The *Official* Love Story Thread [v2.0]

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by RidingMyCarousel, Oct 23, 2002.

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  1. Pooja Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 6
    Here's an essay I found a few minutes ago written by a Paul McDonald. I found it a well-written essay and felt the need to smack it here for you intellects that still see the wonderment and glory that is Star Wars and George Lucas:


    The galaxy is already in turmoil when Attack of the Clones begins. Hundreds of star systems have seceded from the Republic, and the Separatist movement they have formed is threatening nothing less than full-scale war. Meanwhile, a clone army is being created without anyone's knowledge, bounty hunters are staging assassinations, and even the Jedi have found their ability to use the Force diminished. Set against the backdrop of what is clearly one of the pivotal epochs in the galaxy, two young people are torn between passion and duty, and their love will have massive ramifications for the Republic.


    To be sure, this is not an easy romance to establish in this age of irony, and predictably, it has been one of the more criticized elements in the film. The relationship between Anakin Skywalker and Padmé Amidala is simply not compatible with most of the love stories that have dominated popular entertainment. It is best when viewed not against Sex in the City or even Titanic, but rather other tales that have a certain of mythic weight to them. When the first trailers debuted, I wrote an editorial for TheForce.net concerning the parallels between the Anakin and Padmé romance and the tradition of courtly love that came about in the Middle Ages. After seeing the film, this correlation is even stronger, for it gives fine expression to that particular manifestation of love in which it is tantamount to divine siezure.


    There were many kinds of courtly love that sprung up all over Europe, from the "minnesingers" wandering the German countryside telling tales of love, to the troubadours traveling from court to court in the south of France reciting lyrics about unrequited hearts. However, this was no mere sentimentality confined to emotional fantasy. As Joseph Campbell writes in "Creative Mythology," it was a new way of feeling, a veritable religion of love. Neither driven by indiscriminate desire nor the dictates of church and state, it was "a flame of love in which lust and religion are equally consumed."


    For the troubadours, this earth in all its pain was still their heaven. These are the days in which Dante had but one fleeting glance at Beatrice and yet fell in love with her instantly, and remained that way until his death. This is when the poet Gottfried van Strassburg was providing "bread for noble hearts" through the tragic tale of Tristan and Isolde. This is when the youthful affair of Heloise and Abelard ended in tragedy, yet after it was all over, her passion still had not dimmed as these words reflect -- "God knows, but at your command, I would have followed or preceded you to fiery places. For my heart is not with me but with thee."


    It is a rare thing today when young lovers challenge hell (or even have a hell by which to do so), but this is a fitting context for Anakin and Padmé. In the courtly tradition, even those who have found their way to the unmarked "grotto of love" the troubadours celebrated always faced the ordeal of the inevitable parting. Afterwards, many poems protested the watchman, for he announced the coming of the dawn, when the sweet embrace of night faded into the reality of lovers separated by the daylight world of proper society. Yet this undeniably fueled many of the more poignant lyrics. Gottfried spoke of the "dear pain" and "bitter sweetness" of such an experience, and the inseparability of joy and agony will certainly continue to play out for Anakin and Padmé.


    The themes of courtly love are forever a part of medieval literature, announcing themselves again and again in the tales of the age. Many of the old romances could go on for years without lovers even seeing one another, for there was almost always a situation that required them to be unrequited. Often, a knight would swear his allegiance to a certain lady,
  2. Levi8675309 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 8, 2003
    star 1
    It's just unbelievable. That this prestigous, intelligent, caring woman would love this guy. There must have been a lot of off-camera stuff, because the screentime dedicated to the love story just involved Anakin whining a lot and making a bunch of crappy jokes.

    And here's the clincher: Anakin kills all the sandpeople because they killed his mom. Great, I'm all for a little vengeance. But killing the women.... AND THE CHILDREN??!?!?! And Padme has NOTHING to say about this? She doesn't even flinch.

    I dunno, something about MURDERING CHILDREN seems, well, a little unattractive.
  3. Obi-Can Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2002
    star 3
    Levi,

    You are a master of understatement. Unattractive, You think!. LOL...

    The image of a handsome man murdering women and children has never been a turn on for me, but I'm weird that way.
  4. DarthBreezy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2002
    star 6
    Ah the reserection of the LS thread... As usual it is a haven for extreams... One lovely, well thought out post on courtly love tempered by the usual "Anakin is a moster who eats women and children" type post...

    *snicker*

    Not touching that aurgument with a ten foot Gafee stick....

  5. GirlJedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2000
    star 3
    OK I'm in here for intelligent conversation.

    Is the tragedy in Anakin & Padme's love story because they are like Guinevere and Lancelot? Circumstances and fate are against them? Yes they make their own choices, and are responsible for them, yet one cannot always choose who one falls in love with. What is that certain spark that you feel for someone but not another? Where does it come from? And Why?

    What is the origin of love? (I love Hedwig). To me, Anakin and Padme seem more carefully crafted as characters by Lucas to be yin/yang than say, Han & Leia.

    When they do get together, it is the beginning of the end. A tragic love that was meant to be.

    I do think the ending of AOTC was too fast - I wanted more scenes with Padme & Anakin after Geonosis, including the conversation with the decision to get married - that was a major step in their lives.

    There is the argument made here that "oh girls always like bad boys." However I don't see Anakin as being bad up until he loses control in the Tusken camp. And what in Anakin would Padme see before this to see him as "bad?" This is they guy who helped her get Naboo back from the Neimodians and who has been protecting her - approved by the Jedi Council.
  6. Levi8675309 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 8, 2003
    star 1
    Yes, yes, opposites certainly do attract. But seriously, Anakin is waaaaaaaaaaay too whiny. It's his personality, and I don't care who you are or what planet you're from or what sex you are, whining will not get you anywhere with a potential mate. I should know, I have tried.

    And once again, I gotta bring up the baby-killing spree that Anakin goes on. Now I can't even begin to fathom the Darth Vader of the OT killing innocent children. Granted, he blew up a planet or two where innocent children most likely died, but that's different. Anakin went out of his way to seek out and kill the kids in person, not to mention the gals. I mean, Jesus Christ, that is COLD. That's Hitler-type stuff.

    It's just a little much. Sure, the guy can be given to fits of rage but to just mindlessly slaughter innocents... I just wouldn't want to have anything to do with him. I also lose respect for Padme (or shall I say Eva Brawn) since not only does she not balk at such a grotesque deed, but she marries the dude. Plus, it brings down Vader's coolness level a bit.

    I just don't see how these two could fall in love with something like that occuring.
  7. The_Abstract Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2002
    star 4
    "Now I can't even begin to fathom the Darth Vader of the OT killing innocent children. Granted, he blew up a planet or two where innocent children most likely died, but that's different. Anakin went out of his way to seek out and kill the kids in person, not to mention the gals. I mean, Jesus Christ, that is COLD. That's Hitler-type stuff."

    [face_laugh]

    This has to be one of the funniest statements I've ever read. Darth Vader isn't as evil as lil' Ani Skywalker? Wow. And to have more sympathy for a violent, remorseless tribe of savages, who kidnapped and tortured the boy's mother and killed 20-odd farmers in the rescue party, then a peaceful, democratic planet with no army or defense system.

    Vader stood by and watched an ENTIRE PLANET blow up. BILLIONS OF LIVES to say the least. Probably HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of children minimum. And you shrug this off?

    Not to sound outraged here, but what kind of moral construct are you working from here??

    :confused:



  8. DarthBreezy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2002
    star 6
    Granted, he blew up a planet or two where innocent children most likely died, but that's different.

    Errrr, before this discussion gets re-directed by a mod for being OT....

    Tarkin Gave the order to "Fire when Ready"... Vader had nothing to do with the Distruction of Alderann (*Note "This Technilogical terror you've created" is VADER'S discription of the Death Star...)

    I'm leaving the rest of the debunking to Absy... he can knock down illogical aurguments at 100 paces and not even get winded! :p
  9. Obi-Can Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2002
    star 3
    I see what Levi is saying. It takes a mindless cold-blooded killer to do the hands on kind of massacreing that Anakin did in the Tusken camp. To make it worse this hands on murdering was done to women and children, which any soldier knows is off limits and unpardonable and thats not even considering that he's supposedly been trained to be a peace loving Jedi. Compassion, as we are explained by Anakin are the hallmark of the Jedi (oops, he forgot that part during the bloodbath).

    Vader, however, did torture personally his own daughter, Han and Chewbacca. Therefore, it seems that this action is not out of character in the least.

    To get back on topic: The question, which has been bantered around here for longer than I care to think about it; what the heck would possess a woman who is dedicated to peace, civil rights for humans and non humans to accept this abominal act against innocents without batting an eyelash (yes children in any capacity are innocents)? She even marries the guy a few days later. This way she pretty much becomes an accomplice to the act and the cover up.

    Since, I see this as so illogical and out of character for Padme I can't comment on the whys. I'll leave it to the rest of you to explain the mythology, psychology or psychosis of this one.

    I personally think its just bad writing. Would have been better for Anakin not to tell her till after the marriage. Then what could she have done, she's pretty much stuck and no one could blame her for sticking by her husband.
  10. waheennay Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2000
    star 4
    I just keeping thinking they were doomed from the start and that makes me feel bad for both of them.
  11. GirlJedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2000
    star 3
    i came in here to talk about the Love story, not Anakin, violence and the Dark Side.

    The love story, its relevance, meaning, and mythological underpinnings. If you don't understand it - that is why Padme falls in love, then perhaps you may not feel inclined to discuss the Love Story.

    Where do I begin? is anyone else really interested in that part? If so I'd love to hear about it.

    Such as the difference between agape, eros and fraternity.
  12. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    GirlJedi if you really want to talk about the Love story then go to this thread.

    A/P Love Story I don't know if your a fan of the love story or not. But in that thread we talk about the love story all the time. Well that in the acters who play Anakin and Padme. But that is where you can go to talk about the different parts of the love story.
  13. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    Obi-can-

    You could ask similar questions like what could possibly led Luke to believe that he can save his father inspite of all the crimes that Anakin has committed as Darth Vader and why doesn't he do what Yoda and Obi-wan intended him to do like destroying Vader and the Emperor?

    The answer is simple: Both he and his mother, Padme have showed compassion to Anakin and it is defined by Anakin himself as unconditional love. If noone in the real world can show compassion to their boy/girlfriend despite whatever sin they committed, then they never really loved that person to begin with.

    Now, Padme does NOT accept what Anakin did to the women and children but she does understand why he did it. Anakin's mother was killed by the Tuskens and he wanted revenge but he had a slight case of temporal insanity along the way. Despite not seeing each other in 10 years, Padme has known Anakin since he was a boy and she never remembered him for being a mass murderer but as a little boy who helped her afford a new hyperdrive engine for her ship, saved her people and her planet from the Trade Federation, and for being a new Jedi.

    She can't sympathize with the Tuskens because she doesn't know anything about them aside from what she saw in the Podrace and what Cliegg Lars told her so it's easier for her to feel for Anakin.

    Padme was already in love with Anakin by the time they reunited so it makes sense why she would marry him.

    Darthbreezy-

    Letting Tarkin blow up Alderaan still makes Vader responsible because he is suppose to be 2nd in command of the Empire and yet, he did nothing to stop Tarkin from giving the order.
    Sure, Vader didn't like the Death Star but he didn't object to it's usage.
  14. Falls_the_Shadow Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2002
    star 3
  15. Obi-Can Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2002
    star 3
    PMT99,

    You could ask similar questions like what could possibly led Luke to believe that he can save his father inspite of all the crimes that Anakin has committed as Darth Vader and why doesn't he do what Yoda and Obi-wan intended him to do like destroying Vader and the Emperor?

    I think you misunderstood me. I understand why Padme believes she can help Anakin, perhaps even save him from himself. I'm sure Obi-Wan is also going to believe this (as evidenced by DV saying in the OT, Obi-Wan thought as you did once). However, wanting to help a troubled individual is different then marrying them. No logical sane person would marry a murderer if they knew before hand that person was a murderer. Especially if that person had had no counseling or rehabilitation. Padme is a logical intelligent woman, a highly placed galactic leader who I assume is educated and worldly enough not to be overrun by hormones or teenage rebellion. I just find it totally unbelievable that she would/could forget all that she believes in to do something so irrational as marrying a murderer. I don't think she would stop loving him or abandon him, but marrying him makes no sense to me. It in no way helps his situation, if anything it confuses and hurts him more as well as feeds his guilt and internal conflict to whom he should devote his life. She is making matters worse.

    The answer is simple: Both he and his mother, Padme have showed compassion to Anakin and it is defined by Anakin himself as unconditional love. If noone in the real world can show compassion to their boy/girlfriend despite whatever sin they committed, then they never really loved that person to begin with.

    Compassion does not equate to marriage. Does she have so little self esteem that she thinks she deserves such a flawed human being. Their are just some acts that cannot be overcome by love, murder being one of them. He needs help not a shoulder to cry on.

    Now, Padme does NOT accept what Anakin did to the women and children but she does understand why he did it. Anakin's mother was killed by the Tuskens and he wanted revenge but he had a slight case of temporal insanity along the way. Despite not seeing each other in 10 years,

    She can't sympathize with the Tuskens because she doesn't know anything about them aside from what she saw in the Podrace and what Cliegg Lars told her so it's easier for her to feel for Anakin.

    She is a senator, someone who fights for the downtrodden all over the galaxy, including aliens. Gungans aren't human and she helped them get recognized by her planet and the Republic. I think she is far more intelligent and compassionate then you give her credit for. If she is so small minded that she can't see violent aliens as sentient beings deserving of the compassion you give her credit for then perhaps she deserves Anakin as a husband. Yes they are shooting wildly at the racers in the pod-race, but they didn't hit or kill anyone that she saw.

    Padme was already in love with Anakin by the time they reunited so it makes sense why she would marry him.

    I disagree. It makes no sense why she would marry him, after a few days and after he murders women and children. I think many of us have been in love with someone who we've changed our minds about because of one event. We may still love them but we aren't stupid enough to marry them.

    To me the responsible and most compassionate action she could have take was to tell Obi-Wan what happened and try to get him the help he so obviously needed. HOw could any mature adult think that by marrying a man that is forbidden to marry, who obviously has mental and emotional problems is helping the situation.

    Again, bad writing that could have been easily resolved by keeping the massacre from her till after the marriage. Otherwise, the only explanation for the marriage is that Padme has her own major emotional issues and character flaws that rival Anakin's.


  16. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    Obi-can you keep calling Anakin a mass murderer. You keep saying he had no right to kill the Tuskens.

    But ever time someone posts or even says:

    But they killed Anakin's Mother you shrug it off. When someone says they killed 26 people who went out to save her you shrug it off. Why? Why are the Tuskens better then Anakin Mother. She did nothing to them. She jsut went out to pick mushrooms. On her way back thet kidnap her. What right did the Tuskens have to do that? You say that he should have killed the women. Well why didn't any of the Tusken women help Anakin's Mother. they coudl have saved her. But they did not. So the are gulit of help killing her by not doing any thing.

    Remember in ANH when Luke went to take a look at the Tuskens? The attacked him for NO REASON[/b}. Obi-wan saved him then got the HELL out of there. He did not want to stay there because he knew they woudl be back to kill them. So what did Obi-wan, Anakin's Mother, and Luke do to the Tuskens? Why is it ok for the Tuskens to kill 26 men going out to save Anakin's mom? Why is it ok for them to hurt Luke then edn up coming back with more to kill Luke and Obi-wan. Ben knew what woudl happen.

    These are evil people. GL made them that why. I do not feel sorry for people who kill and hurt others for no reason. I will never feel sorry for the Tuskens. Maybe if they did nto hurt people like Anakin's mom for no reason then yeah I might be sorry. But form watching TPM, AOTC, and ANH. Well I'm gald Anakin did what he did. Cliegg was right they are mindless monsters. Padme heard ever thing that Cliegg said of how Shmi went out and picked mushrooms and was kidnapped. Please remember what Cliegg said. Please remember that Shmi did nothing to the Tuskens. Please don't shrug off what they did to Shmi and 26 men who went to save her. Please don't forget what happened in ANH to Luke who did nothign to them. Please remember why Obi-wan wanted to leave before more came.

    Edit 1: Also I have a little saying I like to use. Don't show Mercy to those who don't know how to give Mercy to others. The Tuskens did not show Shmi Mercy so why should Anakin? The Tuskens would just keep going out and doing the same thing over and over again.

    Edit 2: Also it's to bad the Tuskens showed Shmi no compassion. It's sad that not one Tusken came to her add. It's sad that they showed no compassion to the men who went out after Shmi. To bad they had no compassion for Luke. To bad they woudl have not showen Luke Mercy. Heck they would not have even showen Obi-wan Mercy or compassion hd Luke and Obi-wan stayed.
  17. The Butler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 1999
    star 4
    I have to agree with Anidanami (btw, where did you get this name? It's pretty fun to type.) I'd be a bit disturbed if Anakin had his mom die in his arms and then walked away from his mom's murderers. Even Obi-Wan, the paragon of the Jedi, went berserk when Maul killed his Master. Plus, Padme does see Anakin break down during his confession--her heart would go out to this sobbing young Jedi.

  18. Obi-Can Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2002
    star 3
    Again I don't shrug off the murder of his mother or the killing of 26 settlers. However, you also should not shrug off the fact the Tusken children are not responsible for these killings. This directly correllates with Indian Wars where Indian war parties would attack settler villages and kidnap women and children. It's terrible and horrific, however, it doesn't make the massacreing of the Indian villages including women and children any less horrific.

    Just as we look back on these times and events with horror and disgust, I look on what Anakin did as being just as horrific. He has less excuse than the American calvary/army because he has been trained for 10years by the Jedi and before that by his mother to show compasssion and love for all beings whether they deservie it or not.

    It is murder of innocent children and nothing you say nor how you rationalize it makes it any less so. Furthermore, we don't hear any where in the story that the Tuskens have killed human children.

    There is no possible way that Padme, being in her position and how she has been portrayed thus far would accept this and marry Anakin, IMO. Again, I can't change the story or how its written. It is what it is. My only point is that its totally and completely unbelievable as it was written.

    I was really looking to see if there was a psychological/mythological reason for her action besides just saying that what he did wasn't that bad and Padme would see it as "Oh well he slipped, he's only human afterall. Lets order china." This seems to belittle the whole dramatic horrifiying scene of the massacre and the confession when he informs not only Padme but us the audience "the women and children as well". If it's no big deal and its all justified why bother, then the whole value of the story is even further diminished. It is a huge deal, it's Anakin's falling, it is murder and it's what the PT is about. IMO of course.
  19. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    Well for me this is know a mute issue. I'm not going around and aroudn with this. If you want to believe he's nothing more then a killer ok. I don't believe this so I'm not going to post any more on this thread.
  20. Obi-Can Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2002
    star 3
  21. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    clever response.

    You don't get it. All just keep saying the same thing over and over again. i'm not going to do that. I'm nto going to keep going over the samething. So I just won't post in here. I and others who liek the Love Story know where we stand. We know why Anakin did what he did.

    On like you I don't use real life to defend the Tuskens. I use what I saw a ANH, TPM, and what I read in the EU. The Tuskens are evil. But again I'm goign to go over this I'm moving on. I have the defenders thread.

    If you want to post saying this is another clever response. Go ahead but I will not keep posting the same things over and over. I will not keepign post about what happened in ANH, TPM, and the EU. So goodbye.
  22. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    I see what Levi is saying. It takes a mindless cold-blooded killer to do the hands on kind of massacreing that Anakin did in the Tusken camp. To make it worse this hands on murdering was done to women and children, which any soldier knows is off limits and unpardonable and thats not even considering that he's supposedly been trained to be a peace loving Jedi. Compassion, as we are explained by Anakin are the hallmark of the Jedi (oops, he forgot that part during the bloodbath).

    We should probably keep this on topic, this thread has gotten derailed on the Tusken thing before. This thread is about the Love Story, not the Tusken Raider issue, whatever you're views are, some of this can be seen as baiting. Not a rare thing for this thread... Lighten up guys.

  23. DarthBreezy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2002
    star 6
    Yeah yeah.. the "Tusken women and children"...
    And the Death Star daycare... and the end of Endor (there is a great article about what enviormental effect the distruction of the Death Star had on Endor's moon somewhere)...
    It's a one note song that Ani-bashers use over and over again... Padme was in love with Anakin almost from Day one... last word on the Tusken raiders.. with all the whining about "tusken children" you forget that the famers who went after the raiders did so out of fear for their OWN families.. "Us Next"... the 16 that didn't come back left could have left Orphans...
  24. The_Abstract Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2002
    star 4
    yep, this one is great too.

    [face_love]

  25. AnakinSlave2 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2003
    A recent edition of Star Wars Insider (the one with Aayla Secura on the cover) posted some very disturbing facts on the Tusken Raiders. I'm not going to re-print them here, go read for yourself. However, it is my wish that after reading the article that some of you finally come to your senses and realize that anymore comparisons between the Tuskens and Native Americans are an abomination and need to be stopped, permanently. If anything, it's merely become a "quick fix" to pad your argument against Anakin's actions. So knock it off, please. For that matter just knock off the whole discussion already. It's really getting boringto say the least. And the aforementioned Star Wars Insider article should end it once and for all.

    Oh and just in case you didn't know, that's my opinion.
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