The *Official* Love Story Thread [v2.0]

So do I DB so do I.

 

I'm so glad that this thread is off to a good start. As I noted earlier, I think that the fireplace scene resembles passages from Troilus and Criseyde, but I'm certain that the scene is drawing on a variety of other references as well. (I sometimes get a Joan Crawford or Bette Davis effect out of that dress,very 30's-esque)

Could it be that the reason the scene can seem uncomfortable is from the lighting and the shots? At various points, the camera goes very close in to Padme as she squirms backward,which almost makes us squirm as well. There are definitely some voyeuristic moments in the scene. Plus the dark quality and fire hints at forbidden passion and lust (one of the seven deadlies) and of the creative force of the universe--think Stravinsky's Rite of Spring.

I think that it's supposed to be an emotionally intense scene, filled with the primitive nature of love. Both A/P are young and relatively naive and this sudden escalation from meadow frolic to adult passions is daunting to say the least.

As for the love pledge, I didn't really find it shocking. I had more fun with the line, "I've been dying a little bit each day since you came back into my life." I started snickering to myself when I heard that because in Elizabethan/Renaissance poetry, "dying" refers to a specific aspect of the sexual experience.

 

"I've been dying a little bit each day since you came back into my life." I started snickering to myself when I heard that because in Elizabethan/Renaissance poetry, "dying" refers to a specific aspect of the sexual experience.


Db's sleaziest voice
Ahh yes... the little death....


*snicker*


"I die a little any, time I have some money"

Gabriel in The Prophecy 3

 

First off, kudos to Riding for restarting this thread and setting the boundaries--hail to my fellow Charlotte Separatist! *bows down*

Also, I'm glad to see that this thread is going so well, and that people are able to disagree without being disagreeable.

I'm too tired to post much about what I thought of the love story, but generally, I liked it. My one complaint is that it was way too short. George should have just made a four-hour movie and left in all the deleted scenes. Titanic was three and a half hours, and wasn't nearly as good a movie, but it still grossed several million. Fellowship of the Ring was also three and a half hours.

My favorite love story scene was definitely the picnic scene--the most natural I've seen in any SW movie, with the characters and actors just relaxing and being themselves.

I did like the fireplace scene. I didn't find Anakin "creepy" at all, just intense--and I think the intensity probably does scare Padme, not because she's afraid he'll hurt her, but because she's afraid he'll hurt himself.

I wasn't shocked when she told him she loved him--I just thought she should have done it sooner; I think she knew it the first time she saw him again, and was just holding back due to their careers. With them being led to their deaths, there was no need to pretend anymore.

I don't remember who said it, but Padme jumping onto the reek and then kissing Anakin was probably my favorite moment in the entire film.

 

This is a very interesting thread! A lot being said about these love scenes quite surprise me. I have a love/hate/despise/obsessive (as the mood takes me) interest in Ep.2's love story. I have "issues" with the lake scene and parts of the fireplace confessional. But two love scenes in Episode Two I quite simply adore and I was, am, very surprised that no one has yet mentioned so much as a whisper of either of them. Ah well, it's a new thread yet. Shall I have the privelege of introducing them?
First of all: The Packing Scene.
I just LOVE the packing scene on Coruscant. It's such a natural and sympathetic start to their relationship. Here we have Senator Padme easily falling back into their older friendship- into her interested compassion for the little boy Ani. And Anakin himself, after being extremely obnoxious to ObiWan in earlier scenes, has a chance to vent all his frustration in a very endearingly young manner akin to Luke's in A New Hope. Padme's gentle maturity and Anakin's shy eagerness both seemed a skillfully believable grown-up extension of their characters in Ep.1.
The dialogue too seemed both appropriate and poignant. After Anakin's developing outburst, "In some ways - in a lot of ways- I'm really ahead of him!...It's not fair!" and Padme's comment on mentors insights -"it's the only way we grow" - which is met with a weary silence by Anakin. "I know", he says, and his suddenly, tiredly wiser intonation exactly reminds me of Luke. I really liked the way Padme says in such a gentler, almost regretful tone: Don't try to grow up too fast, Ani.
HIM: But I am grown up! You said it yourself.
After that exchange, I found I didn't even feel the inclination to wince (despite all expectations) at the "Please don't look at me like that" and "Why not?" continuation; I even had a soft smile for them. May I add, a little off topic, that Padme's dress is gorgeously elegant? A personal favorite of mine!

My actually most favorite love scene - but second if we're being chronological: Parting Outside Lar's Homestead
Okay, so the scene IS perhaps just a quarter of a minute long. It doesn't matter. To me it was absolutely classic! The pale blue sky, the vast stretch of Tatooine desert, the elongated shadows of the two being thrown against the bleached walls of the homestead dome... The imagery is epic. But I really appreciated the mood. Anakin is very alone on Tatooine. He has distanced himself from Padme after the fireplace confession and he is further removed from the others because of the Force-given clairvoyance he has of his mother's pain. He speaks so formally to Padme in his brief, "Stay here. These are good people. You'll be safe here." (this is all off the top of my head, forgive me if I misquote) His dutiful concern towards her is very touching, as is his reserve. To me, that makes this Padme's confession scene. The yet-to-come "I truly, deeply love you" lost some of its power for me because so much of that truth seemed compressed in Padme's unwilling cry of "Anakin!" Like she's pleading against his distance, reminding him of thier bond, pitying him with all her heart, needing to speak out against his pain and isolation. She doesn't want him to go leaving her as his lady senator.
What makes this scene so perfect is the use of the Force tune. Out of nowhere it sweeps in and we KNOW we are witnessing a moment steeped in importance, a turning point in destiny, an imprinting of Fate. There they are standing right where their son will in Ep4, before him; she's proclaiming love and a tie to Ani's suffering, losing her own control. And he is saying farewell before riding off to a dark, dark destiny in which he too shall lose his control.
I don't know if I like this scene best because the romance is so subtle (no words needed) or because it is so obvious. Anyway, I'm actually becoming very very sentimental as I sit staring at this screen, so I had better leave now while my eyes are still dry and (I hope) my words are still coherent.

 

SabeforQueen - I got the chills reading your post - wow! I agree with the Tatooine scene where Padme hugs Anakin (got the chills during that scene too )

And you are right Obi-Can miracles to happen We can agree (& disagree too )

 

I don't remember who said it, but Padme jumping onto the reek and then kissing Anakin was probably my favorite moment in the entire film.

That would have been me who said that, anakin girl

Whenever a girl showed a sweet little piece of affection for me like that, it made me want to tear down mountains for her. No wonder Anakin goes ballistic when Padme falls out of the gunship!

 

SabeForQueen

That was a fantastic post.

The Tatooine scene is one of my favorites as well. Very poignant.

royalguard96

I love your signature.

 

SabeForQueen

Yep, that was a pretty good analysis of Anakin's Tatooine departure scene. Anakin did try to act aloof with Padme until she hugged him. He didn't try to stop that hug from what I recall.

 

He didn't try to stop it at all...but rather welcomed it, almost in relief. He seemed *so* alone in that scene..trying to do the right thing for the senator, but scared to death for his mom, while furiously thinking of way to not only find her, but save her as well. Then Padme comes to him, and he seems to almost sink into her embrace....as if she were his touchstone.

One of my favorite scenes as well. What a great discussion!

 

Speaking of poignancy, did anyone else think the freighter scene was heartbreaking? I think Portman and Hayden were both extremely convincing in this clip. Anakin is somehow so desperate and innocent in his argument for Jedi love. I felt exactly as Padme did; atleast, as I thought Padme felt in delivering her quiet "You've changed so much." Who is she sorrowing for? The passing of bright little Ani or the confused future of this new young man?

 

After that exchange, I found I didn't even feel the inclination to wince (despite all expectations) at the "Please don't look at me like that" and "Why not?" continuation; I even had a soft smile for them. May I add, a little off topic, that Padme's dress is gorgeously elegant? A personal favorite of mine!

Saberqueen,
I agree with your analysis up until this point. I did think it was a good scene because it succeeded in furthering the plot along with very compact and succinct points in their discussion.
1. Anakin is much more immature than his age would indicate and wishes to impress her by convincing her he's better than Obi-Wan (though I think he realizes himself that he's got a long way to go yet)
2.He feels he's living in Obi-Wan's shadow and desperately wishes to be out from under that burden especially now that Padme is there.
3.She sees Anakin as a child still and the romance has not yet begun.
4. Anakin realizes this and changes his technique. He doesn't want to be her friend, he wants to be her lover. He goes about changing this in a very clumsy way and is shot down. (As my 13 yr old son tells me being a friend is the worst place to be).

I did wince, and felt his sudden change from sweet confused boy to leering hormonal teenager uncomfortable and turned it from sweet to dark. Demonstrating how quickly Anakin loses his control.

Your prose on the Tatooine farewell scene was quite poetic and I agree that though it was a very simple scene it showed their feelings so much better than some of the Naboo scenes. You see her confusion, she's still fighting her feelings but her love for him is very obvious. She wants to stop him but feels she has no right. He has to find his mother in order to quieten the night mares and demons that are eating him up. I think it's very reminiscent of the scene between Shmi and little Anakin. You can see that it's killing Shmi to let her little boy go, but knows that he must find his own destiny. Thanks for reminding us of this one.

 

Thank you, Anakin_PadmeFan

I wonder what the source of Padme's change of heart towards Anakin was, and where it started. She clearly rejects him in the fireplace scene, yet the very next morning, she seems to be more drawn to him. Why is this? Did she spend that evening thinking about him and his feelings for her, and ended up reconsidering? She seems much more sympathetic towards him in the morning balcony scene, and her love for him is clearly growing when they reach Tatooine.

They seem to be going through changes within themselves on a parallel basis, though those changes are very different. After the fireplace scene, she seems to get more in touch with her loving and romantic side when it comes to Anakin. Yet, Anakin is starting to lose control of his emotions, culminating in the Tusken slaughter. It all starts at the fireplace scene, which to me, is why that scene may be a real turning point in the saga for both of them. If Padme doesn't go to Tatooine with him, does their bond grow? Do they get married? What will the ramifications hold in Ep. 3?

 

Obi-Can

1. Anakin is much more immature than his age would indicate and wishes to impress her by convincing her he's better than Obi-Wan (though I think he realizes himself that he's got a long way to go yet)

Yes, Anakin is not as mature as Obi-Wan and most of us can agree with that. However, what do you mean he is trying to convince her that he is better than Obi-Wan? What do you mean by "better" since IMO Anakin is more skilled than Obi-Wan in lightsaber dueling and a better pilot. Yes, Anakin is trying to impress her at this point, but I'm not so sure that he is trying to make her beleive that he is better than Obi-Wan.

2.He feels he's living in Obi-Wan's shadow and desperately wishes to be out from under that burden especially now that Padme is there.

Anakin does feel frsutrated that Obi-Wan is constantly ordering him around. He does want some independence to impress Padme because women don't seem to be too impressed with subordinates especially when that woman is a powerful senator.

3.She sees Anakin as a child still and the romance has not yet begun.

Defintely agree here! The relationshoip doesn't develop until later on.

4.Anakin realizes this and changes his technique. He doesn't want to be her friend, he wants to be her lover. He goes about changing this in a very clumsy way and is shot down. (As my 13 yr old son tells me being a friend is the worst place to be).

He was shot down rather quickly! I couldn't help but feel sorry for the guy. His smirk after he was shot down seems to indicate that he wasn't feeling too distressed. Your 13 yr old son is quite perceptive because being just a "friend" is not a good place to be in at all. I'm sure most guys can agree with that.

 

Yes, Anakin is not as mature as Obi-Wan and most of us can agree with that. However, what do you mean he is trying to convince her that he is better than Obi-Wan? What do you mean by "better" since IMO Anakin is more skilled than Obi-Wan in lightsaber dueling and a better pilot. Yes, Anakin is trying to impress her at this point, but I'm not so sure that he is trying to make her beleive that he is better than Obi-Wan.

Anakin-Player,
I wasn't comparing his maturity level to Obi-Wan's, of course OW is more mature he's 30 something. As I remember, excuse me I'm 30 something myself and my memory ain't what it used to be, he tells her something to the effect that "In some ways - in a lot of ways- I'm really ahead of him!

I see that as Anakin trying to convince Padme that he's better than Obi-Wan. Why else would he make that statement unless he feels that he isn't or that she may not realize it. It's basically showing his low self esteem or lack of confidence.

I won't get into who is more skilled since this is all subjective opinion and could start one of those Anakin vs Obi-Wan wars, which though fun could get us into trouble.

 

Obi-Can

I won't get into who is more skilled since this is all subjective opinion and could start one of those Anakin vs Obi-Wan wars, which though fun could get us into trouble.

Yep, good point better stay way from the Anakin vs. Obi-Wan debate!

I see that as Anakin trying to convince Padme that he's better than Obi-Wan. Why else would he make that statement unless he feels that he isn't or that she may not realize it. It's basically showing his low self esteem or lack of confidence.

I don't think he lacked self-esteem or confidence considering his antics on the speeder chase scene. Maybe he was just trying to impress her? Or he was just letting out his frustration to a non-Jedi because he can't criticize his master at the temple.

 

I don't think he lacked self-esteem or confidence considering his antics on the speeder chase scene. Maybe he was just trying to impress her? Or he was just letting out his frustration to a non-Jedi because he can't criticize his master at the temple.

I agree that on the surface Anakin seems very confident, even overly confident (do I dare say it-- arrogant). However, in other scenes he seems very unsure of himself and that his arrogance is a cover for a man who doesn't feel comfortable in the jedi world.

I think that even though he says he's better than Obi-Wan it seems to me he's trying to convince himself of that fact. He might believe that he's more skilled on a physical level, but he must realize that on a spiritual and emotional level his master has a lot to teach him.

I wonder why Anakin feels like he's being held back, Obi-Wan was about 23 when he bacame a knight and Anakin is only 19. He still has 4 years to go to be on the same track as Obi-Wan. Is this solely due to Palpatines undermining influence or is it because he feels that since he's the Chosen One he should be a knight sooner?

 

To me, Anakin isn't really comfortable in his own skin, he recognizes that he has abilities, yet he does not possess the emotional stability to acheive balance. He is very much a loner, always bucking the system--not really fitting in with the Jedi, but too special for life as a slave on Tatooine.

Padme doesn't treat him like a slave or as a student which is why, I think that he's like the proverbial moth drawn to her flame. She completes that which he lacks.

 

I wonder why Anakin feels like he's being held back, Obi-Wan was about 23 when he bacame a knight and Anakin is only 19. He still has 4 years to go to be on the same track as Obi-Wan. Is this solely due to Palpatines undermining influence or is it because he feels that since he's the Chosen One he should be a knight sooner?

I believe the novel stated he was 20, but that doesn't really make a big difference. I'm sure that Palpatine's influence is part of the reason. Who wouldn't develop an ego when the leader of the republic says that you will become the greatest jedi ever? The Chosen One status may also be a contributing factor, but I'm not sure Anakin even knows that he is considered the Chosen One by the JC. I also agree that he does act a bit arrogant in the beginning which probably turned Padme off. He lets go of his arrogant persona when they arrive in Naboo.

His arrogance or confidence whatever you prefer to call it is probably part of the process of maturing. Obi-Wan did display some attitude in TPM.

 

Obi-Can, you and I agree on something --I think Anakin's "in some ways I'm ahead of him" is actually Anakin trying to convince himself of this, not Anakin actually believing it.

As far as why Anakin thought Obi-Wan was holding him back--I think this is a combination of Palpatine's influence and the fact that being a Jedi is not all that Anakin thought it was cracked up to be. (Remember, his goal was to see every star system and free the slaves on Tatooine--not spend time meditating on why Mace went bald, or taking galactic history lessons from Yoda, who wrote the textbook based on his own memories. ) Palpatine has been feeding Anakin the "You're the most gifted Jedi I have ever known" line for quite awhile now, and considering Anakin doesn't get too much praise from Obi-Wan, and probably gets none from the Council, he takes Palpy's praise straight to heart.

I liked the scene when Padme is packing. It gave Anakin a chance to vent; Padme turned out to be a good listening ear and was able to put things into perspective for him. It also gave him a chance to express his feelings for the first time. I could get into a debate over what Padme's "it makes me feel uncomfortable" line meant--I think she was uncomfortable with her own unadmitted attraction to Anakin; I didn't think there was anything scary about the way he looked at her.

SabeForQueen: Very poignant description of the Tatooine scene, another favorite of mine.

 

3.She sees Anakin as a child still and the romance has not yet begun.
4. Anakin realizes this and changes his technique. He doesn't want to be her friend, he wants to be her lover. He goes about changing this in a very clumsy way and is shot down. (As my 13 yr old son tells me being a friend is the worst place to be).

I did wince, and felt his sudden change from sweet confused boy to leering hormonal teenager uncomfortable and turned it from sweet to dark. Demonstrating how quickly Anakin loses his control.

Obi-Can:
I'm not sure if we're in agreement or disagreement, so let me exposit a bit. Regarding whether the romance has begun, in my opinion the fact that Lucas wanted this to be a love story and the regrettable reality of Anakin & Padme's (relative) sparsity of screen time means the romance was there as far back as at their first Ep2 meeting. Certainly I don't believe Padme loved Anakin yet in The Packing Scene nor thought him more than a young boy (that doesn't happen until they are on the frieghter and she realizes how much he has changed), but Anakin has supposedly had very romantic feelings for her for some time. This means to me that in their Ep2 relationship there is always an element of romance, even if it's rather one-sided.
About wincing - basically, the reason why I didn't in the theater during any of the times I saw the film there, is because I had flinched, groaned, moaned and been terribly terribly annoyed by the whole exchange for months after I saw it debut in the Forbidden Love trailer. My opinion of a leering Anakin was very low, indeed, as low as my expectations of the complete scene. Thus my very pleased surprise at the actual result. For I found enough sympathy for Anakin's youth in the beginning of the scene to tolerate his teen-born awkwardness later on in the scene. If I'm making myself clear. Beholding his happiness at having Padme call him grown up and then his immediate, inadvertant outburst of childishness, causing her to revoke her opinion of his maturity... it was all rather smoothly done I thought. His clumsy "trying on" of the lover role was all of a piece with his teenage self-blindness. (Amn't I hard on my own age group?) He just didn't realize that he had made himself ridiculous and that he couldn't pull off a leer at such a moment. To me that was unexpectedly endearing, when put in context. Still, my praise for that segment of the scene is in the negative: to not wince isn't too much recommendation!

 

Jedi-Scholar,
I agree completely that his personality is completely unsuited for becoming a Jedi and that he never truly dedicated himself to their philosophy and principals. I think his advanced age also set him apart, he wasn't able to bond to their way of life. I think his insistance on becoming a Jedi is another example of his not being able to let go of things. In this case, it's the childhood dream of becoming a Jedi. I believe it's the main reason he falls to the darkside, if he could have given up this dream and accepted a secular life he would have been much happier.

Anakin-Player,
Who wouldn't? I think a Jedi would be able to resist such flattery. The fact that he can't and succumbs to the ego petting says a lot about Anakin. He obviously needs this at a very basic level, again due to his low self esteem. Not fitting in as a child can have lasting effects as well as living in slavery where your self worth is constantly in question.

Obi-Wan had a little bit of attitude in TPM but nothing compared to Anakin's. Where Obi-Wan's was respectful questioning of his Master's actions in private, Anakin's are angry and aggressive and in public. There is a 3 yr diff in age, but more importantly there is a huge difference in demeanor. Obi-Wan is confident and thoughtful and Anakin is intense, passionate and impatient. Kind of like the Rabbit and the Hare.

Anakin-girl,
Hey we agree again, I must be losing my touch. .

Very good point. Motivations are everything. Obi-Wan and most Jedi's are very young children when they go into the temple. They don't crave family relationships, they see the Jedi as their families. They are taught from the beginning that emotions are to be processed and released not savored and enjoyed. Their whole purpose in life is to serve the republic. How difficult would this be for a person like Anakin to accept, to give up all worldly and corporal desires.

 

Curious that Anakin, grounded in worldly values ends up being the vehicle for change.(Weird theological twist there) He's definitely out of balance, but the Jedi order is also out of balance. Heck the whole system is really screwed up, so something has to happen.

I think the whole thing is so compelling precisely because change only occurs as a result of tragedy--of which the love story seems to be the cornerstone. I am of the mind that we're watching a variant of a great tragic love unfold in AOTC (I'll leave the efficacy of this tragic love onscreen to those better able to make those judgments).


Here's a quote from Campbell's assesment of Tristan and Isolde which I think is relevant to AOTC and the problems of balance.

Joseph Campbell refers to the story of Tristan and Isolde as a "problem which leaves a tension between the social order--which is imported, implanted and put on the person--and the individual life. They don't go together."

IMO, this is exactly what is going on in AOTC. The Jedi code and individual experience are inherently at odds--there is no middle ground.

For Campbell the synthesis of individual experience and social order culminates in the quest for the Holy Grail and in SW it culminates in the quest of Anakin's son, Luke who redeems his father.

 

Jedi-Scholar,

Very eloquently said. I agree that the Political Power-structure is out of balance and to some extent the Jedi. The Jedi however are only out balance in the fact that they have lost their objective perspective. They are no longer in the game for the advancement of a fair and balanced government. They can't see that the government they support is corrupt and by their continued support are aiding the dark side. The Jedi doom the galaxy to a cruel dictatorship, because of their blind faith in the Republic.

The Seperatists in my view are analagous to the American Revolutionaries and the Republic is the British Empire. The British Empire in the beginning supported and aided the Settlers with protection and resources. HOwever that support soon became abusive and the American settlers recognizing that they were not being fairly treated rebelled. I believe the Seperatists become the freedom fighters in the OT and are the true heros.

However, it's not that their code or philosophies are suddenly wrong, afterall that code and philosophy has worked for 1000 years. I believe it's rather their unquestioned and unconditional support of the Republic that unbalances their power in the force. They are, in essence, handicapped by their total loyalty to the republic.

We all know how important it is that any government has checks and balances inbedded in its foundation to protect from such corruption.

 

Obi-Can--
Interesting comparison between the Separatists and the American colonists. I saw the obvious WW2 parallels with the arrangement of the clone armies, but I never thought to go further back in American history. My interest and focus has usually been literary, rather than historical, although I do think that there might be a little medieval history going on as well.
Have to do some research before I can feel confident with this though.

IMO, AOTC is so fascinating precisely because there are so many different angles to explore and ways of interpreting the events, characters, etc. It is this quality which has kept me entertained all summer--Every time I watched AOTC, I tried to examine it from a different angle. Now I'm trying to figure out how to get a good paper out of all these ruminations!!!!

Too bad I've already completed my coursework in literary criticsm--the usual assignment is to take and defend at least 3 different approaches to a particular work. Oh well.