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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST The Sanctuary - (Dissenters Unite! - Warning on page 232)

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by BretHart, Dec 13, 2017.

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  1. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

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    Jan 23, 2011
    No the theme was to choose the way you act heroically, rather than rashly getting yourself, and others killed. The way that Poe acts is the obvious choice, not the best one for the long term.
     
  2. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 19, 2016
    Poe lost what appeared to be about 5 to 6 bombers and a couple of x-wings and their pilots as he took down what the movie shows us is their only fleet killer (even the Supremacy didn't have that kind of firepower). The people that died did so for their cause. They saved the fleet from guaranteed annihilation shortly thereafter.

    Holdo appeared to lose everything but the Millennium Falcon (which wasn't even part of the Resistance a few days earlier) and all but a small cargo ship full of the Resistance. None of them died fighting in combat. They just got picked off.

    Choosing the way to fight indeed.

    From what I gather, they were running away from that crazy Nazi street gang. Which you agree, which you admit is not only irrational, but the wrong thing to do.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
  3. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

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    Jan 23, 2011
    We don't actually know that the Dreadnaught would have destroyed the Resistance fleet sicne it probably would have been out of range like the Supremacy. It's also incidental that the Dreadnaught could have immediately threatened the Resistance since Poe didn't know the Resistance was being tracked.

    They died heroically, however Poe probably should have obeyed Leia's orders.

    Holdo only lost because the escaping ships were given away by Finn and Poes attempt to be heroic again.

    No, they were still taking proactive action, in order to better fight First Order later because they knew turning and fighting would only get themselves killed, and they wouldn't be able to help later. You only give your life if nessisary and the only option. Being heroic doesn't just mean rushing into battle, it means doing the best thing for the situation and for good to triumph.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
  4. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 19, 2016
    Actually we saw the tactics of the F.O., which were sound (Hux must have been on his meds for a brief second).

    The fleet jumped in prior to the Dreadnought, assessed the situation and then had the Dreadnought show up in position. So it would have been successful at either shooting down the Raddus or successful in forcing the Raddus to go to lightspeed.

    And even if that didn't happen (which of course it would), the Dreadnought would have been able to destroy the base on Crait quickly.

    And finally, Leia/Holdo endgame of the plan. Find a base and call for help. And we saw that fail.

    The Leia/Holdo plan failed on every level. And this is using what the same writer gave us that wrote the theme. Did Rian hide the plan from Rian?
     
  5. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

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    Jan 23, 2011
    Why? It could have been out of range like the other FO ships.

    Except their plan meant they wouldn't know they were there.

    Their plan was to wait until the First Order passed. Their call likely would have been answered if it was simply provided a place to escape too - people didn't want to fight to break them out. Even if no one responded they would have still been their to fight back (from Leia's perspective with Luke).
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
  6. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 19, 2016
    Read what I typed again.

    Which is the worst plot armor one can think of. The escaping ships were visible from Snoke's 2,000 generations obsolete magnifying glass. We are simply asked to turn off our brains for that to work. But we don't have to. Because Snoke can see it with his magnifying glass. So we'd have to turn off our brains and
    [​IMG]

    Now you are just assuming things that was not in the movie in any way shape or form. And you can't even apply logic to it. If they are too afraid (or dead) to answer the distress signal, do you think they would invite the most wanted group of murderers, traitors and thieves to hang out with them so the F.O. spies can devastate their planet?

    Not to mention, how would the Rebels get there? And why wouldn't they have just started doing that in the previous 18+ hour chase? Obviously, people could come and go from the chase at will. (see Finn/Rose, Chewie/Rey, Finn/Rose/DJ, Chewie/Rey again, Finn/Rose yet again).
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
  7. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

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    Jan 23, 2011

    Again, this is a general plot hole with the entire chase - why didn't the First Order send ships to cut them off. They didn't for whatever reason (tied up taking over the galaxy). The fact is that there is no reason a Dreadnaught would have been any better at destroying the fleet than the Supremacy or Star Destroyers cutting them off - therefore what Poe did wasn't nessisary (which is what we are discussing).

    For some reason, unless Smoke was constantly looking for fleeing ships, I feel like they had a window which they were going to risk.


    It's Leia's secret code to her trusted allies. Any spies are an accepted risk to reforming the Rebellion. No one said they had a risk free plan because such a plan doesn't exist. A plan they lay out in the film.


    They didn't want to risk their allies unless they were in an absolute dire situation with their back to the wal. They had a plan which would mean the should risk getting to the base rather than risking their allies.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
  8. grd4

    grd4 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 11, 2013
    Did you ever find yourself so apathetic about a movie that you couldn't even summon the energy to list detailed complaints? That's me and The Last Jedi. (And The Force Awakens, and the ninth episode I'll never watch.)

    Example: "Whaddya mean Luke thought about murdering his own nephew? His sister's friggin' son? Someone he'd have bounced on his knee as an infant? How in the name of God could Rian Johnson have even entertained...eh...you know, it's not like this is really part of the story...it's not like Lucas wrote this or anything...this Disney crap, it...it's kinda like...like fan-fiction that just happened to make it to celluloid...forget about it, I'm getting sleepy..." I-)
     
  9. Rhyoth

    Rhyoth Jedi Master star 3

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    Dec 20, 2015
    Can we stress out one more time that this line isn't in TLJ ?

    Please no BS : if i can't hear it, then it's not there !
     
  10. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2016
    Now let's go over the idea that The Last Jedi and the Disney movies are doing at least as well as the OT and definitely better than the PT financially. And that is somehow proof that it is a) a great movie and b) nothing to set of alarm bells financially.

    Well, if we are going to talk financially, then let's just talk what investors care about. For every dollar I put in, how much am I going to get back.

    So from best to worst (in millions)
    Movie WW Production Gross Prof Return
    1 OT ANH 775 11 764 69.45
    2 OT TESB 538 18 520 28.89
    3 OT RotJ 475 33 443 13.62
    4 PT TPM 1,027 115 912 7.93
    5 ST TFA 2,068 245 1,823 7.44
    6 PT RotS 849 113 736 6.51
    7 PT AotC 649 115 534 4.64
    8 ST TLJ 1,350 250 1,100 4.40
    9 ST R1 1,056 200 856 4.28

    So for A New Hope, the Worldwide was 775 million, 11m production, 764m gross profit which is 69.45x the 11m used to produce.

    So two of the three Disney era movies are in the bottom three and they are lower than the lowest PT era movie, AotC. The best PT era movie, TPM, did better than the best ST era movie, TFA. Overall, the PT era combined did better than this Disney era combined.

    Does that mean they will cancel Ep9. Of course not. Does that mean that Disney is simply thinking everything is doing just fine? Well, considering that The Last Jedi is only doing as well as a SW story movie, absolutely not. Has Rian Johnson's trilogy been reassessed. Guaranteed. Its return on gross profit is essentially the same as a movie that required massive reshoots, a second director and second writer being brought in.

    We're hearing it now.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
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  11. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

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    Jan 23, 2011
    I don't know why this isn't in the Box Office thread?

    Never the less this assumes that production companies are expecting the same gross profits as they got back in the day. They don't. They know that production costs are higher than they were previously (relative to what they can make), and therefore don't expect these films to make as much gross as back in he day when production costs were cheaper.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
  12. Miriedis

    Miriedis Jedi Master star 3

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    May 23, 2015
    Plus, box office receipts aren't always an indicator of a good movie. Take the Transformers films, for example. Revenge of the Fallen made $836 million, Dark of the Moon made $1.124 billion, and Age of Extinction made 1.104 billion. None of those movies were masterpieces, or even really that good. Age of Extinction was filled with incomplete CGI and lazy editing, not to mention all the others flaws everyone's come to expect from the Transformers franchise, but it still passed over the billion dollar mark. And their Cinemascore ratings--for all five films--never earned anything lower than a B+. It's much more interesting to see where films exist within their franchise, and how their week-to-week box office standings compare to one another. TLJ crashed and burned so bad in China that it was almost completely pulled from theaters within 2 weeks, while TFA and Rogue One did markedly better. Not great, but a lot better. Disney's not going to be happy about losing out on China, and that's an interesting way to look at TLJ's success as a film in the Star Wars franchise overall, at least in that market. What about Avatar? It made over $2.7 billion, but who here can say it actually left a significant mark on pop culture? I saw it at least four times in theaters, but I can't even remember the main character's name off the top of my head. So it's not always a good idea gauge a movie's success by their Cinemascore or their standalone box office totals (although I haven't seen anyone explicitly suggest that so far).

    (And for the record, I liked the first Transformers movie, and the third one was okay, but I won't ever deny that they're incredibly flawed.)
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
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  13. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 19, 2016
    Why are production costs higher? Tech is cheaper. Wages have remained stagnant. You don't even have to build as many sets.

    TFA's budget was much higher. The $250 million is after something like $50 to $70 million back in tax credits.

    The minute you attacked other posters for daring to suggest TLJ could hurt the franchise going forward, you brought counter discussion onto the table. Or is it only a one way street. I wouldn't be surprised if it is. The big difference is I provided facts as opposed to just talking about facts (which weren't facts on your end btw).

    Stop stifling discussion.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
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  14. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 8, 2015
    I should add that there wasn't much else in there except perhaps deleted scenes because Foster, Glut and Kahn were essentially just embellishing the screenplays.
    The screenplays featured enough world-building so that the OT films were able to stand on their own 'feet'. It wasn't before Brian Daley coming up with the OT radio dramas that certain scenes from the OT films were expanded or new ones added (e.g. how Leia got the Death Star plans).

    That's the one thing I still find somewhat confusing. The ST is especially supposed to appeal to general audiences, yet these will hardly buy the tie-in materials to understand the background settings, which every ST film should reveal and clarify itself. [face_dunno]
     
  15. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

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    Jan 23, 2011
    Various reasons. Here are some good articles on the subject:

    movies/17187/why-are-films-getting-so-much-more-expensive

    https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www...ies-are-more-expensive-to-make-than-ever/amp/

    The short of it: CGI and audience expectation.


    So yeah, their standard of successive is not based upon comparing past grosses.


    I've alreads said why I don't think it was attacking anyone, but rather their opinions.

    You said some pretty close minded things yesterday here so I'm not willing to take lectures on the matter.

    Please drop the subject.

    That said I think the would be better suited to the Box Office thread, but I'm not a moderator, so I'll wait if they tell us to move.

    Completely agree.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2018
  16. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 8, 2015
    I know that feeling. It's almost a shame that other posters here had to remind me how underused the characters of Chewie, Artoo and Threepio had been in TLJ. At least Chewie had some good moments in TFA, but in TLJ he appears to be not that much more than a background extra. The amount of wasted opportunities in TLJ is staggering, especially considering how much screentime had been spent on that redundant Canto Blight subplot.
     
  17. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

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    Jan 23, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2018
  18. Rhyoth

    Rhyoth Jedi Master star 3

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    Dec 20, 2015
    To be fair, there is not much you could have done with Chewie in that movie : not that many people to talk to on Ahch-to. What would you have him do ? Talk to Porgs for 10 minutes straight ?
    This guy needs a good partner to shine : Rey is simply not that great in that role (name me one good scene the two have together). Plus, the plot too often requires her to be alone...
    As long as he sticks with her, he will be nothing more than a glorified "driver" for her.

    But hope is not lost, as he will once again have the opportunity to interact with the rest of the cast in Ep IX.
     
  19. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 19, 2016
    Chewie is the absolute best person to talk to Luke. Luke is going to be reminded of Han every time he even looks at Chewie. Chewie actually knows Ben Solo (Rey doesn't). Chewie shot Ben Solo.

    Han & Chewie became a part of the search for Luke, which led directly to Han's death.

    Instead, Chewie went to Ahch-To and did nothing. Just rename Ahch-To as Retirement Island. Leia, Luke, Han and Chewie could just sit around talking about the good old days and how kids today are a joke.

    Luke: In my day, you had to build your own lightsaber and it came out right.

    Han: I was frozen in carbonite. My kid gets a little knick on his face and he cowers in fear.

    Leia: I was tortured endlessly by a real Sith. This Poe guy spends a couple of minutes with my joke of a son and he's giving up everything. Unlike Lor San Tekka that died before talking.

    Chewie: In my day, you saw something, you ate it. That's it. As long as it wasn't a trap, that's food.

    R2-D2: When my objective of bringing the plans to OB1 had roadblocks, I'd just keep chugging along even with everybody trying to stop me. This BB-8 is told to get a map back to the Resistance and decides he's just going to hang out with Rey. No urgency. I think he was shopping with Rey at the town market when TIE fighters forced him off the planet. And when everybody does all the work for him to bring him back, we find out he didn't even have all the map. I got so sick of it that I had to step in and fix it for him.

    C-3PO: I kind of like the kids today. Except Poe. Somebody should give him a mission on those slow as _____ bombers that isn't even fast enough to get away from the exploding target under perfect conditions. I literally tried to stop him from going out the back way of Crait to make sure the F.O. killed him. Thanks Leia.
     
  20. Xander Vos

    Xander Vos Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 3, 2013
    Maybe not have him go there in the first place for no reason?
     
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  21. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    @Rhyoth

    [​IMG]

    Of course it ultimately depends on the script writing what you can or want to do with certain characters. I for one would not have minded to see a scene where Chewie hugs Threepio (i.e. just being happy to see another familiar face).

    [​IMG]

    Morgan Freeman got plenty of dialogue being Miss Daisy's driver. :p
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2018
  22. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 19, 2016
    TLJ
    Worldwide Estimated Gross 1,350 million
    Production Budget 250m
    Gross Profit 1,100m
    Return on Budget 4.40x

    Jumanji
    Worldwide Gross right now 768m
    Production Budget 90m
    Gross Profit 678m
    Return on Budget 7.53x

    So Jumanji has already been a better return on investment today than The Last Jedi will be months from now.

    So much for the idea that movies just have to have the highest budgets to make the best return. Or that was just something that happened a long time ago.

    BTW, the Cinema Score for all of the PT movies is A-, and supposedly that's the "scientific" and "acceptable" user rating over hacks like Rotten Tomatoes.

    Should have taken advantage of box office gold Chewie.
     
  23. Harbour

    Harbour Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 15, 2015
    I would not be surprised ofChewiwas was Ben's godfather. He wkas an extremely close to Solo/Skywalker family. Sadly they decided not to make relations more complicated.
     
  24. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

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    Jan 23, 2011
    Because it's business, and you need to hedge your bets and invest what you think will make the best return. Sure, you could make the film for that amount, but if you try and spend just $90 million on a SW movie today its likely going to disappoint the audience and possibly not give you the profit you want. For Jumanji (which, by the way, has been recognised as a dark horse no one expected), you spend $90 million and make $678 million in gross profit. For SW you spend around $250 million and make around $1.1 billion in gross profit.

    So in order to make $160 million in extra profit, you need to take a huge risk and try and make a SW movie for $90 mill. Not a reasonable business decision. I'm not sure why you are focusing on the amount the film makes in relation to its production budget. That's not what studios care about - their targets are set in relation to what the films production budge is. I mean there is a reason the studios have been reducing the middle-budget films, and it's well known why. Sure they could make a SW film for $90 mill (or any film for that matter), but they don't want to risk less spectacle translating into less profit.

    In regard to TLJ its drop is around that of TESB and AOTC (a slight bit more). So I'm guessing that Disney thinks it made just under expectations, but I doubt they would fret over the margin.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2018
  25. ChildOfWinds

    ChildOfWinds Chosen One star 6

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    Apr 7, 2001
    Which pretty much explains why a lot of us are so annoyed with what the filmmakers did to Luke. Having him go off into exile and not lift a finger to help while billions of people were being killed, especially when he was the catalyst that started a large part of the mess, makes him morally culpable as well. And that’s after sneaking into his nephew ‘s room to read his mind without permission; thinking about killing his nephew for having bad thoughts; taking his lightsaber from his belt; and igniting it over his sleeping nephew.

    And Rian Johnson chose to do this to the most iconic hero of Star Wars. Now do you understand why some of us are so upset????
     
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