a tougher time understanding the gushing praise of TFA than I do some peoples love of the PT. With the latter I can at least see that the film are aiming high but with TFA I just see a really medicore formulaic action rollercoaster that would be forgotten very quickly if it didn't have the SW name on it.

 

I think The Force Awakens has plenty of depth.

The original trilogy worked so well because A New Hope gave us iconic character archetypes and a basis with which to springboard the narrative.
The expansive Universe was all made possible because of clever storytelling. Listen to Obi-wan and Luke talking about Anakin Skywalker, the force etc. Small details helped spawn in my opinion, the greatest trilogy of them all.

Does The Force Awakens do the same? I think so. Consider the following stories that happened off screen:

• Leia and Han had a child
• Luke started training a new generation of Jedi
• Leia and Hans kid was pulled to the darkside
• Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple
• Anakins/Lukes lightsabre has been found
• An apprentice turned against Luke and destroyed everything (we assume it's Ben)
• The First Order has arisen from the ashes of the Empire
• Han and Leia have gone their seperate ways

This is expanding the mythology to an extent we've never seen before. Lots of originality and lots to ponder. I'm thankful for that and we haven't even talked about the Knights of Ren, Supreme Leader Snoke, Kylo being pulled by the light etc.

People only think about what they see on screen but A New Hope was genius because of what it managed to encapsulate without exhibiting it visually.

 

^ This plus we actually get an impression of the will of the force in action, rather than the will of the force being used to justify people's decisions or indecision.

 

The will of the Force is always in play. I've never heard anyone use it as justification for anything.

 

To me, ANH is superior in it's storytelling because George Lucas is a story-based filmmaker as opposed to TFA creators who modified that movie around real sets, practical effects and plot structure and visuals of the OT without realizing what made the OT good.
The depth of ANH lies in it's backstory, which is a story that hasn't ended yet. There once was a Republic and there are Rebels that want to restore it. There was a Jedi order, now destroyed by the Empire and Vader, but there's Obi-Wan and a new hope Luke. Obi-Wan and Vader are Force users, Obi-Wan as a Jedi and Vader as the dark side Force user. Everything nice and simple and, most importantly, good.

TFA lies on a six movie legacy. Yes, Han and Leia had a child, but he's alienated from them, why, we don't know. Han and Leia are split, why? There were bits of informations here and there, but nothing concrete. Luke's academy is destroyed, he went away. Why? He didn't say. Anakin's lightsaber is there, no explanation given. The FO is just another Empire with the Resistance serving as Rebellion. Snoke is, again, just there, as well as Knights of Ren.

I'm not saying those things won't be explainer in the second movie (will Maz tell us how she got Anakin's lightsaber?), but TFA is very poor in that department because I feel they put more effort in presenting us of how big the Starkiller is compared to ANH Death star than building a strong foundations for the sequels.

 

Can you give an example?

 

The Force has a will. The Force is ever-present. Ergo, the will of the Force is always in play.
Can you give an example?

 

Well my example would be the inability of Ren to retrieve the saber, which appears to "choose" Rey.

What are the examples prior to this that give you the impression of the force's will being worked?

 

I meant an example of the will of the Force being used to justify people's decisions or indecisions.

I didn't say anything about the Force's will being worked. I said that it's always in play and explained how I reached that conclusion.

 

Well the examples are when trying to discern why the Jedi make certain decisions or not take certain decisions, and people describe it as the will of the force, or use the idea of the will of the ever present force being enough to explain how a states of affairs is allowed by the Jedi. That's not an impression. That's just applying an idea in a general sense.

When I talked of the impression of the will of the force I was referring to a conspicuous example of cause and effect that could intuitively give someone the impression of the will of this force being worked.

 

So what if Luke finds artifact/Callista/other stuff that he was actually looking for in the First Jedi Temple?
Snoke is still there. Ben Solo is still Kylo Ren. Now Han is dead.
You could argue that without whatever he finds in the temple, he won't defeat Snoke or whatever, but he is willing to let all of these horrendous things happen in the mean time?