ST The Official "List Your Complaints About TFA" Discussion Thread

He tried that approach with her the last time, and it didn't work.

Obviously, I don't know what was going through Kylo's mind, but it looked to me as if he was trying to make her understand that there was no point in fighting back; that the only way out was letting him train her. Well, that's exactly what Darth Vader did with Luke in TESB, isn't it?... He also could have just left him unconscious at the beginning, by chocking him or whatever, and simply take him to the emperor.

Who knows how these Dark Lords think anyway...

 

At this point it seems like you are simply explaining why this outcome occurred. As opposed to arguing that the scene occurring in the way it did isn't difficult to believe.

 

TieFlyer
Vader had a plan though (a two-tiered plan) that the audience was in on... 1) Try and turn Luke for his own ends. 2) Capture Luke and bring him to the emperor. That wasn't as clear in TFA, it was kind of abstract... and I certainly didn't get the idea that Kylo was testing Rey in that duel... sure, he wants her on side... but again it's all rather opaque. And I'm more of the opinion that it's the writers not really knowing rather than the characters... but yes - who knows how the Dark Lords think?

 

Well, it's not difficult to believe for all the reasons I gave these past days... at least for me.

I really don't see any inconsistencies in the whole scene.

1 - Rey is good with melee weapons + Kylo doesn't want to harm her = she stands his initial attack
2 - Rey is getting stronger + Kylo is getting weaker = the longer she holds the better for her
and 3 - Rey tunes in and allows the force to guide her + Kylo can barely stand straight = she injures him

 

1: Going in to the scene, no evidence skill with staff will translate to skill with lightsaber.
2: No evidence prior to the duel that Kylo is getting weaker. Maybe even during, but this irrelevant.
3: An event in the duel.

This is circular reasoning. You can't use events in the duel to explain why the outcome of the duel isn't difficult to believe.

 

Same with Kylo... once he told Snoke she could use the force -which they both had already sensed as 'the Awakening'- he ordered Kylo to bring her to him. And if you needed further clarification, Kylo clearly asks her to allow him to train her. Can't be any clearer!

 

Well, I have to disagree... That's how I interpreted the movie, anyway. But that was just me.

 

Agree to disagree, age old tradition, lol.

 

It can be clearer... watch The Empire Strikes Back as a good example. There's no rhyme or reason for Snoke's plan... apart from 'Jedi good. Red lightsaber wielders bad... so we must destroy them'. Besides, the galaxy should have it's fair share of force sensitives right? Like Kaz? So what's the plan? Kill them all? Employ them? And remember these aren't supposed to be Sith that are running the FO. Are they? So how does their plan differ from Palpatine's? What's the actual point/function of them, other than them just being cut and pasted 'baddies'? I mean if it's just about them being baddies, why have these types (force users) at all? Why not just a bunch of military types or organised crime families/gangs? Is it just so they can have lightsaber fights in the movies?

I obviously don't expect all these things to be answered within the first film, but to be honest, I don't actually think giving your villains motivations that are above, or different, to the other SW villains is much to ask. I would have much rather had a quarter of the film exploring/setting up their plan and motivations, in a believable/considered approach, rather than just another quest to defeat another pointless superweapon. Wouldn't you?

 

All of the OT characters have either given up or have reverted to a previous form of development, it seems.

- Han: reverts from his development in ROTJ of being a committed, but understanding, leader and lover to being a smuggler again who abandons his family after things go bad
- Leia: went back to heading a political/military group, apparently couldn't work things out with Han; didn't seem to learn the Force; draws a parallel herself to Han's reversion
- Luke: I don't even know what's going on here. He appears to have vanished and/or given up in general. If you think about this for a second, unless Ep. 8 does some fantastic explaining, Luke's actions here are not consistent with his character or previous arc in the OT at all.
- R2-D2: Again, apparently gives up until the 'time is right' or something.
- C-3PO: uh... red arm I guess? Makes offhand statement about princesses... when we've only seen one? Which is actually sort of rude to a master? When has 3PO ever been rude to a master? Is he malfunctioning?
- Chewbacca: honestly Chewie is always the same. I guess getting injured counts as some sort of reversion.
- Millennium Falcon: Is sold into someone's private junk heap collection, apparently. And it's been fitted with all this stuff that doesn't work that Rey has to pull out. And it gets roughed up, a lot.

None of the main characters seem to have grown or anything and it makes me sad. It continues the theme for me that this is almost made as a retcon of ROTJ's progress. I don't prefer to think of it that way, but if they were trying to make it 'dark' or something, I wish they wouldn't have undone basically all the good ROTJ brought. A slower slide into darkness that we could see and understand would have been better if that's what they wanted to do....

 

5th viewing last night. I cannot be accused of failing to pursue due diligence to Stockholm Syndrome myself with what is unfortunately for dinner from here on out.

In order of non-reducing complaint persistence:

1. The dumbness, the thinness of the plot never goes away. A MacGuffin to find Skywalker doesn't bear up. Poverty of invention. Lost opportunity. The final scene generates much, much, much hay. 5 repeat viewings and it doesn't hold up. It's just pretty, pretty Mystery Box, with some Williams and some eyebrows.
2. Poe's lines are actually dumb and bad. It is Oscar Isaac's shocking acting capability that just barely stays ahead of guffaw.
3. Finn is still played for laughs. Not in a good way. Finn is still played for capability contrast. Not in a good way.
4. I wish Daisey had any thing at all that wasn't perfect. Maybe some broccoli in her perfect teeth. Maybe a scar. Maybe mishear something in one of her languages. Anything. I got the don't take my hand joke the first time. I got the Rey knows more than you do about your own ship the first time. I don't buy her as a character as much good looking mobile set dressing. A simulacrum of a character. She's kind of like Anakin in TPM. He doesn't do much besides go along for the ride. His choices are downhill.
5. I don't need to be told by foley art when the Force is acting. I don't need foley to accompany Rey eyebrows on their epic journey from victim to victor. I don't need foley to tell me when FN-007 finally gets the hint. Things that occur in the mind do not need foley. Where is the show-don't-tell trust-the-audience?

A thing I did not notice for myself prior to viewing #5:

1. Leia is the General but Poe is the one who authorizes the mission? That's inconsistent with Leia being called a General. Call her something else, liars. She is not shown to have authority when authority is what counts.
2. Starkiller was shown in size comparison to be about 8 times the size of ANH DS, which had been mistaken for a 'small moon'. The larger Death Star 2 in ROTJ was shown to be quite smaller than the moon of Endor. So in TFA the result of the Starkiller planetoid imploding is supposed to be a "star" that is the size of a moon. If it were not for the squeaking nails on chalkboard excuse that this is cinematic license, which I have to remind myself of, I would assess that the intelligence of the entire audience was insulted to a degree greater than the sum of Lucas farts, poops, Jar Jars and C-3PO hijinks. Why do anything that resembles reality? If this is Not an insult to the vaunted Box Office audience, JJ Abrams could have all his planets shaped like cubes and no one would know the difference. So, cinematic license.

I think the parts worth sustained rewatch are:

1. Opening act. Up until the last Solo joke preceding the RApsfshfstupid whatever.
2. Kylo Ren still a highlight. I appreciate Adam Driver's work every time. HE has dimension and merits repeat viewing in every scene.
3. Two comedy exchanges: Rey and Finn meet Chewbacca on the Falcon and ask about Solo. Solo, Finn and Chewbacca outside oscitliateefsjfstupid.
4. The moment that Solo, Chewbacca, Finn and Rey get into the subway car and Chewy hands Han his coat. That was heartwarming and real.
5. The single point in the entire film where I think all the king's horses and all the king's men hit >Star Wars<, that ineffable quality, was with the Resistance spy droid in the Cantina. That alone could be seamlessly transplanted into any of the OT.

 

Darth Vader and Kylo Ren are literally the only villains in all of the SW films that aren't totally 1 dimensional.

 

I don't understand what's not clear about that...
- Snoke's ultimate goal is to rule the galaxy; for which he has to get rid of his main enemies: the Jedis, or the light side of the force.
- In regards to Rey, since Snoke felt the awakening in the force, he wants to turn her to the dark side, as he did with Ben Solo; or get rid of her if he can't.
- About others like Luke, etc... yes, he want's to find all of those that are a threat and kill them; that's why Kylo's mission was to find Luke from the beginning.
- And why would Snoke want something different than Palpatine? It seemed to work...

Well, since I was expecting this movie to be as bad as the Star Trek reboot, I'm quite happy with the result. I always said I would had preferred George Lucas to end his story, instead of a soft rehash. But since the movie is way over my expectations, I can't really say it would be worth the risk; especially since Lucas seems to have lost it.

 

But there's none of the payoff. We don't yet know or care about the character enough for there to be a significant payoff. The emotive response isn't there because the characters are still in development. We don't know who they are or why they are who they are. There's no moment for any of them that brings us to the same highs and lows as the character revelations in RotJ. To try and compare a 1st film with a 3rd film is madness. And, I believe as has been pointed out thoroughly elsewhere in this extensive thread, there are far more direct similarities between ANH and TFA than just the Jakku portion.

 

I wouldn't say that it's ever been 'cool to hate Star Wars' as an entire franchise. I think most people have either a geniality towards it, or some type of respect, either real or grudging. I'd amend your statement to be 'cool to hate the star wars prequels' because no matter how anyone feels about the PT, that is an obviously true statement. In relation to TFA, I'd go as far as to say that there are definitely those people who hate it on the same principles with which they hated the PT, there are those people who simply feel betrayed, and then there are those who are a mixture of both.

 

I dunno.....finding out you've fallen in love with your sister isn't a widely used caricature.

 

And if anyone complains that after 30 years the state of the galaxy is still a mess... well, it's obvious they should have gone with the Democrats, and not the Republicans.

 

Ever since the special editions came out, people been this way just bitching and moaning. I don't think many people even actually like Star Wars in the first place, they just think it's cool to hate on.

They hate the special editions
They hate the prequels
They hate the Ewoks
They don't like ROTJ
Think Empire is the only "good" one
Just think the orginal is ok.
Hate the Clone Wars even though they never watched more than the first movie.

Seems like there are a lot of Empire fans, but not a lot of fans of the whole franchise. In my opinion.

 

As I said before, it's clear as in "I'm the bad guy... so I dress in black and do bad things" I.e. it's perfunctory and surface. What isn't clear is how that is nuanced or complex... as some would suggest. And that kind of level is fine for an average action film. But I believe it makes for a lesser film. As for Snoke, if the characters aren't motivated in different ways, if they don't act in different ways, then what is the point? Seriously? Why not just do a straight remake of the originals? What's the point of bad bloke number 1, dressed in black, who wants to rule the Galaxy by killing the Jedi being replaced by bad bloke number 2, dressed in black, who wants to rule the Galaxy by killing the Jedi? I mean, I understand that the point of the antagonist it to antagonise... I understand that Jedi and Sith are part of Star Wars... but as it stands we've just got one villain who sat in a chair and gave orders to a masked knight replaced by another.

Well... what can I say? I actually think Star Trek 09 is a better self contained film than TFA... but I do prefer TFA (if that makes sense?). That's largely because I feel that Star Trek 09 isn't weighted down by trying to recreate the earlier films and doesn't get bogged down in trying to create faux mystery. But yes, I get where you are coming from with that.

 

Well, we are not in total disagreement there: I always said it was a soft rehash of plot and characters from the OT, and I always said that for me it was no more than a 7 out of 10; that's a bit over average. I even said that comparing it to the OT is unfair, as those are masterpieces; which this one I don't believe it is.

I was going to say before I read your post that I forgot to mention that I even prefer the old designs better than the new ones. For example: I prefer the old stormtrooper helmets, the old X-Wings with the 4 jet engines (or whatever they are called) instead of the 2 split in half; of course Kylo Ren’s helmet is nowhere near Darth Vader’s, Maz is no substitute for Yoda, and I even prefer the old circular dish on the Millennium Falcon. The only thing I like better is BB-8 than the old droids; for which I never cared much. During the whole movie I've been fascinated thinking about how it works inside.

But none of that had any influence in my enjoyment of the movie, or in finding plot holes or inconsistencies; with the exception of BB-8, which added a lot of fun.

 

The Emperor wasn't even in ANH so the fact that we/you got a peak into his character and motivations should be looked at as a bonus, we got a lot more than we got out of the big bad in the OT, so the fact that you are asking for them to divulge even more knowing it's going to be explored in the next two movies should make you realize that you are nitpicking to the most extreme degree just to nitpick. We know that Snoke wants Luke Skywalker and the girl - and to destroy the remaining Jedi - that's all we need to know at the beginning because Snoke isn't involved yet with these main characters, he's not even in the same location as Kylo or the fleet. As soon as Snoke becomes entangled with the main players is when it is the acceptable time to explore this. This is good storytelling and this is how you avoid a convoluted and overly stuffed films. You should address things through characters actions and interactions. Snoke has no interactions with any of the main players yet, except via hologram because of his location.

 

The bolded have nothing to do with not liking Star Wars in the first place. All of the bolded were criticized at release time.

To be fair IMO most people like ROTJ despite the Ewoks.

Also, the special editions aren't universally hated... (in fact the TESB one doesn't bother most people)... there's just some really distasteful changes in ANH and ROTJ

 

This post nails it. Complete reversion of characters. It was tough trying to tell 30 years of backstory. I get that. But we needed a ST equivalent of TPM. I know a lot of fans don't want that "prologue" chapter that tells how good things are before things went bad, but it's absolutely necessary. Otherwise you get what we got here. After the end of ROTJ, everyone reverted back to their ANH status.

BTW, the only reason Chewie got injured was to boost Rey's piloting abilities.

 

If you want to draw comparison to it being more like ANH, then that only serves to underline TFA's structural weaknesses even more. ANH didn't try and create mystery at the expense of plotting/story. One of the problems of TFA, for me, is it overstretches itself... and it doesn't fulfill its early promise. Too many characters who do little, too many locations that don't add anythng. I believe it would have served TFA better if it HAD stuck closer to the ANH template and been much more self contained. Snoke being shoehorned into the film doesn't do it any favours IMO... neither does Starkiller, and I expect most of us think it. They would have been better to focus soley on the Kylo/Hux dynamic... and if a Starkiller needs to be included, at least make it more integral to the plot (although I'd posit most of us would rather Starkiller not feature at all).

 

You just completely ignored everything I said so that you could go on another rant. You are provided good solid explanations that you simply ignore so that you can adjust your argument and complain about something else. Your suspecting that most people share your point of view is not backed up by anything in fact, if it was in general about your points of view on the film you wouldn't feel the need to be so vocal in every single thread on here