ST The Official "List Your Complaints About TFA" Discussion Thread

That's not how debate works. They weren't in the story, so suggesting they should have been key to it puts the burden on you to convince people. So far you've only mentioned that they were in the popular game Dark Forces around 17 years ago, and asserted that "many fans would have been ecstatic"; my response to that is that millions of fans were ecstatic anyway.

But, y'know, if you want an actual reason; it would have been utterly bizarre and confusing if the first film to be released after the scrapping of the old EU featured old EU characters in key roles.

 

That's not what I meant. The story didn't have to be about the search for Luke. You could remove that plot element from the film and nothing changes.

They decided to make Luke a central character, but then only gave him (very) limited screen time. They can't have it both ways. Either have him central to the plot and put him in the movie, or don't and keep him for episodes VIII and IX.

While I would argue against the premise of that statement (her ability to use the force doesn't make her a Jedi Knight in training the same way that Kylo Ren isn't a Sith) I'll make this point again. I'm not arguing against Luke's inclusion in the film, I'm just saying the way they did it doesn't really make sense in terms of story telling. The search for Luke Skywalker has no bearing on his eventual connection to Rey. Remove the search for Luke from being central to the story (for arguments sake they are all looking for the plans to SKB) and insert a small scene at the end of the film where Rey and Leia talk about Ben killing Han, and Leia laments that he truly has fallen to the dark side and only Luke can stop him. The movie ends with Rey blasting off to go and find him. Nothing plot wise or character development wise has changed, right? So why does Luke need to be so central to the story?

 

Like Kylo Ren who does not resemble any EU character at all, right?

 

Kylo Ren isn't an EU character. Considering you just attempted to paint me as an antagonistic guy who won't debate properly, that's quite the moving of the goalposts.

 

Kylo Ren is based (not carbon copy) on an EU character in all but name i.e. Jacen Solo

 

I understand wanting to see characters you like on screen, but wouldn't Rey already having a Jedi mentor take away the necessity of finding Luke? Not to mention the role and loss of Han.

 

That implies that her mentor survives and Han is killed.

However, if Kylo were to kill her mentor and show his power, this would set up her final battle with him.

Instead she bested her main rival and has (for me at least) eliminated any interest in the main conflict as there is nowhere to grow in terms of that relationship.

We would also then have Han in more SW movies

 

An assertion that a new character is based on an EU character (something that is far from universally accepted anyway) is a wholly different argument from your argument that including actual EU characters would have been a good idea.

"We would also then have Han in more SW movies " ...says person arguing strongly against what he perceives as "fan service"

Basically it seems that a the rule is;
Things in the film I can criticise = bad fan service
Things the film didn't do but I would like = good fan service


In fact, I think I've hit on something. There isn't a divide between "haters" and "lovers" of the film; there's a difference in assumptions about how much the film should cater to them personally, and how consideration they give to the fact that the film could not please everyone in extreme fandom.

 

Actually I was pointing out that they already did pay some fan service with Kylo. I would've loved to Kyle Katarn in TFA as I think it would have made the movie better ... as I have elaborated regarding the arc of Rey.

You made an assertion that it would be bizarre to scrap the EU then use it, but as per Kylo, they did use pieces of the EU. And depending on what we see in R1, we could see even more linkages to the EU. So it is not bizarre to see Kyle, especially since he was created by Lucas Arts, not some random author.

I am on record as stating a big gripe for me is that I will never see Han, Luke and Leia together in a film again. So yes, I would be happy if Han were alive in the next one so I could see that, because, well the OT is geared around those three and if you want a passing of the torch, that would have been a great thing to have one last time. A complete missed opportunity for me. Note: I wanted one scene, not an entire movie paying fan service. Regardless, there is a strong argument to be made for a scene like that, given TFA follows on from ROTJ and these characters are not only all alive, but pivotal to the storyline.

You seem to have your knickers in a twist, because I pointed out you were flippant in your response. The fact I found it flippant and antagonistic should at a minimum make you want to review the tone of at least that post. I know I review my posting when people make assertions about the tone of it (and I ahve learnt and tried to be more constructive), since we are all here to discuss something we love. Nothing wrong we being heated and passionate, but in a respectful manner.

 

No, that's not what I said. I said it would be bizarre and confusing to have the first film released after the scrapping of the old EU feature characters from the old EU in key roles.

I don't think Kylo is the facsimile of Jaicen Solo that you think he is, but even if he were, a new character who contains elements which have been taken from parts of the EU that the writers like, is a wholly different thing to inserting actual EU characters; Kylo Ren can not simply have Jaicen Solo's history and actions imposed onto him as if they are the same person, while unsterile of Kyle Katarn would immediately lead to questions of which parts of his story are considered canon.

You're comparing apples with oranges, and what's more, you're going out on a limb to do it; you like Kyle Katarn, you would like him in TFA. Good for you. But it's a classic example of an extremely niche viewpoint which a reasonable person would see as being something that a film like TFA could never really indulge, without disappointing the many thousands of fans with their own niche viewpoint.

Unless you can show me some evidence that there was a lot of demand for Kyle Katarn to be in TFA?

 

I've just seen that my autocorrect decided I meant "unsterile" instead of whatever the hell I actually meant.

 

To get this somewhat back on track, I watched TFA a few days ago and found this to be remarkably accurate:

I don't agree with the "terrible" part, but there is a definite drop in quality for me. The first part, which is something of an adventure to find Luke, really felt like a proper, new Star Wars chapter, and then the story just changed focus completely. I didn't actually feel that way when I watched it at the cinema, but by now it's almost as if it's two different movies. I think part of the problem with the "DS3" plotline is the fact that they just blow up the New Republic without any exposition whatsoever. We know nothing about this New Republic other than the fact that RotJ focused on establishing it, thus rendering that victory somewhat moot.

As someone else pointed out earlier, they essentially just reset the series back to the start of ANH and then take it from there. In Star Trek, they used time travel, and here they use SKB and then remove all trace of it (blow it up). The effect is the same: Blam, we're back to square one.

I must say I enjoyed the initial plot, the first 50 minutes, a great deal more than the rest of it.

 

I agree. I felt like the first half of the movie was overall fantastic. I even enjoyed the scene with rathars because while it was a bit Star Trekish in vibe, it was fun and different. About the only thing I didn't like in the first half was it was a bit choppy (some editing choices I didn't like) and the explanation of why the Falcon was just sitting on Jakku. The whole "got stolen to get stolen" was a bit too ridiculous for me. I personally think it just should been that Han had to ditch during the battle of Jakku and while he spent years coming back (the village could been watching out for it) to work on it, he could never get it to fly right or something of that sort. Guess the only reason this works better is that leaves room for a dramatic scene where Kylo returns to the Falcon and looks at the co-pilot he once sat in as a boy and ....*shakes my fist*

As for the second half, I felt like from the Maz bar scene on out was very choppy. Even more so then the first half and while some scenes were great (I actually loved the Han and Kylo confrontation, thought it was absolutely perfect except they could drag out even a bit longer if they wished and had called him "dad" at one point to try pull at the heart strings) there were other scenes were I was just flinch.

I gave the movie a "B" the night I saw it and that hasn't changed. First half was an "A", the second half was a "C" to average out to a "B". Personally I blame Maz. The whole movie fell apart when her zero of a character was introduced LOL!

 

I think I need to watch it a few more times before I give it an overall verdict, as I'm still a bit conflicted regarding the 2nd half. The first half is definitely an A though.

As for Maz, I didn't really mind her, though I'm not quite sure what to make of her. She's 1000+ years old, and is seemingly a powerful Force user. A little backstory is needed here..

 

I agree, it does seem to be full of coincidences. I don't mind subtle coincidences too much (in general), but I think in TFA they're a symptom of the larger issue- it tries to do too much.

Not all things in chronological order

- Introduce and develop Poe
- Introduce framework of new "good guys"
- Introduce framework of new "bad guys"
- Refresh galactic political situation: "The state of things"
- Introduce and develop Kylo
- Introduce and develop Finn
- Introduce and develop Rey
- Rey and BB8 have to meet, and develop relationship
- Finn and Rey have to meet, and develop relationship
- Finn and Rey have to meet Han, and develop relationship
- Re-introduce Han and Chewy, and show personal development
- Finn, Rey and Han have to meet Maz + lightsaber
- Rey has to develop connection and aptitude with the Force
- Introduce and sort of explain SKB
- New Republic needs to be destroyed
- Re-introduce Leia and show personal development
- Rey needs to be captured
- SKB needs to be destroyed
- Luke needs to be found
- Have set piece action sequences as often as possible

I might be granularizing things a bit, but I suppose my point is that a lot of things have to happen in a short period of time to get from point A to point Z. Coincidences help that a lot. Mix in the abundance of action scenes, and the time frame is further shortened. It's why, IMO, they can't delve too deep into anything, and need to rush from point to point through the whole movie to get to the end in time. I can here Bud Collyer saying, "You have 60 seconds to tell this story... and... go!"

Finn helps Poe escape, and they're buddies. Ok.. next? Rey befriends BB8. Ok.. next? Finn somehow joins them, and they're all friends. Ok.. next? They run into Han, and they're all friends too. Ok.. let's go, we only have 45 seconds left! Uhh.. uhhh.. they stumble onto the important lightsaber, and Rey gets captured. What's next, what's next? There's a SKB, and the New Republic gets blown up. Aww, that sucks. Mourn later, what's next? Hurry up, hurry up. Ummm, they blow up SKB and find Luke. Oh, and Han dies. 3 seconds to spare.

The whole SKB mission briefing scene is a microcosm of the whole movie. Quick one-sentence cuts between a multitude of characters, rushing through it, and then as the screen play says, "Everyone splits." Sounds about right.

Hence, why it feels forced and artificial when Finn and Poe embrace like life long friends, or when Finn goes running and yelling after Kylo's ship like he and Rey grew up together, or the devastated looks on either of their faces when Han gets killed. They barely knew the guy. Or Rey's quick Force growth. There was little progression, we were just rushed to the end-result of things to move on to the next part.

In short... complaint: Lack of story telling / character building / organic-feeling progression. To me, that makes for a bad movie. Others don't see it that way, or don't care even if they do, and that's cool too.

 

I'm legitimately disappointed that they left C-3PO behind at the end when leaving to find Luke. Star Wars isn't the same without him and R2 together, which was apparent when how happy I was to see him first show up in TFA.

How great would it have been to have Luke, R2, and C-3PO together again in EP 8? Now 3PO is stuck w/ Leia, probably just to throw out one-liners when they get in trouble, and keep those scenes from being completely stale.

 

While I loved TFA, my only real complaint (and I hate to say this) was Carrie Fisher at General Leia. I know she had been out of acting for 10 years, but her acting was so wooden as she didn't have that spunk that Princess Leia had in the OT. In the TFA documentary she talks about being nervous since she hadn't acted in a decade, and I thought it really showed in her scenes later in the movie.

Hopefully she wiped off that rust and can regain that spunk for Episode 8 because she stays a big part in this trilogy being the sister of Luke and mother to Kylo Ren.

 

She did a few episodes of an Amazon (Hulu?) show called Catastrophe recently and was pretty good. She did have Gary with her, maybe they need to put him in a mocap suit to put her at ease

 

JediChipKelly, I get what you're saying about Leia, and I agree that she isn't really the spunky, hotheaded Leia she was in her younger days. However people can mellow out as they get older. I would actually recommend reading the new book Bloodline. Not sure if you have yet-but it takes place somewhere around 5 years before the events of TFA, and it provides great insight on Leia later in her days as a senator and all the things that are heavy on her mind during this timeframe.

I actually felt she did a great job portraying Leia in TFA. The temperament is a little different but IMO it's more representative of ROTJ Leia as opposed to ANH or ESB Leia if you know what I mean. Also, after reading Bloodline (I'm ALMOST done) I really get a sense of her inner struggle and the things weighing on her heart as well with all she's having to deal with in TFA as a general, the state of the galaxy at the time, all while dealing with the loss of her son to the Darkside.

 

is Gary her dog ? she had a dog with her in Map to the Stars .

 

Yeah

 

I agree, as my original post was not intended as a shot at Princess Leia. I was not expecting ANH/ESB Leia of bitching and snap one liners at Han, because her transition started in ROTJ as she did began to mellow then. I was really talking more about her acting, as I feel like she held something back and it just came off as wooden. Ford was able to transition back with Solo, and didn't miss a beat in TFA. I actually don't mind that her character is more staunch now because she is a General, but I just think her acting really just lacked any emotion.

And yes I started reading Bloodline, and I'm only a few chapters in but its very interesting.

 

Obviously, I'm a huge Leia fan so I'm probably biased... I thought a few of her scenes came across as the most authentic in the entire film; I think Fisher underestimates herself as an actor, and was really beautifully grounded in her work... Just the script was clunky. Her sensing Han's death I thought was beautifully understated. I love her little nuance to 3PO in her introduction to um, get out of the way. I thought the only scene that truly worked for me in the whole movie was the reunion of Leia, Han, Chewbacca and 3PO... For a brief time, the magic was back. I loved "same jacket" and the Chewie hug.

And I thought her deleted scene had a great essence of the Leia spunk and energy that I wish was carried through more.

 

You mean to tell me that getting the OT characters together is a good thing...shocker You are spot on too.

It is just a pity JJ "the fan" doesn't understand that (still scratching my head at that). Not seeing all the OT characters together denied the movie of a magic reunion that would have been fantastic.

Just so many missed opportunities.