ST The Sanctuary - (Dissenters Unite! - Warning on page 232)

I think people by this point would understand that Mark Hamill is too much of a nice guy to walk out on a script. In the end, he wants to entertain and make people happy. So him walking out of TLJ script would send a shockwave among fans. They would wonder if it was Mark Hamill or KK's fault for the fallout. Regardless of what fans may believe in the end, that is enough risk for a PR disaster due to the already volatile nature of the Star Wars fanbase. The fact that Lord and Miller's firing had caused controversy among fans (especially those who liked their works) should tell you that any firing would be bad PR for the company.

But directors are replaceable, actors are not. That's why the passing of Carrie Fisher had more detrimental impact to Episode IX even before TLJ.

 

And I believe Disney and Rian understood that, giving them all the power to do what they know the other side will not.
- Would they try that with Harrison Ford? The guy that didn't even want to survive RotJ?
- They diminished Carrie Fisher greatly by deciding the story of the New Republic/Resistance wasn't an interesting enough story other than to just say "It's there. Accept it." The Resistance friction with the New Republic could have added greatly to an otherwise bland story. It would almost be a take on Saw Guerra while at the same time having very distinct differences. And let's not even get into the Leia force thing. It all amounts to one move that the majority found hilariously bad. Carrie Fisher was an accomplished writer. I can only what she truly thought of the script.

 

- You have multiple independent data sets as evidence. If the RT and MC and IMDB scores were all part of one set, then you would have a point. But they're not. Each is their own beast, created under their own circumstances. If a political campaign was saying that 'all the polls show we're in the lead' and there were two prominent polls that showed they were losing, nobody would say 'oh, well, all the evidence says they're in the lead.' They would say the campaign is flat-out wrong. They might say 'poll aggregators have them in the lead,' but that is a totally different statement.

 

Agreed. Plus, he was just shot! TFA doesn't do a good enough job of showcasing just how badly he's wounded - and TLJ makes it worse by glossing over his injuries and turning them into something merely cosmetic - but it is there.

 

Exactly. In these stories, typically, the hero starts at the bottom, powerless, and through physical and mental training and challenges, they face their fears, are tested at each stage, while using their skills, morals, and talents to overcome the one or two tragic qualities they do have, until they finally fight and win over the powerful baddie. In the OT, that's clearly Luke. Listing this out, though, makes you realize that the true hero of the ST isn't Rey, it's actually Kylo Ren. His character has gone through almost all of that, at least in some respects more so than any other character. Sure, Rey started out powerless, but quickly, almost with a switch, proved very powerful. She never really faces challenges to her character, or overcomes tests that prove her tragic qualities. She has none, in fact. We don't even really know her motivations or needs, at least not other than how they relate to other characters. In each movie, it's Kylo who must face his own fears, and is tested to prove his worth. In the flashback, we now seen Kylo Ren start out as a frightened boy, Ben Solo, who escaped near death from his deranged uncle, and sought the refuge of his new mentor, Snoke, who promised to make him stronger. It's Kylo who must overcome his tragic (light side) qualities and become better. It's Kylo who killed his true enemy. At the end of TLJ, when Kylo is fighting phantom Luke, he's really just fighting himself, which is almost akin to Luke fighting Vader in the cave on Degobah. This lesson will undoubtedly (or it at least should) change him in some way. And the only person who Kylo has yet to beat...is Rey.

But that creates a problem, because most people seem to think Rey is the protagonist, or maybe duel protagonist. When does that leaver her character, if she even has any?

I think this was, like the subplot that contained it, a massive wasted opportunity. This was a cool idea, that unfortunately had no real impact on the story, when it could have blown the entire trilogy wide open.

Imagine for a moment; the Resistance has just lost it's mother/leader, Leia, and suddenly there's a new mysterious character, Holdo, who takes her place. She's doesn't tell anyone her plans, and she immediately punishes our heroes - who we love - for their actions. Strangely the movie wants us to side with her. It's like it setting something up. Our heroes rebel against this figure and set out on a side-quest where they learn that the First Order and the Resistance itself, are getting their weapons/ships from the same people, who are then profiting on both sides of the war. This isn't just a political message, it should be a major revelation of corruption to Finn and Rose. You would think that would bother Rose, to be fighting for an army that may be corrupted, especially after her heart-breaking history. Instead of some wild banther chase, that has no impact to anything in the story, or helps any characterization, the subplot could have immediately changed to get these two to relay this info back to Poe, because it would dawn on him that the Resistance might not be so good after all, that the leadership may be corrupted. I mean, we just saw this new mysterious leader walk right in, she doesn't tell anyone her plans, she gets more Rebels killed ... that could have been dramatic, right? Then Poe's mutiny would have been backed up with real evidence, and real concern. It might explain why the Rebels are always losing, maybe someone is profiting from this. Maybe the Resistance is paid to lose. Then while Poe is back with the fleet taking over, maybe Finn and Rose, instead of releasing abused animals, could have brought down the whole mechanism of arms-dealing in the first place. That could have been a serious blow to the FO, which we know is about to take over the galaxy. Cut off their supply of weapons from the source, and boom, they're now weaker. You know, Finn could have "cleaned up" the corruption...or something

But the movie never goes there. Not even close. The movie instead, it shows Holdo as a true hero who sacrifices herself for her team, a team she doesn't trust, after getting a lot of people killed, and is still was a great leader and Poe was a brash, hot-head who needed a lesson in leadership. The lesson being is that we don't deserve to know our leader's plans, that transparency in government isn't a good thing, and we should all just shut up and follow our orders. Even if those orders come from leaders who we learn might be corrupt.

What a horrible message!

 

I agree. Leia’s reaction was almost like a reaction to finding out that it’s raining on a day you planned to have a cookout instead of learning that your twin brother died...and oh, yeah, he died two or three days after your husband too.

And I know that Rey said that Luke died “ with peace and purpose”, but just prior to her saying that, we saw Luke right after the force projection and he looked anything but peaceful. He seemed to be exhausted and in pain, and he even seemed a bit confused. I didn’t see any beatific smiles on his face, so for me, actions speak louder than words.

And what purpose could a dead guy have?

Sadly, we didn’t get to see Luke’s reaction to han’s death. No, no time for emotional, important, character scenes, but we have time for milking scenes and fishing scenes, and for temporarily saving rathiers instead of children.

 

Really? I thought RJ’s big theme that he had DR and MH push was that help would come from unexpected sources and the line between good and evil would be blurred. Things weren’t supposed to be so clear this time.

I’m not sure what you’re getting at here. Weren’t we talking about how the fact that both sides buy weapons ultimately was only used to show that you can’t use that as an excuse to draw false moral equivalencies?

Are you saying some see the Resistance as a parallel to antifa? Lol and that’s supposed to somehow be a moral equivalent or blurred line or whatever with Nazis? People are weird. If someone thinks there’s a blurred equivalent between those that commit large scale genocide and those that fight against it, I have zero to say to or about that person. I’m here to talk about SW, which has always treated those two things as unambiguously good vs. evil.

 

LUKE DIES
Leia:

 

Well Leia NEVER shows her emotions in regards to tragedy. She saw her entire planet and family murdered in front of her. When we next see her in her cell awaiting death, she’s not crying or showing any signs of distress. In fact she’s still able to put on a brace face and make catty remarks. The reason the audience is upset is because WE knew Luke and Han, so we expected a reaction from her even though it is in character for her to keep her feelings to herself. However I still don’t think Luke was given the respect he deserved. Turning him into a failure to prop up the new protagonist was probably the worst thing they could have come up with. Taking away everything he worked for all so someone else can “get it right” this time was not the way to move the story forward.

 

Leia never shows her emotions is not really true. In ANH we don’t see her grieving for her lost family, but we don’t really see Luke doing that much either, and that is because the style Lucas was going for was a very light-hearted fun adventure movie. So he cut down all the drama.

But she does show her emotions when the camera doesn't cut away. Even in ANH, you see her strong reaction when Tarkin orders to fire on Alderaan. And as the franchise evolved and the relationship/family drama became more central, characters were shown to have more emotional reactions to the events that happen to them – Luke reacts intensively at Vader’s revelation in TESB, and we also see Leia about to cry in ROTJ after her conversation with Luke. In the prequels, you see Anakin crying a lot, also Padme too.

And ditto for the new movies. You see characters having emotional reactions all the time, which is kind of the norm in modern filmmaking. However, when they only show the new characters reacting emotionally but not the old characters, it’s where these issues arise, because it suddenly gives the impression that the movie doesn’t care about the old characters. I mean, it’s really bizarre that Rey had far more emotional reactions to Han’s death than either Luke or Leia, despite she only knowing him for like half a day. That also creates a disconnect with the audience that is emotionally attached to the old characters but are denied proper grieving of them via the characters that knew them best.

 

From the first Poe joke - this is me sitting in the theater watching TLJ



Too bad I didn't have R2 to save me from the garbage.

 

How come everyone is so happy on the Falcon at the end? You literally watch the FO basically wipe you out except a handful of people and everyone has a gee whiz smile on your face including even some high school hook ups playing out.

 

Leia has showed plenty of emotion and sadness over loved ones before:








But for some reason, the two people most important to her - her brother and her love, her former husband, father of her evil son, who die within hours of one another, as she's losing her entire Rebel fleet, don't really warrant it ... apparently. I'm not saying Leia would break down crying, but at least give us something. Some poignant moment of remembrance. And it's not just Leia either. We also don't get to see Luke's reaction to hearing about Han's death. His best friend. The movie even shows us Rey crying multiple times over Han's death on Ahch-to, all while Luke is in the background being comical. It's so off-putting that you don't show the characters who have spent decades together, react to their deaths, in some way. But someone who has been in the story for 2 days, is showing us how important they were. It's another example of the new characters not earning their place in the story. The story just places them this position, with this reaction and tells us to accept it.

 

I suspect it's all a reflection of how Johnson feels about the characters.

But If you have no connection or strong feelings about the long established character's you still write it for those who, you know, might - ya dummy!
How many times has he actually watched the OT. Johnson won't be forgiven by many fans of the OT - what a complete and utter, dramatic story telling dunce.

 

Rey: *holding her broken lightsaber and in the middle of 10 people of the Resistance* what we'll do?
Leia: we have everything we need
Rey: ... Really?
Leia: Actually I have no idea what we'll do, I'm just reading the script

 

Catching up on the hate is achievable, I did it with TFA. It actually helps to focus and refine your hate of this disaster.

Books are good at providing telling story bits in the correct sequence that otherwise end up on the editing room floor and also providing details of what is going on inside someone's head that you can't depict onscreen without cheesy voiceovers. The best example of this is Anakin in the ROTS novelization during which a "dragon" representing Anakin's self-doubt, weakness and need for attachment poisons his mind to trick him into joining Darth Sideous.

Although I think that the original source for this new book/graphic novel has already been debunked as fake news (not that it matters), shouldn't these books/graphic novels be coming out before (or at least during the same time) as the movie? Trying to patch plot holes in the movies are for later books to retcon, fix, etc.

Perhaps you need to meet Rey. She's all of that and more!

I don't have a problem with Leia using the Force. We don't think about her being a Jedi because we grew up with her being the soldier statesman and Luke being the Jedi Knight. Her using the Force is a "well, duh!' moment for us. We can at least surmise about Leia that she has some Force talents based on the bloodline comments during the OT, her Force phone call with Luke in ESB, and 30 years of potential learning. Seriously, for all "the Force is female" t-shirts out there, why couldn't they have made Leia be the one that Force Projects herself on Crait? Or face Kylo outright? Or lift the rocks? In the SW universe that requires some training on how to actively manipulate/control the Force (aka pre-ST), Luke's formal force training with an actual instructor is a few hours on the Millennium Falcon and a week or so on Dagobah. If the writers wanted her to be nearly as good, or better, than Luke, it's in the realm of believability.

 

Rey: I thought we needed Luke?
Leia: I meant only for like 5 minutes. To distract Kylo. Luke knew what I meant.
Rey: But, the last movie made it seem like he was going to save us. Everyone except us 12 are dead. Is that really saving us?
Leia: Shhhh. Shhhhh. (Force sleep activated)
Rey: I'm feeling tired. It's been a long 2 days.

 

Thank you for making plain the context in which the valid observations have a rock solid foundation.

 

No foreboding of Phasma's appearance. No set up.

How can people be hyped for the fight as a payoff if there's no set up.

Even the Praetorian guards got a set up, when Kylo visits Snoke in the beginning.

 

Everybody looked pretty somber at the end of The Empire Strikes Back. And they still had a Rebel fleet to go back to.

I didn't see people that made it out of the Twin Towers smiling. At all. They were more likely dealing with Survivor's Guilt, if they could even put together a coherent thought at that point. The smiles usually come after victory of some significant level. There was none of that in this movie.

 

Bingo.

I feel like a broken record, but I have been arguing for this idea for about three years now. By flipping the dynamics you get the best of both worlds. You can keep it familiar with the Empire/Rebel imagery, but the dynamic is fresh. Most importantly it puts the OT cast in new, yet potential scenarios.

Examples
-Leia as a Chancellor has to deal with the fact that the Senate wants to approve of a weapon that would put an end to the Neo Empire/FO etc. Given what happened to Alderaan that puts Leia in a unique position.
-Luke could deal with what role the new, yet expanding Jedi Order has to play in all this. Are they an active arm of the New Republic or are they more independent?
-Han could have been an old, retired General, who has been recalled into action (Sort like MacArthur in 1941).

These are just some potential ideas they could have incorporated by flipping the dynamic that would make things interesting IMO.

 

This is for sure one of my huge complaints about the movie. The tone never matched the fact that we were watching a total massacre play out slowly over 2.5 hours.

 

This is really minor. More just funny really. But was always else kind of taken out of the movie when Yoda says Rey's name. I mean, of course he was probably watching her, as he did Luke. But it just kind of reminded me of when i was a kid and my parents would ask about if Link saved Zelda in the game I was playing. Like...how did you know that? How did you know those names?!? Iol

 

I actually think it would have been much better for Leia if she was in the position you said and fighting against "The Resistance". Telling them that they are only making matters worse by ramping up the violence. That would show her mother in her. Willing to fight for a cause, but also willing to not fight when you are essentially the bully.

And then make it ambiguous as to whether she is right or wrong on her views to show just how grey it becomes from that position. Does she crush people that are no longer truly a threat and become the thing she hates, or does she risk letting that nuisance grow into a true threat by sticking with diplomacy.

That gives character depth.