The *Official* Love Story Thread [v2.0]

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by RidingMyCarousel, Oct 23, 2002.

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  1. Obi-Can Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2002
    star 3
    Well it's unfortunate that you don't believe the virgin birth aspect of the story, because that is what George Lucas did intend with this story. He based his films on mythology, and although Christianity is the most widely read story that speaks of a virgin birth- such stories have been around for centuries and retold in many different cultures. This is just his way of including this mythological aspect into the film. .

    I don?t believe that was what George intended, I think he intended to entertain us and complicate the plot a little. The OS (which by any stretch of the imagination is not canon) doesn?t state definitetively either way, so for now it?s just another plot point that we?ll just have to wait and see. For all we know could be that one of those fan-boy twists might come true, you know where Palpatine is Anakin?s father. Mythology is one way to analyze Star Wars, just as psychology is a valid method. I prefer psychology myself, I?m a realist so it?s more meaningful and relatable for me.

    Anakin was conceived by the Force and is the Chosen One from an ancient Prophecy. His special birth heralds that fact, and marks the fact that the Force is unbalanced. .

    That?s if you buy the Chosen One prophecy, I don?t. Well I may but I don?t think it?s Anakin, if anyone then Luke. That whole unbalanced force thing doesn?t make sense to me, but if Anakin is the chosen one then the prophecy seems to want chaos and mass destruction of the galaxy as well as the destruction of the JedI. It makes more sense that Luke is the Chosen One and brings peace and the dawn of a new JedI order to the galaxy. Luke seems to be what?s good for the galaxy.

    Classixboy

    LOL!!! Norman Bates?

    Well I agree he?s got some issues with women or lack thereof in his life, but I see his problems being with more the Father figure. I believe this directly stems from the powerlessness he feels from his slavery on Tatooine and then is exacerbated by the very disciplined life of the JedI for which he is so unsuitable for.

    PLJ:
    I don't see Anakin as having a mother complex. I firmly believe that Anakin's problems come from the fact of his birth. He is half-god and half-human. I don't know a lot about particular mythologies, but I do know that usually the half-gods tend to take after their human side more than their deity self.

    I don?t see Anakin as being at all half God/half man. If anything he is an example of extreme humanity with all the good and bad that that implies. The JedI to me or the half-gods in the story, they hold the ultimate power and wisdom. The problem is that Anakin strives for their power, but doesn?t have the discipline or wisdom to use that power wisely. He also doesn?t understand that true power comes from wisdom.

    PLJ:
    According to the O/S it will be his blinding hatred of Obi-Wan that will keep Anakin alive after his fall. It is only through raw emotional power that keeps him alive when his body has failed and has been destroyed.

    Interesting , but why would he hate Obi-Wan? I don?t see his hatred of Obi-Wan being demonstrated in the OT, it?s more like envy or a need to prove himself. It is quite a common theme in young men needing to prove themselves or outdo their fathers, a sort of coming of age rite.


  2. classixboy Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 4
    Watch out! I?m gonna get a little academic now.

    The above posts by The_Abstract, PLJ, and GunraysLawyer have got me thinking more about Anakin as god/man and the parallels with Hercules. As much as this is a mythological interpretation of Anakin, it has much to do with the love story in AOTC, so I don?t feel bad about posting it here.

    This reading of the mythological aspect of Anakin and the love story is about the problematic ambiguities between the masculine and the feminine and how Anakin?s journey is in part an attempt to resolve those ambiguities.

    Herakles, the ultra-butch hero, is paradoxically marked by two ultra-feminine aspects. These feminine aspects are identified by the scholar Nicole Loraux as ?the belly? and ?the veil.? In Greek and Roman art, Herakles is typically depicted with a paunch belly (weird!), and in one story about Herakles, the hero is given a woman?s gown as a gift by the goddess Athena (also very weird! ? what would Herakles do with a dress?!).

    Loraux explains that the belly is symbolic not only of Herakles? erotic appetites but also in a wider sense of the feminine belly that ?brings the children of man into the world? (30), a constant reminder of the hero?s ambiguous origins (was he the son of a mortal man, or the son of Zeus?). Similarly, the veiled dress given to Herakles by Athena is ?at once a revelation of weakness hidden in strength and a chance for strength to circumscribe the feminine contained within it? (39).

    Ok, now I know that Anakin does not have a paunch belly and he doesn?t wear a dress.

    But, as I see it, Shmi and Padme are Anakin?s ?belly? and ?veil? respectively. Shmi is a symbol of the mysterious fatherlessness of Anakin?s birth. Padme, on the other hand, represents a duality in her own right. She is the positive power of love and, ultimately, salvation ?- a way for Anakin to resolve the problematic attachments which have resulted from the conflict of his birth. Unfortunately, though, Padme must first become a dark ?shroud? before she can become the positively symbolic ?veil.? The great tragedy is that Anakin?s salvation is brought about only after a long dark journey.

    But Anakin?s attachment to Shmi, the symbolic ?belly,? is ultimately also part of the process towards salvation. If PLJ?s theory is correct, then by plunging into the dark side in his bloody attempt to save his mother, Anakin opens the doorway to restoring balance to the Force (hence the ghostly voice of Qui Gon heard by Yoda). In this regard, Anakin is truly a liminal hero, but he must cross his threshold first by suffering ?- a common characteristic of the god/man (i.e. Herakles? twelve labors, Christ?s death on the cross).

    What then can be said about Anakin?s relationship to the feminine? I think that Loraux?s conclusion about Herakles is appropriate also for Anakin: we have to realize ?that the feminine element is part of the ambivalence of virile strength, and that it serves in many ways to amplify that strength? (48). It?s the kind of paradox typical of myth: Shmi and Padme simultaneously hinder Anakin?s progress AND allow him to complete his journey.

    Quotations are taken from Nicole Loraux?s essay, ?Herakles: the Super-Male and the Feminine,? in Before Sexuality: the Construction of Erotic Experience in the Ancient Greek World (Halperin, Winkler, and Zeitlin, eds.; Princeton University Press: 1990).

    There?s much more that could also be said about Herakles? wives: first Megara, and then Hebe. In a fit of madness brought on by Hera, Herakles kills Megara, his mortal wife. Only later in life when he reaches Olympus does he take Zeus? daughter Hebe as his new wife. I?m not quite sure, though, how this would relate to Anakin.
  3. The_Abstract Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2002
    star 4
    classixboy

    Excellent points....that could probably be applied to PLJ's observations on the Vergence. Herkales's journey parallels the Buddhist construct of the Wheel of Time and Suffering.


    Jung definitely has a thing or two to say about feminine influences on the male psyche. I don't think I'll deal with that in my next post though. I'm staying more focused on modern cultural influences.
  4. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    I was looking up the dictionary definitions of 'convergence' and 'virgin birth' as they relate to Anakin and I had a revelation.

    I think, based on what we know from TPM, the OT and AOTC, that Anakin was not a result of a 'convergence' in the Force, HE is the convergence of the force.

    Let's look at the evidence: He is very powerful with the force, he is (right now) on the light or good side of the force, but is slipping toward the dark side, then he comes back to the light side at the end of ROTJ.

    Here's the dictionary references: converge: to tend to one point, to incline and approach nearer together.

    convergence: State of converging

    And, assuming we all accept the normal definition of 'virgin':

    Virgin birth: Parthenogensis or the Doctrine that Jesus was miraculously begotten (conceived) by God and born of a virgin mother.

    While Campbell touches on this in his book on mythology, he goes on to state that the hero need only have a miraculous birth. Buddha had such a birth, as no one would have claimed that his mother was a virgin, as she was a married woman at the time, but his birth was miraculous in that he caused his mother no pain during the delivery and he walked soon after birth and lotus flowers sprang up in his footsteps.

    Hercules and the other Greek and Roman heroes likewise had 'miraculous' births, being born of women and fathered by Zeus, Apollo, or one of the other male gods. Achilles, however, was born of the sea nymph, Thetis (daughter of Posideon, god of the sea) and a mortal man, likewise Aneas, one of the suvivors of Troy, whose mother was Aphrodite (Venus to the Romans).

    The Greek hero who slew the Medusa was born of a mortal woman whose father had locked her in a chamber underground to protect her from human men. Zeus fell upon her in a shower of gold.

    None of these claimed virgin birth, but they were still heroes.

    Lady Sami
  5. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    I think, based on what we know from TPM, the OT and AOTC, that Anakin was not a result of a 'convergence' in the Force, HE is the convergence of the force.

    I never thought of that ?[face_plain]

    But then again I always thought it was Paly.
  6. Obi-Can Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2002
    star 3
    So Sami,

    How would this difference change the way we look at Anakin, and more importantly how would it change "Chosen One" prophecy?

  7. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    Well, since I don't think the Force or the midiclorians are his 'father,' since the force is created BY life and not the other way around, I think we can look at Anakin as a very strong force user with tremendous potential for either good or bad.

    In the Greek myths, there was usually an attempt to thwart the prophecy for a particular hero. For example, Achilles' mother knew he would die at Troy, so she asked him to hide with the handmaidens and he put on women's clothss. The ruse was discovered and he went to Troy, where he was killed.

    Likewise, Oedipus, whose destiny was to kill his father and marry his mother, was given to a slave to take away and kill. The slave didn't kill him, but instead raised him as his own child. The prophecy could not be denied or changed, and Oedipus made his way to the capital where he killed his father and married his mother, all unknowingly on his part.

    Lucas may follow this pattern with the rest of the story. Anakin may decide to avoid his 'fate' by leaving the Jedi order, not realizing that that will cause him to fulfill his destiny of bringing balance to the force.

    While I'm not going to debate the morality of the Tusken slaughter, I do believe that what has been overlooked is that this is where Anakin first tapped into the Dark Side. It made him powerful enough to wipe out the entire village.

    It is touched upon briefly in the book and NOT AT ALL in the movie, unless you count the very brief scene in Yoda's meditation chamber.

    We all know Anakin wants to be the most powerful Jedi ever. The dark side is one way of achieving that. His experimentation of the Dark Side will no doubt continue.

    As Yoda said to Luke, once you start down the path of the Dark Side, forever will it dominate your destiny.

    One other quick note on the love story, no, I did not want to see a 20th century type love story with all sorts of sex, I wanted to see a courtly love story, along the likes of King Arthur or even Ivanhoe, where you knew the two people were in love and did not have to depend on barely seen glimpses and quick sighs, but on strong declarations of love, love so strong the two people involved didn't care if kingdoms fell or even if they themselves died, as long as they could be together. You knew that their love for each other was so strong, they would risk ruin for it. And often, they did.

    Courtly love was forbidden love, and brought its own peril.

    I am reminded of a scene from a movie where Robert Wagner played Prince Valiant and Janet Leigh played his lady love. As he rode off to battle, she ran after him screaming, "If you die, I won't marry anybody else." And she meant it.

    Lady Sami
  8. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    Courtly love was forbidden love, and brought its own peril.

    I am reminded of a scene from a movie where Robert Wagner played Prince Valiant and Janet Leigh played his lady love. As he rode off to battle, she ran after him screaming, "If you die, I won't marry anybody else." And she meant it.


    I could some how see that happening. But the one thing is I have never seen that movie. Is it any good?

    You also bring up a lot of good points. But as long as Paly is not Anakin's father :p then ever thing will be fine.

    I would like to thinkwe never find out about his father, or that he just does nto have one. I also what you are saying I see some of. Well Luke was to kill hsi fahter he was able to save him. Only to have him die any ways do to what Paly was doing.

    So what I can't wait to see is what Paly is going to say to Anakin. And how he will get Padme out of the way.
  9. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    anidanami124,

    Yes, it's a good movie. It's on the late show or sometimes on American Movie Classics or Turner Classic movies.

    It's either called "The Black Knight," the one that came out in the 50's, or "Prince Valiant," again the one that was made in the '50's. It's been so long since I've seen it, I don't remember the exact title.

    No, I don't think Palpy is Anakin's father. I think the question is open to speculation, tho.

    Lady Sami
  10. Obi-Can Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2002
    star 3
    In the Greek myths, there was usually an attempt to thwart the prophecy for a particular hero. For example, Achilles' mother knew he would die at Troy, so she asked him to hide with the handmaidens and he put on women's clothss. The ruse was discovered and he went to Troy, where he was killed.

    The different stories of mythology are interesting but I think they are too intricate and epic for the likes of Star Wars. Now I know that sounds sacrilicious, but it seems that though George may have used these stories as a framework, he abandoned them along the way. For example the prophecy is mentioned as is the virginal birth in one line in one movie and never again explored. It seems like they are just red herrings planted to throw the fans off.

    In mythological stories and epics the prophecies and forewarned destinies are the main themes of the story arcs, here they are briefly mentioned by two dead characters in one movie.

    If anything Star Wars seems to be no more than a basic story of the fall and rise of a once great kingdom and order told in terms of a few key characters. I don't believe a predetermined destiny or prophecy is going to be the main protagonist or theme since George has already told us that Anakin's fall is due to the decisions he makes in life.

    I can see where analyzing Star Wars using mythology is fun, but it seems to be an over-reach. It's more in lines with the Samurai story arcs than ancient mythology.

    I also see your point about courtly love being what George is going for. However it fails on these terms. Courtly love is celibate at all times and never crosses the line to carnal love. Anakin makes no bones about his feeling for Padme, they are always carnal. The failure to me wasn't in content, but in execution. Either spend more time developing it or less time and cut out all dialogue and make it visuals with music only.
  11. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    Obi-Can,

    Courtly love was also very often only a 'fantasy' in the mind of the lover and oftentimes, the beloved was never even seen in person.

    I think GL mistook 'formal love' as courtly love. Formal love is like writing love poems to your beloved, sending flowers and candy, and making silly speeches ala Cyrano de Bergerac and Roxanne. Of course, Cyrano loved Roxanne, but she loved some other guy, who asked Cyrano to write his speeches for him so he would sound good to Roxanne!

    The Republic is a more formal time, is it not?

    Lady Sami
  12. Obi-Can Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2002
    star 3
    Yes a more formal time, again for what were shown. Dex seems to be a down to earth type and in keeping with the OT style. So perhaps it's not the times but the echelon of characters you are following. Meaning, it's because the PT is more of a political drama being told in the realm of the galactic senate and the Jedi order. Whereas the OT is told from the perspective of a farmer, a smuggler and rebellion leader.

    I suppose if flowery dialogue just didn't seem so out of place with the rest of the dialogue it wouldn't have been so bad. The fact is Hayden just sounded ridiculous spewing those words. Anyway, flowery and formal aren't the same thing.

    Not to beat the perverbial dead horse, but let me kick it a few times; why is it they speak so normally in the meadow but then Anakin suddenly speaks like a bad Shakespearean actor in the fireplace scene? Dialogue needs to be consistent in order to draw a complete picture of a character, if in one scene he's using big words and in the next he uses one syllable words the audience notices. The only time the flowery formal speach is used is in the Fireplace scene and the balcony scene.

    I do believe he was going for a 30's romantic style, but like other stylistic movies the style needs to be consistent throughout the entire film.





  13. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    Obi-Can,

    Yes, I would agree that the dialogue needs to be consistent. It kept pulling me out of the movie. The senators are formal with each other and the Jedi, but then the rest of the movie, with the few exceptions you noted, are in what I call 'normal-speak,' or just plain talk, none of that mi'lady stuff.
    It was jarring.

    I don't know what GL means by a 30's romance. I've seen lots of 1930's movies on the late show and the romances didn't look anything like the love story in AOTC. They were goofy and light-hearted, for the most part. Not at all like what we see in this movie.

    GL has said that Anakin's fireplace speech is supposed to show an awkward teen who doesn't know what to say. Well, how come he sounds like he spent a few nights at the Naboo library copying and memorizing a 'formal speech' out of some book on romance?

    The awkward part could have been shown any number of ways that would have worked better.

    Lady Sami

  14. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    Well, you can hardly blame him. Where was Anakin going to get courting lessons from? Yoda and Ki-Adi-Mundi?

    My problem with the love story was that there was not enough time devoted to it and therefore it was not convincing to some viewers. They could have cut the arena fight and the Obi-Wan/Buckethead fight in half, and they could have left in the scenes with Padme's family--which shows Padme gazing out onto the patio where Anakin is standing.

    I did think the meadow scene was the best one in the love story. But I don't think Hayden sounded "ridiculous" spouting the fireplace scene lines. I thought he looked like an awkward teen with strong emotions--which was exactly what he was portraying.

    Mythology is one way to analyze Star Wars, just as psychology is a valid method. I prefer psychology myself, I?m a realist so it?s more meaningful and relatable for me.

    Maybe--but I've got an hour-long George Lucas/Bill Moyers interview called "The Mythology of Star Wars." In it, Lucas talks about how his mentor was Joseph Campbell--author of The Power of Myth. He also says, "I'm trying to tell an old myth in a new way." I think Lucas intended to base Star Wars on mythology, and the spiritual aspect of it has always been what fascinated me the most.
  15. Obi-Can Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2002
    star 3
    My problem with the love story was that there was not enough time devoted to it and therefore it was not convincing to some viewers. They could have cut the arena fight and the Obi-Wan/Buckethead fight in half, and they could have left in the scenes with Padme's family--which shows Padme gazing out onto the patio where Anakin is standing.

    I agree, it seemed almost like an afterthought when it should have been the main theme. You could also see the editing was poorly done IMO. The scene with Padme and her family made a much sweeter story and filled in the blanks. However, the first kiss was in the wrong place, it happens just after Padme disses him in the throne room. I was asking myself where did that came from. The first kiss should have happened in the meadow scene. I also think that less is sometimes more, less dialogue and more visuals with overlay of music showing romantic scenes of them in deep conversations and holding hands etc...

    I disagree about the fight on Kamino that was my favorite part. I think I'd cut the factory scene, which really served no purpose but to show more action and doesn't go with Padme's speech about let me do the talking I'm not interested in starting a war. From that she should just have walked into the Lair and demanded Obi-Wan's release. Probably a pacing issue.
  16. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    I also think that less is sometimes more, less dialogue and more visuals with overlay of music showing romantic scenes of them in deep conversations and holding hands etc...

    Definitely...it should have been done that way.

    I think there was a kiss originally filmed in the meadow scene and I was rather pissed that it got left out. It should have stayed in.

    The first kiss was awkward but I think maybe it was supposed to be, as Anakin is unsure around Padme, and Padme is trying not to give in to her feelings for him.

    They could have cut that droid factory scene. You're right, there was no purpose for it other than more action and maybe some 3PO comic relief. What would have been better would have been to leave out that scene and leave in the scenes in which Padme goes to Dooku and demands Obi-Wan's release, and the scene in which Padme and Anakin are "tried" (if you can call it that--they're sentenced to death with no hearing).

    All that being said--I thought another great love-story scene was the dinner table scene, which showed Padme and Anakin engaged in casual conversation, a few giggles here and there, Anakin trying to impress Padme by Force-floating the fruit, her biting it in mid-air... *sigh* [face_love]
  17. Obi-Can Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2002
    star 3
    Definitely, the transport has a very natural feel just like the meadow scene as well as the cut family scene. What I felt didnt work for the two characters was when they went to the more formal, flowery dialogue. More so for Anakin than Padme, formal on her works better.

    The fireplace scene, worked as far as tone but the dialogue was so unexpected and different than the rest of their scenes together that I as a movie goer was thrown off. It made me uncomfortable, but not in the way that I think it was meant to. Their body language was right on, he being totally into her and you could see the desire seething under the surface and her frightened by that and her own feelings. But the words belied these emotions, they gave the impression that Anakin was trying to talk her into his bed by slickness rather than true feelings.

    I hadn't liked how Anakin acted on Coruscant but was starting to warm up to him with his boyish charm on the transport and the meadow scene and then here comes the slick leering adolescent again. Just like the sand talk, slick rather than honest. It just didnt sound like words that Anakin would say. Perhaps it's the sexual undertones of everything Anakin does on Naboo that is so distracting, you don't expect that in a Star Wars movie.

    I found his angel comment to Padme when he was a boy totally unsophisticated and niave and totally charming. It's his attempts at playing her that turned me off. I really dont understand the purpose of it from George's stand point, unless it was to show Anakin as more sexually obsessed rather than love obsessed. It also bothered me that he never said the words,I Love You. He says he wants her but nothing else, it's implied but never declared.

    I also think that Anakin is proposing an affair rather than marriage in the Fireplace scene. What do you think?
  18. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    He may be...but I don't think that's what he really wants. I think he just wants her any way he can have her, and he feels desperate because she has told him she won't marry him.

    It bothered me that he never says "I love you", but I never doubted that he did. His actions said that. I just wanted to hear him say it.

    Another favorite love story scene, one that was just sweet, was Anakin on the reek telling Padme to jump; she does and kisses his cheek--a kiss that says "Thank you," "Good luck", and "I love you" all at the same time. *sigh* [face_love]

    The transport scene was good, and very natural, and I think the dinner scene at the lake retreat with the "aggressive negotiations" quip was good, too.

    Maybe it's just a difference in how we saw the films, but I didn't really see Anakin as "slick". I saw him as not knowing what the hell he was doing. I didn't really think he was trying to get her in bed--I think he just wanted her to love him.

    When I think "slick", I think Steve Stifler on "American Pie".
  19. Obi-Can Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2002
    star 3
    Well perhaps his version of trying to be slick then.

    I liked the little kiss as well, showed true honest affection. That was what I wanted more of, the little affectionate gestures not the grand flowery speaches. That 1.5 second scene spoke louder about their feelings than the sand scene and the Fireplace scene rolled together. I just dont think George is good at romantic dialogue. I'm still conflicted about his intent, did he mean to show true love and fail or is their a more sinister reason behind the way it plays out. I'm just going to have to wait for Episode III to figure it out. For now I'm taking it at face value and buying that it's meant to be true love.

    As far as that aggressive negotiation comment I thought it was out of place in the life and death struggle they were in, especially seeing the other Jedi dieing all around them. Hey, what do you expect, I'm the biggest Jedi lover around, as you know.
  20. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    That was what I wanted more of, the little affectionate gestures not the grand flowery speaches. That 1.5 second scene spoke louder about their feelings than the sand scene and the Fireplace scene rolled together. I just dont think George is good at romantic dialogue.

    Stop the presses! I agree with Obi-Can on something! ;) :D

    I didn't need the speeches either, and gestures would have been better.

    As far as his intent--there is no doubt in my mind that it was supposed to be true love, for this reason: Anakin is saved through his son--the son he and Padme had together. I think it would cheapen Luke and Leia's role in the story if their father didn't really love their mother. Also, part of Anakin's problem with the Jedi was that they would not allow him to love, and I think that is meant to be seen as a flaw, not a good thing.

    But I could be proven wrong in Episode III.
  21. DarthBreezy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2002
    star 6
    *sigh*

    I've always clung to the belief that Anakin (the man) love his wife and only became bitter and twisted after her death... Luke and Leia were concieved in love, and it's the fact that Luke embodies the purity of that love which brings him back...
    [face_love]
  22. Obi-Can Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2002
    star 3
    By saying sinister, I don't want to imply that it's not love. I mean by that perhaps George uses flaws in their relationship to break them apart. When Anakin doesnt declare his love, this could be seen as him holding back part of himself he's not totally committing to the relationship. This would be natural if he's not willing to give up being a Jedi for her, it's not a total commitment. However I think she would give up being a senator for him.

    Funny enough I think as hard a time as I had buying that Padme was in love with Anakin at the end I felt she was more committed to him then he to her. I got the impression, don't ask me where, that he resented her for making it so hard on him during their courtship. Could be that this resentment and lack of total commitment could plant some ugly seeds in their relationship, especially in his mind.

    I for one think Padme will stick with him to the bitter end, or until she sees that he's endangering her children. I can't say that I see Anakin doing the same, I think he will constantly question her love and be a very very jealous husband, the kind that's even jealous of the time she dedicates to her job as senator. Again these are only impressions I got from watching the movie 30 something times.

  23. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    I've seen the movie that many times, too, Obi-Can--and got an entirely different perception.

    I got the impression, don't ask me where, that he resented her for making it so hard on him during their courtship.

    Have no idea where you got that impression. The only place where he's fighting with her is in the fireplace scene--and that's not fighting, that's begging; and in the droid hangar. "I've given up trying to argue with you." That has more to do with Padme's insistence on going to help Obi-Wan than it does their courtship.

    I definitely don't see Anakin as being a jealous husband. I think his love for Padme is paralleled with his love for Shmi--and Palpatine will use that love against him, to turn him to the Dark Side, by making him believe that turning is the only way he can save her. This comes from the lines, "Someday I will be the most powerful Jedi ever, I promise you. I will even learn to stop people from dying." And, "I wasn't strong enough to save you, Mom. But I promise, I will never fail you again."

    I think Anakin and Padme will neither one know what happened to the other one. As far as hiding the children--I think that's from Palpatine, not Anakin. ("To protect you from the Emperor, you were hidden from your father when you were born.") Palpatine is hunting down all the Jedi, and with Luke and Leia being Force-sensitive, he would want them as well. ("The Emperor knew that if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him." Him meaning the Emperor--not Anakin. And the offspring were a threat to the Emperor--the son saved his father.)
  24. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    I'm going to back up a few posts and respond to the family scenes.

    The culture of the GFFA (and by culture, I mean the accepted social norms and not art) seems to be poorly defined, which I attribute to GL's weakness as a writer.

    In the GFFA, the Jedi have been around for many thousands of years, so the fact that they don't allow attachment and that love is forbidden would be understood by everyone in the galaxy.

    Therefore, the statement made by Padme's sister Sola would never have been uttered. It would be like a devout Catholic bringing home a guy who is studying to be a priest and being asked by her sister if he is her boyfriend. No, no, no!

    Culture defines the roles played by members of the society and the prohibitions of certain actions by or toward members of that culture according to their status in that culture, i.e., priest, knight, queen, king, etc.

    While there are exceptions to the rule, they are very rare and are strongly frowned upon by other members of that particular culture.

    If GL meant for this to be 'true' love, he would not have stated that it is 'courtly love' and that the pair will 'pay for their mistakes' in the next film.

    I believe that Anakin will leave Padme as he is corrupted by the power of the Dark Side. He has a strong desire for power (I will be the most powerful Jedi ever, I promise you!) and that desire will outweigh his love for Padme.

    He will see the Dark Side as being his means to obtaining that power. Padme may leave him as she sees him becoming ever darker. As Leia said, she remembers her mother as being very sad.

    Just my two cents worth.

    Lady Sami
  25. Obi-Can Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2002
    star 3
    Good Points Sami,

    About that comment by Padme's sister, perhaps that's one of the reasons it was cut out. Most of the time it seems that George is making this up as he goes along, you know that the plot isn't fully fleshed out yet just a general outline and the limitations of the OT. He makes comments and then seems to refute them with his next film.

    Anyway getting back to the point. I think they love each other, though as you know I don't think it's sold very well on screen. I just think it's more being in love rather than a lasting love built on sound foundations. Sometimes that lustfull being in love works out and people stay together for decades, but not often.

    Lets face it our couple has about as many obstacles as anyone could have. They are in many ways the antithesis of each other, just as Anakin and Obi-Wan are. Political Philosophy, Goals(Padme wants to raise a family out of the limelight whereas Anakin craves power and acclaim), their natures (she's passive and he's violent), backgrounds (she's an aristocrat and he's an ex-slave). These differences will make it almost impossible to last, not counting other outside influences that seem determined to tear them apart.

    The mistakes that I think George is talking about is; 1. Her encouragement of him to rebel against the jedi 2. Their secret love affair and marriage 3. His killing spree 4. Her denial and absolution of this act 5. His jealousy of Obi-Wan and inability to take responsibility for his own actions 6. Their shared recklessness. I think these are the symptoms of a flawed relationship, they seem to encourage and inspire each other negatively rather than positively. This behavior will only get worse as time goes by or cause one or both to turn away from the other to avoid the negative results that their partnership seems to cause.

    I truly feel that Anakin's inherent possessive and clinging nature will yield intense jealousy in their relationship. He seems to be especially susceptible to this emotion when dealing with Obi-Wan. Therefore his more intense feelings for Padme will lead to even more intense jealousy in regards to her. Afterall jealousy is envy and fear, he'll be envious of the time she dedicates to anything else (like the senate) and fearful of losing her. I don't think Anakin deep down believes he deserves her and I do think her initial rejection of him will not be easily forgotten.



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