ST The Sanctuary - (Dissenters Unite! - Warning on page 232)

That is a good point.

Perhaps one of the most irritating things about this movie is that the Resistance felt so… useless. Its plotlines and sidequests were so pointless. All their missions and directives and sacrifices were for nothing, because the new hope are the Jedi, the ones and only ones that can save the day.

I get that there was a theme of failure here, but there was also a theme about growing stronger from failure and nobodies becoming heroes (as long as those nobodies have a high midichlorian count). But that theme was only shown in the main plotline. Nobody in the Resistance got a chance to be a hero too – Finn was almost there, until Rose stopped him for out-of-the-blue romantic feelings, just so that Luke and Rey can save the day.

Leia using the Force in the ending would have be perfect, and way more satisfying than that badly executed Mary Poppins scene. But trully, I wished there was more to the Resistance heroes than being reduced to hopelessness until the Force users figure out what they want to do with their lives.

 

My main complaint is that I find TLJ really depressing. And I think it is or isn't depressing depending on one's focus. Rey, Finn and Poe are the characters one can place hope in. Leia, Luke and Kylo aren't. I think I saw the end of TLJ as the final destruction of the Skywalker family. It ends with Kylo, the destroyer, holding the dice and they fade from his hand. The sense of loss is profound. So while the last scene has little kids and Broom Boy showing there is hope for the galaxy, there is no hope for the Skywalker family itself. And I don't find myself invested enough in the new characters - Rey, Finn, Poe - at this transition point.

IX really might be that Rey destroys the last Skywalker, and they destroy the FO (it will probably tear itself up), so the Skywalkers and their terrible legacy are gone at last. That would be only one view though. The other would be that the Skywalkers took down Sidious and Snoke, with them. So they were all there basically appointed by the Force to sacrifice themselves to free the galaxy of these dark side cancers. That the cancers got so out of control to begin with was because the Jedi weren't doing things quite the right way. Luke's complaint about the Jedi was that they let Darth Sidious rise right under their noses. That kind of thing is what he is cynical about.

My other compliant is that I don't really connect emotionally to the characters. And the emotions don't seem to work in character arcs such that those arcs seem to happen naturally. Instead the arcs have this slight forced feeling to them.

On individual character arcs:

Spoiler: Rey

Rey's arc is my biggest issue because her arc is too suffocated out by all the other character arcs she has to share the movie with. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot was cut from Rey's arc and if it went much better in the 3 hour original before all the chopping occurred. Rey's arc doesn't feel central enough in the movie. It feels like it's not given the breathing room it needs to shine, and therefore to me, it does not shine.

I also don't really feel much about Rey's arc and I'm not sure I even understand the point of it. Rey has come to bring Luke back to the Resistance (surface objective) and to find her place in the Force/get help with her powers (deeper objective). When she has her vision of Kylo's future on the good side and Luke still refuses to come back, Rey decides Ben Solo is their only hope then. She leaves it up to Luke. Either he comes back, or she'll go and try to get Ben back. She has no real understanding it seems of anything in this and I am not sure what she learned by the end of it when it doesn't turn out the way she thinks. We don't know how she is left feeling about Kylo but I think she has established perhaps some firm judgments. She could even be back to her position from the beginning, that there is no light in Kylo Ren. She expected him to turn good, and it seems really she cannot understand anything that isn't good. In a way, like Snoke said, she is a "true Jedi."

Rey isn't tempted to join the dark side in the sense of being tempted by the darkness in herself--there seemingly is no temptation there. I'm not sure she was tempted to join Kylo either. Her stance was pretty clear from the beginning. She is trying to save the Resistance. There is no compromise on this for her.

If Rey cannot be tempted towards darkness at all, her character is rather indomitable. Kylo showed an equal resistance towards the light despite being "conflicted."

What I want is for these two characters to come together and find some sort of balance in IX but I am not sure if that's going to happen. Things are looking pretty dire.

Spoiler: Kylo

Kylo's arc seems to be about finding resolve on the dark side. I actually perceived his conflict as decreasing after Rey left him, and I think it's because in his poisoned mind he began to trust someone and she left him just like everyone else, so he'll just destroy everything to cope with that. In the beginning of the movie he can't fire on his mother but at the end he is ordering the FO to destroy all of the Resistance (no prisoners) without hesitation. Much about Kylo's story is showing how firm he is on the dark side. When Luke peered in his mind he saw the darkness had already taken hold, Snoke had already turned Ben's heart. He gave up on him because it was already too late. Leia accepts by the end of TLJ that her son is gone.

Aside from Luke's statement that "no one's ever really gone" and Kylo on his knees looking at the dice in his hand, there seems very little hope for the good in Kylo Ren. This left me feeling pretty depressed overall about the story. Whereas at the end of ESB I felt hopeful because I see signs Vader could care for Luke and they end calling one another father and son, the end of TLJ seems to be with the extinguishment of hope for Kylo though hope is renewed for the galaxy at large and the cause of the rebellion, and restoring the rule of the light through Rey.

Although Kylo is "conflicted" for much of the movie, I wasn't actually really clear about what his conflicts all center on. But maybe I need to watch again. It seemed more that other characters like Snoke and Rey would tell him about how he's conflicted.

Spoiler: Finn and Poe

Finn's arc is about committing himself to the cause of fighting the good fight. Finn's main priority in the beginning is Rey, though he is willing to help the Resistance if it will contribute to Rey getting back safe. His journey with Rose and DJ is a transformational one and he comes out of it committed to the Resistance to the extent that he is willing to sacrifice himself to destroy the FO's canon at the end of the movie. Rose in a way is the heart of the Resistance and is this sort of pure Resistance Inspiration character.

The part I liked best in Finn's arc was with DJ. DJ is kind of like Finn's dark side (just like how Kylo is Rey's dark side). And by meeting this in-the-flesh version of his own dark side, Finn is very repulsed by it and rejects it utterly. That plus overcoming his fear of Phasma (who represents his fear of the FO), has him ready to die for the Resistance cause.

It seems Finn is fighting because he hates the FO. It's similar to Poe's arc since Poe begins the movie getting the entire bomber squad killed to destroy the FO dreadnought. Finn and Poe learn the same lesson from Rose and Holdo respectively that "we win not by destroying what we hate, but by saving what we love."

Poe's arc was pretty ridiculous. He's arrogant and gets all his bombers killed and disobeys Leia's orders. He's kind of an *** to Holdo and goes behind her back and later mutinies. But you know, Leia and Holdo think he's just so cute...

Poe looks on in wonder as Leia explains how Holdo's plan wasn't what he thought and how she was more interested in preserving life than being a hero. Then it's some huge revelation for him when he sees Holdo isn't running but engaging head on with the Supremacy. This carries over to his revelation at the end about how Luke is stalling the FO to save them, so they shouldn't go run out to help Luke but save themselves! (Finn and Poe are both "dummies" in this.) Then Poe is rewarded in the end when he starts giving orders for them all without consulting Leia at first. She encourages him on, showing her faith in him is restored.

Poe's arc also kind of shows a window into what could have been Ben Solo's life that ties into the end of the movie when Kylo is on his knees and the dice fade from his hand. Kylo is the example of one who has chosen to destroy what he hates, something which the FO stands for as well.

Spoiler: Luke and Leia

Luke's arc is about overcoming failure in a story in which everyone fails at their mid-movie missions. He and Leia reunite and share their pain over the disaster of losing Ben Solo. Leia accepts that he is gone. Not sure there's much else to say.

But yeah when I reflect over things in the movie I just feel so sad. I think it's this nihilistic kind of sad that kind of kills my spirits.

 

I was really disappointed in that battle on the salt planet , with the AT-ATS and the speeders , well there wasn't one .

 

I can just picture the opening text scrawl to Episode X:

"STAR WARS"

"Episode X: Here We Go Again"

"Rey has disappeared. In her absence, the Ultimate Order (let by Supreme Emperor Leader Darth Kylo Ren) has risen from the ashes of the First Order, and will not stop until Rey, the TRUE Last Jedi, has been destroyed.

General Poe Dameron, leader of the Defiance, has uncovered evidence that the Ultimate Order is build a new secret weapon with enough destructive power to spell doom for the heroic band of Defiance members struggling to restore peace to the Galaxy.

Desperate to find his friend, Poe dispatches his ace pilot to the (insert new desert planet name here), where an old friend has uncovered evidence of Rey's whereabouts."

 

Nah, on that front they're actually correct.

 

I do agree to a certain extent, i dunno why they didn't just put R2 in certain scenes on the island just to give him a presence there as both him and chewy disappeared for alot if it.

I actually think its funny how they made R2 fly in the prequels and that gains abit of criticism by fans but then you got BB8 who seems to have all these abilities that allows him to save the day.

 

I ranted earlier but really it all comes down to this for me.

This is no longer a trilogy. It's literally 2 stand alone films that makes me not care much at all about the 3rd stand alone film. Never thought I'd say it but I think I'm over SW.

 

I still find it hard to believe they will kill off the skywalker bloodline because thats kinda depressing and i don't really know why you would need to do that to continue making movies?

 

I enjoyed the film. I can’t wait to see it again (and again). Watching any Star Wars movie at the cinema is an enjoyable experience for me. The Last Jedi is beautifully shot. There were parts that I loved; the opening sequence, the silence of the light speed collision, Yoda’s appearance, Luke’s humanism, the locations, the relentless sense of desperation, Snoke - and his power in the Force, the humour, the misdirection and twists, Luke’s “Force projection”, the trying new things, the new Force powers… However, 24 hours later I have disappointments that are creeping into the back of my mind…

Luke’s death was a wasted opportunity for me. I must admit that I’m not a fan of the direction they took him in. I desperately wanted to see a more bad ass Luke go full force with the..ahem Force against an enemy, I wanted to see the old master in combat, then sacrifice himself. I get why RJ wanted to kill off Luke but I disagree that it needed to happen in this episode and in the manner in which it happened. The Knights of Ren? I was expecting (and hoping for) them to make an appearance - unless the Pretorian guards were them? The executioner stormtroopers just felt unnecessary, Captain Phasma promised so much since her introduction in TFA but again, did very little and I have so many questions about Snoke! I wanted more of Snoke. I was enjoying his evilness and now I want answers. I feel his demise was a little clumsy and rushed, I would have cut some of the Canto Bight scenes in favour of more Supreme Leader. Rey’s parentage. Without her being connected in some way to one of the major characters I find it harder to connect with her. SW is about the Skywalkers. With Luke being killed off cheaply and Carrie passing away it seems that there’s only one left and he’s now the main villain! and finally, Admiral Ackbar. His death was glossed over. He should have been the one to sacrifice himself in the place of Admiral Holdo. A better way for Ackbar to die was to set a trap for the First Order and go out in a blaze of glory!

I wonder if TLJ was trying too hard to be something different. but one thing’s for sure, we’re all going to need to see Episode IX now and the pressure’s on JJ. The haters will want redemption of the SW franchise, the TLJ lovers will need to be as impressed with IX as they are with VIII and those of us somewhere between the two will hopefully have some answers to their questions (although I’m not holding my breath).

TLJ isn’t the perfect SW film many are saying it is but, gripes apart, I’ll enjoy watching it again.


All IMHO of course.

 

I'm staggered by how many Star Wars "fans" hate this movie.
It a good thing the opinion of said nerds are completely irrelevant to the box-office take, since the Average Joe seems to really like the film.

Anyway, i only have a couple minor complaints:

Even though I enjoyed both of them in the movie, the Porgs and new AT-ATs were essentially unnecessary to the plot and were there simply to sell toys.
Also, nobody said, "I have a bad feeling about this". I know BB-8 supposedly said it, but w/o an actual translation it wasn't there as far as I'm concerned.

 

The whole "bold new vision" stuff is just hipster bull****.

Everything in this film that is consider bold is just an inverse of something that happened in the OT. Seriously, at the end of the film it is the underdogs Rebels vs the powerful, and expanding Empire. The galaxy is in the same spot it was 30-31 years ago.

 

I thought the same once I completed my second viewing in order to make sure I wasn't missing anything. I mean, think about Attack of the Clones and The Empire Strikes Back in comparison to this film from a narrative perspective. The former two actually made the character interactions more complex. They added more tension. By the end of The Last Jedi, there is none of that. The good guys and the bad guys are solely divided into two camps with no real overlap in between. For something that's meant to be the best film since The Empire Strikes Back, it sure didn't leave me on the edge of my seat like The Empire Strikes Back did. In fact, it makes all of DJ's scenes where he goes off on tangents about the moral relativism of warfare seem like a bunch of pretentious crap that Rian put in as one last Hail Mary attempt at convincing the audience that they're watching something with narrative substance.

 

Despite a sizeable group of longtime fans, many of them here and myself included, who really didn't like TLJ, there seem to be a lot of people, both professional critics and regular fans, some of them also longtime, who really liked it, or at least didn't hate it. Beyond the fact that you're always going to have a mix of reactions to any SW film, which was the case with TFA, I sense that the divergence between those who loved it and those who didn't is far greater than it was the last time around. I mean, we're talking PT levels of divergence. And I think I know what explains this, and why Disney, Johnson, Kennedy & LFL decided to go with Johnson's story ideas and script, even though they know there would likely be very strong negative reaction to it from many if not most longtime fans of the franchise.

Disney is many things but it's not stupid. It's in the business of making money, not art. That doesn't preclude making great, even arty films, but that's not Disney's ultimate goal. Making maximal profits and keeping the brand alive and maximally profitable for years to come is its ultimate goal. And I think that they made the determination that the best way to make the most money off of SW for as long as they can was to shake things up and make the franchise more "relatable", to use the contemporary term, to wider audiences. Specifically, to make it more like Marvel and Jurassic and GotG and all of that comic book-type genre, and be more about effects and props and explosions and all that than about story, character and theme. I.e. they decided to dumb it down to the expectations of today's audiences. Plus, to satisfy the ironic hipster post-modern grad school esthete set, they decided to also make it darker, non-linear and convoluted.

I.e. they didn't make TLJ for fans, most of them at least. They made it for modern audiences and critics. The big money's with the latter, not the former. And Disney's after the big money, not fan service. It's a business, after all.

Now, you might say wait a sec, TFA was in many ways fan service, and it did HUGE box office, so why would they abandon that? Well, it was successful, but only because it was the first SW film in over a decade and there was so much pent-up desire for a new one, and expectation, that it was bound to do well no matter how it treated the franchise. Plus, whether or not you liked it, TFA was a well-made movie that delivered for both longtime and casual fans. But while the former would have stuck around for additional episodes that followed SW tradition, I think that Disney feared, perhaps not without cause given how many sci-fi/fantasy franchises there are today, and knowing what audiences are looking for these days, backed by tons of market research data, that sticking to tradition would retain the devoted fan base but lose wider audiences over time. And given how much they paid for the franchise, and how profit-driven Disney is, they were not about to take that risk. So they made the drastic strategic BUSINESS decision to take SW in a very different direction.

And in Johnson they found their man--it's no accident that he was chosen to produce the new trilogy, that will apparently be based on entirely new characters, storylines, eras, places and events in the SW universe. They're all in on the let's turn SW into something very different from what it's always been and into yet another generic sci-fi/fantasy franchise idea, and there's no going back--unless it backfires, profit-wise. And I think it will. Perhaps not right away, but eventually, what with a new SW coming out each year for the next decade or more, plus new live action and animated series, novels, comics, etc. By turning SW into just another sci-fi/fantasy franchise, they have destroyed what makes it special AND so profitable and long-lasting. And in doing so, they will eventually kill it. In fact I think they already have.

There's one thing I know, Star Wars HAS ended. The Force is no longer with it, or us.

 

Double post cos the site's being wonky.

 

I have loads of complaints, I think Luke was handled pretty well, and I did enjoy it, it's still Star Wars and I want to make peace with it. But everything else... they stripped away the mysticism that is part and parcel of Star Wars, and was continued in The Force Awakens... ok, but they didn't replace it with anything. It's just gone back to basics, the Resistance vs the First Order. I guess Rian Johnson wanted to let JJ come up with what The New Star Wars is, but... we're gonna end up with 3 films that attempt to re-define what Star Wars is, instead of advancing the plot in interesting new ways. JJ already did a good job of rebooting Star Wars, Rian didn't need to come in and stamp his mark on it. It felt like Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace. We're at the end of the second movie, but they're only just getting started... but it has to wrap up in the next film so it's going to be very odd.

Anyway, my three biggest complaints...

Phasma's scenes were terrible and she shouldn't have been in the film. Why did they build her character back up again in the comic and novel only for her to have a minor role in the film and get killed off? Finn and Phasma's grudge was barely elaborated on in The Force Awakens, and she already got her comeuppance from him, it didn't warrant another battle. She's such a good character in those books, what a waste. "I always knew you were scum" "Rebel scum" it was total fan fiction. They're Resistance for a start.

The constant jokes. I got tired of the Marvel style of joke delivery by Age of Ultron, now here it is in Star Wars, it's just not necessary. Star Wars has always had humour, The Force Awakens was funny enough, you don't need this stop-start style of delivery. Poe's call to Hux was ok at first but then Hux says "Can you hear me? Can he hear me?" Seriously? They're the First Order, it's their biggest ship, it's just stupid, it went on so long. It was in character for Poe, but not Hux reacting like that. They made a mockery of Hux, and Phasma, and the First Order really doesn't feel like much of a threat. I didn't hate all the jokes, it was just the delivery. Like Luke "Jakku, well that really is nowhere" it just felt so knowing, veering into self-parody.

I was fine with them throwing out the Star Wars rulebook, but I wish they'd gone further. Kill Leia, kill Threepio, kill Artoo, kill Chewie, destroy the Falcon, get rid of the Resistance and just leave Rey, Finn and Poe up against Kylo, Hux and the First Order. I'm really bored of the Resistance/Rebellion and I don't know why they reset the film back to the classic Rebellion vs Empire formula that The Force Awakens already did. The film did all this stuff but ultimately they are back at the same point they were at the end of The Force Awakens. They could have had more of a grey area with regards to Kylo, but by the end he was back to his old self pretty much. Everyone praises it for taking risks but it didn't really, it put everything back by the end.

 

Can we talk about the two nitwits Rose and Finn for a moment? Can you imagine had Leia acted like them had she somehow made it to Tatooine in ANH? She goes to the cantina to find Obi Wan and after a first failed attempt gets distracted and decides to start a riot. Gets thrown in jail, turns to Captain Antilles and goes, "Well at least we made the slave children happy". I think Captain Antilles would punch her in the face ptimcess or not LOL!

 

Can we talk about the two nitwits Rose and Finn for a moment? Can you imagine had Leia acted like them had she somehow made it to Tatooine in ANH? She goes to the cantina to find Obi Wan and after a first failed attempt gets distracted and decides to start a riot. Gets thrown in jail, turns to Captain Antilles and goes, "Well at least we made the slave children happy". I think Captain Antilles would punch her in the face ptimcess or not LOL!

 

I have no complaints. I loved it. It's the best SW equal to ESB.

 

Well said. I only disagree with TFA part of you post. I thought immediately Disney went into "erase Lucas era" mode with TFA. All the films since ROTS have been a Hollywood algorithm on how to get the largest number of viewers. JJ was tasked with rebooting/yet not rebooting Star Wars, hence TFA is almost a direct copy of ANH. That locked in OT fans and casual movie goers. RJ was to wipe the slate clean as much as he could. IX will be he kickoff fora whole "new" Star Wars.

I also agree with the people who said that saying "this is a, bold new direction" is a total cop out. Just slapping the name "Star Wars" on something doesn't make it Star Wars.
At what point does changing Star Wars so much that it no longer resembles Star Wars become a factor? I think that time has started and is at least more than halfway. The decisiveness betweens fans is at a near high. I feel the division is going to be complete after IX. I think the last holdouts are waiting for the conclusion before finally making a decision.

 

First I'll say that I did for the most part enjoy the film. Still haven't hated a SW film yet...and with that being said I must also add that this film also dissapointed me greatly. My compmaints that hurt this film.

1. Luke contemplaiting killing Kylo in his sleep. Never will accept this no matter how it's explained.

2. Luke giving up. Nope.

3. Liea flying through space. Concept as cool but exicution was poor.

4. No explanation on who Snoke is, how he came to power & created First Order or how he turned Ben. I'm cool with how he died just not these questions answered.

5. The style of humor. For me it felt slapstickish most of the time & out of place.

These five things for me place TLJ on the same level as TPM & AOTC...good but flawed films. 7/10

 

phatdude1138

JJ will course correct some and make Episode IX more in tone with past SW flicks. It will be much more TFA then TLJ. Do not believe a word by anyone on here who thinks Disney likes all thus controversy. They were fine with some but to the point the audiences are split 50/50? No way. Bob Iger was heavily involved in TFA (for him) but let KK and Rian do their own show in TLJ. Expect him to be more heavily involved in Episode IX.

 

Pretty much everything after: A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away... and the opening crawl.

 

He said:

JJ Abrams says Star Wars Episode 9 won't "revel" in the past: "We have to go elsewhere" "We have to take them places that they haven't gone."


"When the opportunity presented itself to finish a story that we had begun with these new characters, to tell the last chapter of their story, it felt like there was a chance to do it in a way where we could go beyond, and do better than we did in Seven," Abrams said.

Speaking about fixing some of the issues people may have had with The Force Awakens, Abrams said he has learned quite a lot since directing Episode VII. "I learned so much in that movie and I saw that this was a chance to sort of realize something that we hadn't quite achieved – and part of that was it was simply the beginning of these new characters and their story," Abrams said.

Now, the filmmaker is ready to take some of the lessons he's learned to help make Episode IX a finale fans will be thrilled with. "The opportunity to sort of take what we had learned, to take the feeling of who these characters are and what they are and give them a final chapter that felt in the spirit of what we begun?" Abrams said. "It was too delicious of an opportunity to pass up."

 

Disagree with the ROTS bit. It was bound to be more.."marketable" because it's what the Fans have wanted since TPM. It's the "darth Vader moment" everyone has anticipated for. Still, it made a plethora of bold decisions not many expected(love being Anakins turn, Padme losing the will to live and then some).

I do agree that TPM and AOTC were possibly the most riskiest SW films and it does make sense. He had a ton more creative freedom with TPM and AOTC(said so by himself). ROTS was the film he struggled on the most despite starting the script right before the end of AOTC productionz

 

Luke02 I want to believe you. It would be nice to see KK and RJ have some repercussions from this film but I doubt it will happen. The reason being is the number one driver: $$$ was achieved. They will defend themselves by saying "Bob, seriously? We made you $200million, shut up." Money talks.

Also seeing the critics giving it 93% yet fans give it 5% is also disconcerting. Its obvious that the critics had an incentive to rate it that high.